Russia: Terrorists made woman choose between her children

[Master of Ossus]

Oh I'm sorry, I didn't realize that pointless emoting was de rigeur now. Of course I feel badly about the children. How does that change the fact that all of the rage being directed against Chechnya after this is like an echo of the calls to attack Iraq over 9/11?

Since only a tiny fraction of people here called for an assault on IRAQ as a result of September 11, the point is all but moot. Moreover, if that was in fact your original goal, there would have been a better way to point out a parallel than simply writing off the discussion as a "the US foreign policy sucks" statement. While the connection exists, it was poorly established in your original post.

[Darth Wong]

You also didn't realize political gloating in this thread would be a bad idea. I recommend you delete everything after the OP and see if we can start this thread right. You screwed up.

How is it "political gloating" to point out that people are now employing the same shitty logic against Chechnya that they employed against Iraq? Is Chechnya now off-topic for this thread?

No, but Iraq and Bush-bashing should be. I think you should apologize. This thread isn't about revenge, its about a crime against nature, forcing a mother to chose.

So what kind of discussion do you feel should be generated by this thread? Two hundred near-identical responses saying "what horrible monsters" and "fuck the terrorists?"

[CaptainChewbacca]

How is it "political gloating" to point out that people are now employing the same shitty logic against Chechnya that they employed against Iraq? Is Chechnya now off-topic for this thread?

No, but Iraq and Bush-bashing should be. I think you should apologize. This thread isn't about revenge, its about a crime against nature, forcing a mother to chose.

So what kind of discussion do you feel should be generated by this thread? Two hundred near-identical responses saying "what horrible monsters" and "fuck the terrorists?"

That was probably the OPs intent. Either that or an exploration of what a difficult choice that would have been to make. You have a couple kids, could you choose one to live and one to die?

[Darth Wong]

Oh I'm sorry, I didn't realize that pointless emoting was de rigeur now. Of course I feel badly about the children. How does that change the fact that all of the rage being directed against Chechnya after this is like an echo of the calls to attack Iraq over 9/11?

Since only a tiny fraction of people here called for an assault on IRAQ as a result of September 11, the point is all but moot. Moreover, if that was in fact your original goal, there would have been a better way to point out a parallel than simply writing off the discussion as a "the US foreign policy sucks" statement. While the connection exists, it was poorly established in your original post.

I was being sarcastic. While it's true that I could have been more direct about it, I sort of expected to be able to discuss the connection (or lack thereof) with all of the people screaming about Chechnya before a couple of self-righteous dipshits (particular CaptainFuckhead) decided to use it as an excuse to claim some kind of personal moral superiority.

[fgalkin]

I find it disconcerting that your first impulse upon reading the OP was not one of compassion, but on how to further your own political beliefs and impress them onto others. Kinda sociopathic if you ask me.

Oh I'm sorry, I didn't realize that pointless emoting was de rigeur now. Of course I feel badly about the children. How does that change the fact that all of the rage being directed against Chechnya after this is like an echo of the calls to attack Iraq over 9/11?

How many people called for the invasion of Iraq after 9/11? Oh, that's righ, NO ONE. The US invaded Afghanistan, not Iraq, in case you need to refresh you memory.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Darth Wong]

That was probably the OPs intent. Either that or an exploration of what a difficult choice that would have been to make. You have a couple kids, could you choose one to live and one to die?

Then to be quite blunt, there was either no point at all to it or it should have been put in a different forum. One of the reasons we have these "no me-tooing" rules is that we DON'T want the kind of pointless thread where you have two hundred nearly identical responses. And your bullshit attempt to use this as some kind of "look at how morally bankrupt you must be not to engage in the expected behaviour!" was just a lot of hot air and you know it.

[CaptainChewbacca]

Oh I'm sorry, I didn't realize that pointless emoting was de rigeur now. Of course I feel badly about the children. How does that change the fact that all of the rage being directed against Chechnya after this is like an echo of the calls to attack Iraq over 9/11?

Since only a tiny fraction of people here called for an assault on IRAQ as a result of September 11, the point is all but moot. Moreover, if that was in fact your original goal, there would have been a better way to point out a parallel than simply writing off the discussion as a "the US foreign policy sucks" statement. While the connection exists, it was poorly established in your original post.

I was being sarcastic. While it's true that I could have been more direct about it, I sort of expected to be able to discuss the connection (or lack thereof) with all of the people screaming about Chechnya before a couple of self-righteous dipshits (particular CaptainFuckhead) decided to use it as an excuse to claim some kind of personal moral superiority.

