What if terrorists would do this in the US?

Jean Paul · Post by **Jean Paul** » 2004-09-03 07:02pm

What if heavily-armed Muslim fighters took over an elementary school in the US, taking hundreds of kids hostage and wiring the place with mines and bombs?

For the sake of argument we'll say that they're demanding the release of the Camp Delta captives or something.

Post by **fgalkin** » 2004-09-03 07:04pm

How would a band of heavily-armed Islamists even get into the US, much less evade detection for themselves and their weapons?

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

Col. Crackpot · Post by **Col. Crackpot** » 2004-09-03 07:05pm

they die.

south of the Mason-Dixon line they squeal like a pig, then they die.

Soul Ripper · Post by **Soul Ripper** » 2004-09-03 07:11pm

It's more likely to happen here then in the US, in the US they dont have a lot of ways of smugling weapons and explosives into, but if it does happen the US Army (this is my opinion) will take more care not to harm any hostages more then the russians.... Not saying they dont care, of course they care about the hostages lifes its just could of been handled better without getting houndrends of kids injured and killed.

Post by **fgalkin** » 2004-09-03 07:11pm

Really? Are you saying that North Ossetians who have been living the past 10 years while being raided by Chechnes, and who have Ak-47 in every house or so are somehow inferior to a bunch of gun-totting rednecks who never fired a gun at human being in their lives? if they couldn't do shit, neither could the Americans. The Chechens are seriously scary

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

Soul Ripper · Post by **Soul Ripper** » 2004-09-03 07:16pm

The chechens are just like what the palastiniens do to us here :\ they dont give a damn about human life not if its a kid, a baby or anyone else...
And the odds of this happening in the US are low I think becuase theres no country near them that support terrorists and can provide them with weapons, they have to smugle the weapons into the US.

YT300000 · Post by **YT300000** » 2004-09-03 07:18pm

fgalkin wrote:gun-totting rednecks who never fired a gun at human being in their lives?

That's another important point. Many (if not most) people will just freeze up and be unable to kill someone unless they have proper training. Which many there won't.

Zed Snardbody · Post by **Zed Snardbody** » 2004-09-03 07:25pm

It wouldn't be pretty thats for damn sure.

I have images of a Wacko esque stand off with a botched operation to go in. Huge public out cry as federal agents die, and the children right along with them.

US law enforcements lacks the ability to deal with what we saw in Russia. Granted there have been hostage situations, but outside of the movies it seems to be disgruntled spouses with family members. They can ussualy be talked down or tricked.

Hard line terrorists aren't going to respond well to our run of the mill negotiators.

The US civillian is unwilling to accept hostage casualties which will bind the hands of law enforcement.

It will be ugly, it will be bloody, and it will have long lasting effects on law enforcment should this ever happen.

jegs2 · Post by **jegs2** » 2004-09-03 07:28pm

Don't think the Army would have anything to do with it. The FBI/ATF would probably work in conjunction with local law enforcement to end the standoff. IMO, casualties would be unavoidable, but a lightning-strike assault from multiple directions in the dead of night (assault teams and cordon force using night vision devices) would probably serve to mimimize those casualties.

Can't believe the Russians didn't cordon off the school. Nobody should have been able to get in or out of that school without being immediately detained or filled with holes.

RedImperator · Post by **RedImperator** » 2004-09-03 08:24pm

Soul Ripper wrote:It's more likely to happen here then in the US, in the US they dont have a lot of ways of smugling weapons and explosives into, but if it does happen the US Army (this is my opinion) will take more care not to harm any hostages more then the russians.... Not saying they dont care, of course they care about the hostages lifes its just could of been handled better without getting houndrends of kids injured and killed.

Um, the terrorists fired an RPG at an ambulance they allowed into the courtyard to pick up the bodies there, and then detonated themselves and the explosives on the building's structural members. If the Russians hadn't moved when they did, all or almost all of the hostages would have been killed. Their hand was forced and they performed admirably--as well as or better than we could have.

