Sheikh says: "Muslims Responsible for Terror"

[Coyote]

It is said that "all that is required for evil to flourish is for good men to stand aside and do nothing". That has long been my opinion of the Arab Muslim world-- that while a great many Arab Muslims are pretty much regular guys that just want to lead decent lives, they do nothing to stop their lunatic fringe fellows who are intent on carrying out their Death Cult version of Islamic Jihad to the world.

Apparantly, Abdulrahman al-Rashed, general manager of Al-Arabiya television, has come out and exclaimed that the Arab Muslim world has become tarnished by the actions of the various Jihadists around the world. Hopefully, more Arab public leaders will see the wisdom in reigning in their more radical elements.

"Our terrorist sons are an end-product of our corrupted culture," Abdulrahman al-Rashed, general manager of Al-Arabiya television wrote in his daily column published in the pan-Arab Asharq Al-Awsat newspaper. It ran under the headline, "The Painful Truth: All the World Terrorists are Muslims!"

Al-Rashed ran through a list of recent attacks by Islamic extremist groups - in Russia, Iraq, Sudan, Saudi Arabia and Yemen - many of which are influenced by the ideology of Osama Bin Laden, the Saudi-born leader of the al-Qaida terror network.

"Most perpetrators of suicide operations in buses, schools and residential buildings around the world for the past 10 years have been Muslims," he wrote. Muslims will be unable to cleanse their image unless "we admit the scandalous facts," rather than offer condemnations or justifications.

"The picture is humiliating, painful and harsh for all of us," al-Rashed wrote.

Here's an Associated Press link:

http://www.theledger.com/apps/pbcs.dll/ ... /409040653

But then again, there's always the spin: Jihadis will point to Israel as the real power behind this, of course, and it is important that we remember that even our friends in the region are unrepentant Judeophobes. On "Jihad Watch", scroll to the bottom and see this gem:

,"Ali Abdullah, a Bahraini scholar who follows the ultraconservative Salafi stream of Islam, condemned the school attack as "un-Islamic," but insisted Muslims weren't behind it.

"I have no doubt in my mind that this is the work of the Israelis who want to tarnish the image of Muslims and are working alongside Russians who have their own agenda against the Muslims in Chechnya," said Abdullah.

So he's admitting that Israel controls the Jihad?

http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/003076.php

Still, the self-criticism is healthy, and hopefully is the start of a new trend in asking, "what the hell are we really standing for when people see us chering every time a busload of people and children is blown up?" A very good question.

[Bertie Wooster]

That's a very brave thing for the Sheikh to say; maybe if the media gave more coverage of Muslim leaders who advocate peace and are against the goals of the terrorists people wouldn't have such a phobia of a monolithic Muslim world all having bloody mouths.

[Perinquus]

But then again, there's always the spin: Jihadis will point to Israel as the real power behind this, of course, and it is important that we remember that even our friends in the region are unrepentant Judeophobes. On "Jihad Watch", scroll to the bottom and see this gem:

,"Ali Abdullah, a Bahraini scholar who follows the ultraconservative Salafi stream of Islam, condemned the school attack as "un-Islamic," but insisted Muslims weren't behind it.

"I have no doubt in my mind that this is the work of the Israelis who want to tarnish the image of Muslims and are working alongside Russians who have their own agenda against the Muslims in Chechnya," said Abdullah.

So he's admitting that Israel controls the Jihad?

http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/003076.php

I don't know whether to be relieved, amused, or saddened that the U.S. is not the only place where crackpot conspiracy theorists seem to flourish.

[Stormbringer]

It's a very encouraging message, one I can only hope that more in the Muslim world take to heart. The moderates need to speak out and take the jihadists out of the drivers seat of Islam. If more of them do that then there will be real change, change for the better for the Islamic world.

[Bugsby]

It's a problem with the media. Most muslims are good guys, but a small minority makes headlines. The normal majority shakes their head and goes on about their lives. Only now do they realize that all these years of headlines have tarnished their image. Time to do some heavy PR work!

[frigidmagi]

More than just PR work, they need to throw out the fundies from thier seats of power. Of course this will take a long long time. Just like everywhere else where such battles take place.

