Russia: Terrorists made woman choose between her children

[Master of Ossus]

Russia controls Chechnya! What are you going to do? Attack your own people who are in control of Chechnya? It is the Chechen people who are being blamed en masse for this. It's not at all like Afghanistan, where you had a regime that actively supported these activities.

While this is true, there are obviously well-funded and organized groups in Chechnya that DO support these scumbags. Even though the GOVERNMENT and most of the POPULATION are doubtless opposed to and horrified by the actions of these radicals, there is a significant connection between these ass-wipes and the Chechen separatist groups which should be targetted for extermination.

[fgalkin]

Except of course, that the terrorists were actually making demands for the liberation of Chechnya. The connection is not imaginary, unlike Iraq and 9/11.

Bin-Laden has made demands for the pullout of troops from Saudi Arabia, the lifting of sanctions on Iraq, and the end of Israeli occupation in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. By your "logic", all three entities are responsible for 9/11.

But not Iraq. And also, unlike 9/11, the terrorists were from Chechnya, were trained in Chechnya, had come from Chechnya, supported by the Chechen rebels, etc. In this case, Chechnya=Afghanistan

And the fires already have more than enough fuel, ut seems. 3 terrorist acts in two weeks, with a strong possiblity of more occuring.

Hence we must conclude that the current approach is not working, so "more of the same" probably won't work either.

Or, it could mean that it is working quite well. Why else would they resort to such tactics unless they were getting desperate? They have lost all international support they had. Even leaders of Muslim countries denounced the acts.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Joe]

Russia controls Chechnya! What are you going to do?

Eliminate the separatists running the show with military force, I guess? What's your solution?

[Darth Wong]

While this is true, there are obviously well-funded and organized groups in Chechnya that DO support these scumbags.

You're right; they should be found and punished. I just have a problem with people blaming Chechnya as a whole.

Even though the GOVERNMENT and most of the POPULATION are doubtless opposed to and horrified by the actions of these radicals, there is a significant connection between these ass-wipes and the Chechen separatist groups which should be targetted for extermination.

Haven't they already been targeted for extermination?

[fgalkin]

It's more than just bashing the Iraq War; it's about pointing out the similarities in the way Chechnya is being blamed now. And yes, I could have locked it, but I chose instead to say something other than pure emoting.

Well, that analogy is wrong, since these terrorists are all products of Chechnya; trained in Chechnya, funded by Chechnya, and run by Chechens; much the same the relationship the 9/11 hijackers had with Afghanistan (if anything, even stronger), in fact. It's not just something that's developed on the side like Iraq was (for right or wrong), it's at the center of the fucking issue.

Russia controls Chechnya! What are you going to do? Attack your own people who are in control of Chechnya? It is the Chechen people who are being blamed en masse for this. It's not at all like Afghanistan, where you had a regime that actively supported these activities.

no, the Chechen people overwhelmingly elected the Kremlin's candidate. The Chechen rebels, on the other hand, do not recognize Russia's authority, and are no different than say, the South during the US civil war.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Darth Wong]

Except of course, that the terrorists were actually making demands for the liberation of Chechnya. The connection is not imaginary, unlike Iraq and 9/11.

Bin-Laden has made demands for the pullout of troops from Saudi Arabia, the lifting of sanctions on Iraq, and the end of Israeli occupation in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. By your "logic", all three entities are responsible for 9/11.

But not Iraq.

I suggest you read that again. Important part highlighted.

And also, unlike 9/11, the terrorists were from Chechnya, were trained in Chechnya, had come from Chechnya, supported by the Chechen rebels, etc. In this case, Chechnya=Afghanistan

So Chechnya is controlled by a regime friendly to the terrorists? Wait a minute, its regime is controlled by Moscow!

Hence we must conclude that the current approach is not working, so "more of the same" probably won't work either.

Or, it could mean that it is working quite well. Why else would they resort to such tactics unless they were getting desperate? They have lost all international support they had. Even leaders of Muslim countries denounced the acts.

Good point; this represents a good opportunity. However, savagery on our part would put an end to these feelings of sympathy. It wouldn't be the first time.