I claim no moral superiority. What I do claim is a moral sensitivity. That you are resorting to sixth-grade name calling says to me that you are a bit ashamed of yourself and are trying to deflect attention. Just appologize and delete these posts already.

[Darth Wong]

How many people called for the invasion of Iraq after 9/11? Oh, that's righ, NO ONE. The US invaded Afghanistan, not Iraq, in case you need to refresh you memory.

Nice nitpick. Yes, they didn't call for it IMMEDIATELY afterwards. Instead, they waited until they were sort of finished with Afghanistan and THEN called for it. How does this affect the point? Not at all. Try again.

[Master of Ossus]

I was being sarcastic. While it's true that I could have been more direct about it, I sort of expected to be able to discuss the connection (or lack thereof) with all of the people screaming about Chechnya.

Fair enough.

[Darth Wong]

I claim no moral superiority. What I do claim is a moral sensitivity.

No, what you are claiming is that anyone who doesn't respond in the prescribed manner must have no compassion, moron.

That you are resorting to sixth-grade name calling says to me that you are a bit ashamed of yourself and are trying to deflect attention. Just appologize and delete these posts already.

Apologize for what? Trying to discuss something instead of pointless emoting repetition? This from an idiot who thinks that anyone who doesn't engage in the proper amount of emoting repetition must have no compassion?

[fgalkin]

How many people called for the invasion of Iraq after 9/11? Oh, that's righ, NO ONE. The US invaded Afghanistan, not Iraq, in case you need to refresh you memory.

Nice nitpick. Yes, they didn't call for it IMMEDIATELY afterwards. Instead, they waited until they were sort of finished with Afghanistan and THEN called for it. How does this affect the point? Not at all. Try again.

No, they finished with Afghanistan, then Bush began his propaganda campaign, and a year later, he began the war. Nobody thought about invading Iraq until Bush decided he wants to finish what his dad started.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[CaptainChewbacca]

I claim no moral superiority. What I do claim is a moral sensitivity.

No, what you are claiming is that anyone who doesn't respond in the prescribed manner must have no compassion, moron.

That you are resorting to sixth-grade name calling says to me that you are a bit ashamed of yourself and are trying to deflect attention. Just appologize and delete these posts already.

Apologize for what? Trying to discuss something instead of pointless emoting repetition? This from an idiot who thinks that anyone who doesn't engage in the proper amount of emoting repetition must have no compassion?

No, I'm saying anyone who responds to such a horrible occurrence with snide political remarks should re-examine their own emotions. I'm not going to continue this anymore. You can't argue with someone who is assured they are both an intellectual and infalliable.

[Darth Wong]

No, they finished with Afghanistan, then Bush began his propaganda campaign, and a year later, he began the war. Nobody thought about invading Iraq until Bush decided he wants to finish what his dad started.

You're still missing the point, which is that when the campaigning for this invasion began, people made the connection between Iraq and 9/11 in much the same way that they're making it now between Chechnya and the school attack. And I fear that reprisals against Chechnya would only fuel the fires, much as I feel that the invasion of Iraq has fuelled the fires of Islamic extremism all over the world already.

[Darth Wong]

No, I'm saying anyone who responds to such a horrible occurrence with snide political remarks should re-examine their own emotions.

In short, you continue to attack the comments not by discussing their substance, but by attempting to perform amateur psychoanalysis on the person who made them.

I'm not going to continue this anymore. You can't argue with someone who is assured they are both an intellectual and infalliable.

See above. Oldest dishonest rhetorical bullshit trick in the book. Grow up.

[frigidmagi]

Wong the United States Marine Corp did not begin perpuarations for the Operation in Iraq until almost a year later, you are pointblank wrong. The propganda campaign began the fall of 2002, not the fall of 2001 at the same thing the the first groundwork was laid for invasion, you are full of shit in this.

[Darth Wong]

Wong the United States Marine Corp did not begin perpuarations for the Operation in Iraq until almost a year later, you are pointblank wrong. The propganda campaign began the fall of 2002, not the fall of 2001 at the same thing the the first groundwork was laid for invasion, you are full of shit in this.

Were you born this stupid, or did you suffer massive brain damage in a horrible car accident? The point is not how QUICKLY they blamed Iraq; the point is that they DID do so, using the same sort of logic which is (much more quickly) being used now.

[Joe]

Hmph, I thought it was the most heartbreaking thing I've read to come out of this whole thing yet and thought it was worth reading for the other members of the board. What's wrong with that? If you thought it was a pointless "me-too" thread you should have locked it rather than immediately jumping on it as another opportunity to engage bash the Iraq war.