[Darth Wong]

I don't see how the Muslim reluctance to take responsibility for the actions of unelected extremists is any worse than a democratic society's reluctance to accept collective responsibility for the actions of its elected government.

[Master of Ossus]

I don't see how the Muslim reluctance to take responsibility for the actions of unelected extremists is any worse than a democratic society's reluctance to accept collective responsibility for the actions of its elected government.

Last time I checked, no one in the US was blaming DPR Korea for forcing us to go to war with Iraq, or saying that the Iraqi war was perpetrated by North Korean agents bent on discrediting us.

[Darth Wong]

I don't see how the Muslim reluctance to take responsibility for the actions of unelected extremists is any worse than a democratic society's reluctance to accept collective responsibility for the actions of its elected government.

Last time I checked, no one in the US was blaming DPR Korea for forcing us to go to war with Iraq, or saying that the Iraqi war was perpetrated by North Korean agents bent on discrediting us.

I don't see how this is relevant. Conspiracy theorists about 9/11 abound in North America and Europe as well; that's not a uniquely Muslim viewpoint. And the point was that telling people they are responsible for the actions of others if they don't "reign them in" is a bit hypocritical when it comes from people who live in democratic societies such as ours but who refuse to accept responsibility for the actions of our own elected governments (which is usually the case).

[Master of Ossus]

I don't see how this is relevant. Conspiracy theorists about 9/11 abound in North America and Europe as well; that's not a uniquely Muslim viewpoint. And the point was that telling people they are responsible for the actions of others if they don't "reign them in" is a bit hypocritical when it comes from people who live in democratic societies such as ours but who refuse to accept responsibility for the actions of our own elected governments (which is usually the case).

You have a point.

I still think, though, that the simple fact that conspiracy theorists here tend to be laughed into obscurity is a significant deviance from the Middle East, though, where conspiracy theories about the evil Israelis are literally the subject of choice for a significant fraction of the population.

I don't really buy the argument that Islamic society must reign in the terrorists, but at the same time the fact that many of these terror groups draw upon significant support from the populace is indicative of a serious societal problem within Islamic countries that IS partly their responsibility, just as evil actions taken by elected officials here are partly our responsibility.

[Master of Ossus]

Incidentally, after giving this more thought, I've come to the true difference between the two sides. It's not that Muslims are denying responsibility for the attacks--after all, they're all not guilty just because a Muslim did it--they're denying that a Muslim committed the crime. If Bush, tomorrow, ordered someone to drop a bomb somewhere and it ended up hitting a school and killing 150 people, Americans would say that Bush or the pilot or whoever screwed up and they would easily admit that Bush is an American. If Muslims tomorrow launched a suicide attack that killed 150 people in a school, they would deny that a Muslim was responsible and blame it on the Israelis and/or the victims. THAT's the true difference between the two sides.

[PainRack]

Last time I checked, no one in the US was blaming DPR Korea for forcing us to go to war with Iraq, or saying that the Iraqi war was perpetrated by North Korean agents bent on discrediting us.

This is the US that has people claiming that the government fired a missile at the Pentagon so that it can invade Iraq.

If Bush, tomorrow, ordered someone to drop a bomb somewhere and it ended up hitting a school and killing 150 people, Americans would say that Bush or the pilot or whoever screwed up and they would easily admit that Bush is an American.

But they will still deny that Bush or Americans were at fault. Abu Grahib and Rush Limbaurg anyone?

[Master of Ossus]

This is the US that has people claiming that the government fired a missile at the Pentagon so that it can invade Iraq.

You gotta be shitting me. In the entire US, you've found two or three wackos who have gained no mainstream support from anybody and then equate those with an entire society that does little but blame Israelis for terrorist actions? Keep in mind that polls in Egypt suggested that six months after the 9/11 attacks, most Egyptians believed that the JEWS were responsible for the attacks. Remember that Arab newspapers reported that there were no Jews who went to work that day, and that no Jews had been killed in the attacks. The frickin' Muslim PRESS was supporting the notion that the attacks were a Jewish conspiracy. And you equate a few nutjobs with a website with that?

But they will still deny that Bush or Americans were at fault. Abu Grahib and Rush Limbaurg anyone?