[fgalkin]

I suggest you read that again. Important part highlighted.

Whoops. Missed that. But that still does not show how Iraq is more dangerous than, say Saudi Arabia, which actually has ties to Al Quaeda

So Chechnya is controlled by a regime friendly to the terrorists? Wait a minute, its regime is controlled by Moscow!

Read my previous post. Chechnya is friendly to Russia. The rebels in the mountains are not.

Good point; this represents a good opportunity. However, savagery on our part would put an end to these feelings of sympathy. It wouldn't be the first time.

Savagery against civillians, yes. Savagery against armed gunmen in caves? Hardly.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Darth Wong]

Savagery against civillians, yes. Savagery against armed gunmen in caves? Hardly.

Agreed. Are they really all in caves, instead of blending into the civilian population?

[fgalkin]

Savagery against civillians, yes. Savagery against armed gunmen in caves? Hardly.

Agreed. Are they really all in caves, instead of blending into the civilian population?

Although the war in Chechnya is mot a topic where there is much freedom of speech, but it is known that the rebels are mostly confined to difficult to access areas in the mountians. However, they do have supporters in the population, and yes, the Russian troops are not particularly concious of human rights in weeding them out. But then again, nobody raised much of a ruckus about it before, so its not very likely the international community will take notice now, especially that now Russia has a definite reason for doing it.

EDIT: just to say that I agree with Skimmer's solution to the problem in the other thread. It seems to be the best choice.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Darth Wong]

Although the war in Chechnya is mot a topic where there is much freedom of speech, but it is known that the rebels are mostly confined to difficult to access areas in the mountians. However, they do have supporters in the population, and yes, the Russian troops are not particularly concious of human rights in weeding them out.

That's the impression I had as well.

But then again, nobody raised much of a ruckus about it before, so its not very likely the international community will take notice now, especially that now Russia has a definite reason for doing it.

I don't know about that; I get the distinct impression that somebody was pretty angry about it.

[Darth Wong]

EDIT: just to say that I agree with Skimmer's solution to the problem in the other thread. It seems to be the best choice.

If you tell all the civilians to get out so you can nuke the terrorists, won't the terrorists just blend in with the civilians and leave with them?

[fgalkin]

Well, groups like Amnesty International were talking about it, and the movie the Sum of All Fears featured the evil Russkies gassing Chechens. But then again, that movie is so ignorant in its portrayal of Russia, Putin should sue for slander.

Other than that, people were mostly quiet about it. The fact that the rebels were killing Red Cross workers and cut of the heads of captured Russian soldiers certainly didn't make them like the rebels.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[fgalkin]

EDIT: just to say that I agree with Skimmer's solution to the problem in the other thread. It seems to be the best choice.

If you tell all the civilians to get out so you can nuke the terrorists, won't the terrorists just blend in with the civilians and leave with them?

well, I'm willing to gas the villages without telling the civilians to leave.While this would certainly be a despicable act, it would indeed be worth it if it wiould destroy or siginficantly weaken the rebels. But then again, my opinion is influenced by the fact that I'm Russian and only a few hours ago, the worst hostage crisis in history ended in a bloodbath.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Darth Wong]

well, I'm willing to gas the villages without telling the civilians to leave.While this would certainly be a despicable act, it would indeed be worth it if it wiould destroy or siginficantly weaken the rebels. But then again, my opinion is influenced by the fact that I'm Russian and only a few hours ago, the worst hostage crisis in history ended in a bloodbath.

I can respect the honesty in that statement.

[fgalkin]

And besides, its not like the situation in Chechnya right now is nice in any shape or form. There is torture, executions, detention camps that would make Saddam proud, etc. The sooner the war is over, the better this will end.

And the Russian side of the story is not much better. One of the reasons my parents actually immigrated was because to be sent to serve in Chechnya is universally considered to be a death sentence. And since service is mandatory, they got me out of the country before I turned 18 and could be drafted.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Joe]

Well, groups like Amnesty International were talking about it, and the movie the Sum of All Fears featured the evil Russkies gassing Chechens. But then again, that movie is so ignorant in its portrayal of Russia, Putin should sue for slander.