Melkor · Post by **Melkor** » 2004-09-03 09:14pm

YT300000 wrote: That's another important point. Many (if not most) people will just freeze up and be unable to kill someone unless they have proper training. Which many there won't.

We're talking about real life here not a bad movie.

Lord of the Farce · Post by **Lord of the Farce** » 2004-09-03 09:39pm

Actually, isn't it pretty easy in the USA to buy yourself bulletproof vests, nightvision goggles, and other such equipment? If the hypothetical terrorists of this thread's scenario thinks of getting these things, wouldn't that contribute to making things tougher for whoever that ends up having to deal with them?

Also, how difficult would it be for civilians to get their hands on automatic weapons (edit: or weapons that could be modified to be automatic)? Smuggling weapons to the States from another country on themselves is probably the last thing the terrorists would do.

jegs2 · Post by **jegs2** » 2004-09-03 09:54pm

Lord of the Farce wrote:Actually, isn't it pretty easy in the USA to buy yourself bulletproof vests, nightvision goggles, and other such equipment? If the hypothetical terrorists of this thread's scenario thinks of getting these things, wouldn't that contribute to making things tougher for whoever that ends up having to deal with them?

The NVG's available on the open market are several generations behind those used by elite LE agencies. The proposed assault in the dead of night would happen somewhere around 0230, as that is the time when the terrorists would be least alert. The assault would commense immediately upon cutting all power to the target area. Combine that with Psyops blasting noise into the target area to stack confusion on the enemy, tactical use of flash-bangs and CS gas (if the terrorists are using NVG's, flash-bangs would really play havoc on them). The idea of a multi-pronged assault under such conditions is to bring shock and overwhelming force onto the enemy, allowing them mimimal reaction time.

Lord of the Farce wrote:]Also, how difficult would it be for civilians to get their hands on automatic weapons (edit: or weapons that could be modified to be automatic)? Smuggling weapons to the States from another country on themselves is probably the last thing the terrorists would do.

Automatic weapons wouldn't be that hard to obtain, but a well-planned assualt would allow the enemy little opportunity to place effective fires on members of the assault force.

Elheru Aran · Post by **Elheru Aran** » 2004-09-03 09:55pm

Lord of the Farce wrote: Also, how difficult would it be for civilians to get their hands on automatic weapons (edit: or weapons that could be modified to be automatic)? Smuggling weapons to the States from another country on themselves is probably the last thing the terrorists would do.

Last I knew, you could get automatic weapons on mail-order.

One little, tiny problem... you've gotta have a Federal Firearms License. To do that, you've gotta have extensive background checks and such; the same for any parts that can be used to convert weapons to automatic, such as receiver parts.

Of course, there are undoubtedly illegal means of obtaining these weapons... however, since these people would be operating in a fairly limited time frame (unless they were planted years before) because they'd naturally be suspected by immigration agents (a sad fact, but it happens). Eyes would be kept on them for awhile and every now and then as well. If they poked their noses near a pawnshop or whatever, they could expect SWAT teams to show up at their front door the next day.

Of course, all this is contingent upon being recognized as being from Chechenya or whatever... IIRC, Chechens could probably pass as Russian. Now, if they're Arab, and travelling in large groups, that's another story...

But then, what do I know? That bit about the FFL, though, is for certain-- I've got family down here in the South, who are avid firearms fanciers; none of them (that I know of) has any automatic weapons for that reason.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2004-09-03 09:58pm

jegs2 wrote:Don't think the Army would have anything to do with it. The FBI/ATF would probably work in conjunction with local law enforcement to end the standoff. IMO, casualties would be unavoidable, but a lightning-strike assault from multiple directions in the dead of night (assault teams and cordon force using night vision devices) would probably serve to mimimize those casualties.

While FBI and ATF teams (as well as every SWAT team in a thousand miles) would be brought in, I think there would still be a place there for military special forces. Obviously you want every body you can get to help out in case there's an emergency situation inside, and the special forces teams have superb training for handling hostage situations, albeit on a smaller scale.

Can't believe the Russians didn't cordon off the school. Nobody should have been able to get in or out of that school without being immediately detained or filled with holes.