You gotta be shitting me. Virtually everyone accepts that Americans at Abu Ghraib did bad things. When the American warplane hit the Chinese embassy, Americans almost immediately apologized. Compare this with someone claiming that Muslims were not responsible for an attack, and that in fact Israel was behind it with Russian helpers. There can be no reasonable comparison between these two aspects of the different societies.

[Darth Wong]

Incidentally, after giving this more thought, I've come to the true difference between the two sides. It's not that Muslims are denying responsibility for the attacks--after all, they're all not guilty just because a Muslim did it--they're denying that a Muslim committed the crime. If Bush, tomorrow, ordered someone to drop a bomb somewhere and it ended up hitting a school and killing 150 people, Americans would say that Bush or the pilot or whoever screwed up and they would easily admit that Bush is an American. If Muslims tomorrow launched a suicide attack that killed 150 people in a school, they would deny that a Muslim was responsible and blame it on the Israelis and/or the victims. THAT's the true difference between the two sides.

"They" would deny it? All Muslims are of one mind on this? I'd say that the uneducated masses would be easily convinced of a conspiracy theory, but that's true in any society; the problem is that in the Middle East, a rather large proportion of the population happens to be uneducated.

[Master of Ossus]

"They" would deny it? All Muslims are of one mind on this?

You're right. It was a poorly chosen phrase. That being said, though, conspiracy theories about an evil Israel are EXTREMELY popular in the Islamic world--vastly more so than in the US and the west.

I'd say that the uneducated masses would be easily convinced of a conspiracy theory, but that's true in any society; the problem is that in the Middle East, a rather large proportion of the population happens to be uneducated.

True, but I think that the problem goes beyond that. Many of the respected intellectuals in Islamic societies believe in, fuel, and even create these conspiracy theories. That is a radical departure from the west, where with very few exceptions intellectuals generally reject such claims as being ludicrous and frivolous. It also, frankly, makes it a lot easier to convince the masses. It's one thing if a loony with a website says that the military attacked its own building, but it's totally different if your village elder is saying that Russians attacked their own school.

[Darth Wong]

"They" would deny it? All Muslims are of one mind on this?

You're right. It was a poorly chosen phrase. That being said, though, conspiracy theories about an evil Israel are EXTREMELY popular in the Islamic world--vastly more so than in the US and the west.

Naturally, since they hate Israel.

I'd say that the uneducated masses would be easily convinced of a conspiracy theory, but that's true in any society; the problem is that in the Middle East, a rather large proportion of the population happens to be uneducated.

True, but I think that the problem goes beyond that. Many of the respected intellectuals in Islamic societies believe in, fuel, and even create these conspiracy theories. That is a radical departure from the west, where with very few exceptions intellectuals generally reject such claims as being ludicrous and frivolous. It also, frankly, makes it a lot easier to convince the masses. It's one thing if a loony with a website says that the military attacked its own building, but it's totally different if your village elder is saying that Russians attacked their own school.

According to the polls, despite the virtual media saturation of the facts, some 70% of Americans still believe that Saddam Hussein was involved in planning or executing 9/11. Is that not an equally egregious case of people choosing to believe that someone was responsible for a heinous act for no other reason than the fact that they dislike him and think he's a bad person?

When you hate someone, it's really not that hard to convince yourself that he secretly did horrible things. Same goes for entire nations.

[Master of Ossus]

According to the polls, despite the virtual media saturation of the facts, some 70% of Americans still believe that Saddam Hussein was involved in planning or executing 9/11. Is that not an equally egregious case of people choosing to believe that someone was responsible for a heinous act for no other reason than the fact that they dislike him and think he's a bad person?

I don't think so. How many people believe that Iraq had WoMD when it started raining high-explosives? When was the last press report that linked Iraq with either 9/11 or WoMD? When was the last intelligent person who suggested that either was clearly the case? What's different about Islamic society is that virtually the entire educated population, as well as the general masses, perpetuates these ridiculous theories.

When you hate someone, it's really not that hard to convince yourself that he secretly did horrible things. Same goes for entire nations.