[Darth Wong]

Hmph, I thought it was the most heartbreaking thing I've read to come out of this whole thing yet and thought it was worth reading for the other members of the board. What's wrong with that?

Nothing, except that I was then told by a bunch of self-appointed mods that it was disallowed to post anything in the thread but emoting.

If you thought it was a pointless "me-too" thread you should have locked it rather than immediately jumping on it as another opportunity to engage bash the Iraq war.

It's more than just bashing the Iraq War; it's about pointing out the similarities in the way Chechnya is being blamed now. And yes, I could have locked it, but I chose instead to say something other than pure emoting.

[frigidmagi]

The point is not how QUICKLY they blamed Iraq; the point is that they DID do so, using the same sort of logic which is (much more quickly) being used now.

You are changing your tune, please decide the music you want to play. The fact of matter is your comment was nothing more than an unrelated sneer, which was nothing of substance but how badly Iraq was handled which had nothing to do with the Op.

[Darth Wong]

The point is not how QUICKLY they blamed Iraq; the point is that they DID do so, using the same sort of logic which is (much more quickly) being used now.

You are changing your tune, please decide the music you want to play. The fact of matter is your comment was nothing more than an unrelated sneer, which was nothing of substance but how badly Iraq was handled which had nothing to do with the Op.

No, it had nothing to do with how badly the Iraq War was executed, and you would know that if you were capable of reading. It had to do with its original justification, which was that it could be loosely tied to 9/11. Just as Chechnya can be loosely tied to this school attack.

[fgalkin]

No, they finished with Afghanistan, then Bush began his propaganda campaign, and a year later, he began the war. Nobody thought about invading Iraq until Bush decided he wants to finish what his dad started.

You're still missing the point, which is that when the campaigning for this invasion began, people made the connection between Iraq and 9/11 in much the same way that they're making it now between Chechnya and the school attack. And I fear that reprisals against Chechnya would only fuel the fires, much as I feel that the invasion of Iraq has fuelled the fires of Islamic extremism all over the world already.

Except of course, that the terrorists were actually making demands for the liberation of Chechnya. The connection is not imaginary, unlike Iraq and 9/11. And the fires already have more than enough fuel, ut seems. 3 terrorist acts in two weeks, with a strong possiblity of more occuring.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Joe]

It's more than just bashing the Iraq War; it's about pointing out the similarities in the way Chechnya is being blamed now. And yes, I could have locked it, but I chose instead to say something other than pure emoting.

Well, that analogy is wrong, since these terrorists are all products of Chechnya; trained in Chechnya, funded by Chechnya, and run by Chechens; much the same the relationship the 9/11 hijackers had with Afghanistan (if anything, even stronger), in fact. It's not just something that's developed on the side like Iraq was (for right or wrong), it's at the center of the fucking issue.

[Darth Wong]

Except of course, that the terrorists were actually making demands for the liberation of Chechnya. The connection is not imaginary, unlike Iraq and 9/11.

Bin-Laden has made demands for the pullout of troops from Saudi Arabia, the lifting of sanctions on Iraq, and the end of Israeli occupation in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. By your "logic", all three entities are responsible for 9/11.

And the fires already have more than enough fuel, ut seems. 3 terrorist acts in two weeks, with a strong possiblity of more occuring.

Hence we must conclude that the current approach is not working, so "more of the same" probably won't work either.

[Master of Ossus]

It had to do with its original justification, which was that it could be loosely tied to 9/11. Just as Chechnya can be loosely tied to this school attack.

Oh, come now, Mike. The connection between the Russian terrorists and Chechen separatists is by no means weak. While Sept. 11 could only be very loosely tied to Iraq (ie. Iraq supports different terrorists, who sometimes have similar positions), the Chechen connection in the latest string of attacks is clear.

[Darth Wong]

It's more than just bashing the Iraq War; it's about pointing out the similarities in the way Chechnya is being blamed now. And yes, I could have locked it, but I chose instead to say something other than pure emoting.

Well, that analogy is wrong, since these terrorists are all products of Chechnya; trained in Chechnya, funded by Chechnya, and run by Chechens; much the same the relationship the 9/11 hijackers had with Afghanistan (if anything, even stronger), in fact. It's not just something that's developed on the side like Iraq was (for right or wrong), it's at the center of the fucking issue.

Russia controls Chechnya! What are you going to do? Attack your own people who are in control of Chechnya? It is the Chechen people who are being blamed en masse for this. It's not at all like Afghanistan, where you had a regime that actively supported these activities.