I agree, but it seems like they didn't have enough people on the ground to do something like that.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-09-03 09:59pm

jegs2 wrote:Automatic weapons wouldn't be that hard to obtain, but a well-planned assualt would allow the enemy little opportunity to place effective fires on members of the assault force.

If they've got explosives strapped to their bodies and they've wired the structural members to blow, they don't need a lot of time. Not to mention the fact that those with automatic weapons could rake the gymnasium floor with fire, killing scores of hostages in a very short period of time. And of course, the fact that they would be reluctant to launch any such operation until their hands are forced, because once an operation like that commences, any casualties incurred during the operation may be blamed on the government. Look at how some people still think the government was responsible for all those who died at Waco.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2004-09-03 10:10pm

To subdue such a situation with zero or near zero casualties is nothing short of amazing work. The reality is often nothing like that and the chances for a terrorist to take down an innocent or two before they themselves are terminated are many. Even with the likes of gas attacks, helicopter insertions, night-vision, thermal-imaging, heartbeat sensing, flashbangs and arsenals of weaponry, you can't deny the hostage takers have the advantages to begin with if they think it out. I'm impressed the Russian school incident didn't end a total disaster (though, admittedly, many will see it as one already as some people died).

If negotiations fail, you'd better be damn sure your team knows the ins and outs of the building and as much as possible on the tangoes inside and what they're packing. If you move a SWAT team into an explosive laden trap, you've just fucked over more lives for nothing.

It's even worse when your terrorists are unafraid of death and even see it as a reward so long as they harm your people.

Dennis Toy · Post by **Dennis Toy** » 2004-09-03 10:54pm

.call robocop and watch the action..

YT300000 · Post by **YT300000** » 2004-09-03 11:13pm

Melkor wrote:
YT300000 wrote: That's another important point. Many (if not most) people will just freeze up and be unable to kill someone unless they have proper training. Which many there won't.
We're talking about real life here not a bad movie.

Exactly. Which is why I posted that as a response to the unrealistic idea of random citizens breaking in and taking out the terrorists.

aerius · Post by **aerius** » 2004-09-03 11:27pm

Ideally you cordon off the area with police, FBI, and all those alphabet soup agencies. Negotiate and stall for as much time as you can. Then you send in SEAL Team 6 which is the counter terrorism team, this is exact type of situation they're trained to deal with. Much bloodshed follows as all the terrorists end up dead along with some of the hostages and maybe a few SEALs.

Realistically, you're looking at a clusterfuck of epic proportions as the various agencies fight over who's in charge and what to do. The area gets cordoned off and they negotiate and argue. And when they are finally forced to try a rescue operation it's bungled with massive casualties among the hostages & rescue team due to inadequate training, tactics, and intel.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-09-03 11:28pm

John McClane, where art thou?

aerius · Post by **aerius** » 2004-09-03 11:33pm

Darth Wong wrote:John McClane, where art thou?

John McClane can only kill Germans, unless these Muslim terrorists are German he's SOL.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-09-03 11:34pm

aerius wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:John McClane, where art thou?
John McClane can only kill Germans, unless these Muslim terrorists are German he's SOL.

Do not underestimate John McClane. The man is a master of improvisation, and took out a whole American renegade commando team in Die Hard 2.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2004-09-03 11:49pm

Darth Wong wrote:
aerius wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:John McClane, where art thou?
John McClane can only kill Germans, unless these Muslim terrorists are German he's SOL.
Do not underestimate John McClane. The man is a master of improvisation, and took out a whole American renegade commando team in Die Hard 2.

Only directly killed one of them. The rest were killed when the plane exploded.

Dennis Toy · Post by **Dennis Toy** » 2004-09-03 11:51pm

aerius wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:
John McClane, where art thou?

John McClane can only kill Germans, unless these Muslim terrorists are German he's SOL.

Do not underestimate John McClane. The man is a master of improvisation, and took out a whole American renegade commando team in Die Hard 2.

make a team out of John McClane, the Terminator, Robocop, Nick Kang and the dude from GTA and its all over for them evil muslim terrorists.[/quote]