I'm sure that's the case, but these Islamic people sure hate a lot of other guys. The US, the west in general, Russia, Ossetians, Indians, Chinese, the list goes on and on. It's frankly difficult to imagine intellectuals in the United States being so filled with hatred that they literally cannot objectively view a news report for half the frickin' globe. Moreover, it's not an excuse to perpetuate obviously erroneous information even if you do hate someone. To my knowledge, no one in the Arab news world has publically acknowledged that their reports about how no Jews went to work on 9/11 were fraudulent.

[Darth Wong]

I don't think so. How many people believe that Iraq had WoMD when it started raining high-explosives? When was the last press report that linked Iraq with either 9/11 or WoMD? When was the last intelligent person who suggested that either was clearly the case? What's different about Islamic society is that virtually the entire educated population, as well as the general masses, perpetuates these ridiculous theories.

I don't think you understand; the poll numbers show that while everyone "in the know" has admitted there is little or no connection, 70% of the general population still thinks he was involved.

When you hate someone, it's really not that hard to convince yourself that he secretly did horrible things. Same goes for entire nations.

I'm sure that's the case, but these Islamic people sure hate a lot of other guys.

The extremists do. There's a large amount of extremists there, and I'm sorry to say that their numbers are growing.

The US, the west in general, Russia, Ossetians, Indians, Chinese, the list goes on and on. It's frankly difficult to imagine intellectuals in the United States being so filled with hatred that they literally cannot objectively view a news report for half the frickin' globe.

They regard American and Western European news outlets as propaganda outlets, much the same way we regard Al-Jazeera, hence they dismiss them.

Moreover, it's not an excuse to perpetuate obviously erroneous information even if you do hate someone. To my knowledge, no one in the Arab news world has publically acknowledged that their reports about how no Jews went to work on 9/11 were fraudulent.

I never said it was an "excuse"; I'm just explaining why it happens, and reminding you that 70% of Americans still think Saddam Hussein was responsible for 9/11. Click here if you don't believe me.

[PainRack]

You gotta be shitting me. In the entire US, you've found two or three wackos who have gained no mainstream support from anybody and then equate those with an entire society that does little but blame Israelis for terrorist actions? Keep in mind that polls in Egypt suggested that six months after the 9/11 attacks, most Egyptians believed that the JEWS were responsible for the attacks. Remember that Arab newspapers reported that there were no Jews who went to work that day, and that no Jews had been killed in the attacks. The frickin' Muslim PRESS was supporting the notion that the attacks were a Jewish conspiracy. And you equate a few nutjobs with a website with that?

Ahem

no one in the US was blaming DPR Korea for forcing us to go to war with Iraq

That's clearly not nobody.

And for those who believed in the New World Order, the claims that the UN orchestrated the WTC attacks sill ring wild.

Its simply a matter of reinforcement. You believe something is bad, you find ways and means to report it.

You gotta be shitting me. Virtually everyone accepts that Americans at Abu Ghraib did bad things. When the American warplane hit the Chinese embassy, Americans almost immediately apologized. Compare this with someone claiming that Muslims were not responsible for an attack, and that in fact Israel was behind it with Russian helpers. There can be no reasonable comparison between these two aspects of the different societies.

Cheney and Rumsfield, claim their actions was not really torture. Rush claim that they were not torture, and was justified.
You're using a biased media source, and then claiming that those who believe in a biased media are "wrong". Unfortunately, its just basic human nature.

[Master of Ossus]

I don't think you understand; the poll numbers show that while everyone "in the know" has admitted there is little or no connection, 70% of the general population still thinks he was involved.

I don't really see how that compares to an Islamic society in which conspiracy theories about Israel are literally a conversation topic of choice for a huge fraction of the populace. When was the last time you heard people discussing how Saddam helped plan the 9/11 attacks? Even if people report that they believe it in a poll, they're not talking about it, anymore. More importantly, the educated people who have bothered to keep up don't believe in that nonsense. That's completely different from the Muslim world.

They regard American and Western European news outlets as propaganda outlets, much the same way we regard Al-Jazeera, hence they dismiss them.

So what?

I never said it was an "excuse"; I'm just explaining why it happens, and reminding you that 70% of Americans still think Saddam Hussein was responsible for 9/11. Click here if you don't believe me.