No it didn't, the movie had some crazy renegade general in the Russian army go off and ruin Chechnya's shit on his own, not with the permission of the Russian gov't. The Russian President merely took the responsibility publically to avoid the Russian government appearing to be incompetent and unable to control it's military.

The movie did suck much ass, though.

[fgalkin]

Well, groups like Amnesty International were talking about it, and the movie the Sum of All Fears featured the evil Russkies gassing Chechens. But then again, that movie is so ignorant in its portrayal of Russia, Putin should sue for slander.

No it didn't, the movie had some crazy renegade general in the Russian army go off and ruin Chechnya's shit on his own, not with the permission of the Russian gov't. The Russian President merely took the responsibility publically to avoid the Russian government appearing to be incompetent and unable to control it's military.

The movie did suck much ass, though.

Bah. The point that Russia's war in Chechnya was portrayed as a negative still stands.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Sea Skimmer]

If you tell all the civilians to get out so you can nuke the terrorists, won't the terrorists just blend in with the civilians and leave with them?

I'm talking about the large armed bans of guerrillas walking around in the mountains causing trouble and tying up a vast quantity of Russian resources, just one squad of infantry guarding that school might have stopped all of this. Some of them might be able to go back into the civilian population, but large numbers are foreigners in the first place, and it would mean abandoning their equipment, base areas and campaign, all of which is handing a big victory to the Russians in the first place.

[Vympel]

No it didn't, the movie had some crazy renegade general in the Russian army go off and ruin Chechnya's shit on his own, not with the permission of the Russian gov't. The Russian President merely took the responsibility publically to avoid the Russian government appearing to be incompetent and unable to control it's military.

The movie did suck much ass, though.

The American President also referred to Chechnya as "another country" more than once. That was an even worse misrepresentation.

[Talon Karrde]

It's a good thing the world is safe from terrorism thanks to the invasion of Iraq, so these kinds of things don't happen any more.

Leave it to you Mike to take this horrible trajedy and make an Iraq thread out of it.

[Meest]

Leave it to you Mike to take this horrible trajedy and make an Iraq thread out of it.

Good thing you're around to show how retardedly brainwashed some people can be. Why is it when a rightwing "talking point" gets challenged they scream foul and claim how dispassionate. When people are calling for death which would involve innocents, that's fine when its "the evil people's kids".

[MKSheppard]

TOTAL SCUM!

The Sunday Times (UK)

AFTER more than 24 hours in the sweltering heat of the school gymnasium in Beslan, one of the boys trapped inside could not take it any longer, writes Peter Conradi.

Summoning up his courage, he approached a hostage taker with a bayonet fixed to his assault rifle and asked him for a drink. It was probably the worst error that he could have made.

“Instead of giving him water, he drove his bayonet through the boy’s body,” said Stanislav Tsarakhov, 10, another captive standing nearby. “I don’t know if he died.”

[Talon Karrde]

Leave it to you Mike to take this horrible trajedy and make an Iraq thread out of it.

Good thing you're around to show how retardedly brainwashed some people can be. Why is it when a rightwing "talking point" gets challenged they scream foul and claim how dispassionate. When people are calling for death which would involve innocents, that's fine when its "the evil people's kids".

What the hell does what you just said have anything do to with what I did? Right wing talking point? Excuse me? I say, "Leave it to you Mike to take this horrible trajedy and make an Iraq thread out of it," and this is a right-wing talking point? Your going to have to explain that one to me.

And what exactly are your reffering to with the last part of your statement? Are you trying to accuse me of thinking it's ok what the Chechnayn's did? Again, call me retarded if you must, but I'm not sure what your getting at here.

[BoredShirtless]

Again, call me retarded if you must,

You are retarted. Seriously, you are a fucking idiot.

[Talon Karrde]

Again, call me retarded if you must,

You are retarted. Seriously, you are a fucking idiot.

Wow, your pretty original. And since you appear to be so enlightened, would you care to explain his post?