It's not that I don't believe you, it's that I don't find that to be remotely analogous to the societal basis of Muslim conspiracy theorists. The very fact that public statements from respected members of the Islamic community (ie. religious and governmental figures, village elders, etc.) blame things like this on Israel makes the nature of these theories different from the ridiculous theories in the west. It's not merely some sort of hatred in the Middle East that gets people to believe in such theories. There's also the fact that everyone is repeating them.

[Darth Wong]

I don't really see how that compares to an Islamic society in which conspiracy theories about Israel are literally a conversation topic of choice for a huge fraction of the populace. When was the last time you heard people discussing how Saddam helped plan the 9/11 attacks?

How do you know people in Muslim countries talk about conspiracy theories all the time?

It's not that I don't believe you, it's that I don't find that to be remotely analogous to the societal basis of Muslim conspiracy theorists. The very fact that public statements from respected members of the Islamic community (ie. religious and governmental figures, village elders, etc.) blame things like this on Israel makes the nature of these theories different from the ridiculous theories in the west.

President Bush himself tried to connect Iraq and 9/11. That's higher than some "village elder".

[Master of Ossus]

How do you know people in Muslim countries talk about conspiracy theories all the time?

Because I've been there (if you consider Palestine to be a Muslim country), and I've had friends in Saudi Arabia, Yemen, and Oman. I also know several people who are exhiled from Iran. When someone comes up to you in a cafe and the first thing they say is "Did you hear that the Israelis blew up their own building, again?" I think that that represents a reasonable sampling of the culture. And it didn't just happen once, either.

President Bush himself tried to connect Iraq and 9/11. That's higher than some "village elder".

Again, when was the last time you heard someone say this? While it's true that government officials are often sleeze-bags, it doesn't disprove the general trend. Moreover, since most people in the US have a friend or family member that they trust much more than they trust any politician, the point is more or less moot. Bush may have more authority than a village elder, but he isn't more trusted, and episodes like that one show why.

[SirNitram]

How do you know people in Muslim countries talk about conspiracy theories all the time?

Because I've been there (if you consider Palestine to be a Muslim country), and I've had friends in Saudi Arabia, Yemen, and Oman. I also know several people who are exhiled from Iran. When someone comes up to you in a cafe and the first thing they say is "Did you hear that the Israelis blew up their own building, again?" I think that that represents a reasonable sampling of the culture. And it didn't just happen once, either.

In a drive through Southern states, I overheard more than one conversasion about how the Oklahoma building was blown up by the CIA. Ergo, all Southerners talk about conspiracies all the time.

[Darth Wong]

How do you know people in Muslim countries talk about conspiracy theories all the time?

Because I've been there (if you consider Palestine to be a Muslim country), and I've had friends in Saudi Arabia, Yemen, and Oman. I also know several people who are exhiled from Iran. When someone comes up to you in a cafe and the first thing they say is "Did you hear that the Israelis blew up their own building, again?" I think that that represents a reasonable sampling of the culture. And it didn't just happen once, either.

So how many times does it happen in all Muslim countries? When you make a sweeping generalization like that, "I know a friend" and "I've visited Palestine" doesn't cut it. And yes, by the way, many many people bring up the Iraq/911 connection all the time, particularly on message boards such as this one. Not here because they will be laughed at, but try going to other message boards and you'll find a lot of people who immediately bring up 9/11 the minute you mention Iraq.

President Bush himself tried to connect Iraq and 9/11. That's higher than some "village elder".

Again, when was the last time you heard someone say this? While it's true that government officials are often sleeze-bags, it doesn't disprove the general trend. Moreover, since most people in the US have a friend or family member that they trust much more than they trust any politician, the point is more or less moot. Bush may have more authority than a village elder, but he isn't more trusted, and episodes like that one show why.

His bullshit is trusted enough to win over 70% of the population. Unless you have numbers showing that more than 70% of the population in Muslim countries thinks the USA blew up its own WTC, you're barking up the wrong tree.

[Master of Ossus]

In a drive through Southern states, I overheard more than one conversasion about how the Oklahoma building was blown up by the CIA. Ergo, all Southerners talk about conspiracies all the time.

If that's true, then it represents considerable evidence against my position. However, I never claimed that all Muslims talk about conspiracy theories all the time. It is a significant part of the culture in Palestine, but not EVERYONE adheres to such theories.