It's probably your reactionary cocksucking of Bush at the merest hint of criticism that gives Stormbringer that impression.Talon Karrde wrote:HEY MORON. Don't give me this bullshit. First off, I never claimed to be "persecuted" and all that crap. Secondly, go back and check the polls. When Bush was running against Gore every country outside the U.S. except 1 if I remember correctly would have voted for Gore.Stormbringer wrote:That's a bunch of bullshit and you ought to know better. It's time to drop the persecution complex, Bush is hated because he's treated American allies badly and generally acted like a jackass. His policies have been America and to hell with the rest. One can look out for national best interests with out alienating our allies; the two are not mutally exclusive.Talon Karrde wrote:It's not just Bush that has been hated on the international front, it's any conservative candidate. I think you'll find over 3/4 of the world population outside the U.S. at any given time prefer the liberal candidate over the conservative one.
A lot of conservative presidents have been while enough liked, or at least respected, by our friends. Certainly a conservative is not automatically a pariah as you suggest.
Don't act like he was liked at one point. He was never supported internationally. And don't try to pull out some "persecution" bullshit when I never brought anything up like that.
Anyone not from the US suport Bush?
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You just don't get it do you. Your orginal post claimed that Bush was hated because he's a conservative. It was my considerable joy to point out your blind faith that the godless Euro-commies hate all conservatives is totally innaccurate and unfounded. Out the consevative Presidents of the latter half of the 20th century, including the present President Bush's father, none were subject to the hate that's directed towards the present President Bush. All were respected more or less and a good many were actually warmly recieved.HEY MORON. Don't give me this bullshit. First off, I never claimed to be "persecuted" and all that crap. Secondly, go back and check the polls. When Bush was running against Gore every country outside the U.S. except 1 if I remember correctly would have voted for Gore.
Bush is disliked internationally for the very simple reason that he's a bigoted crank who has no problem running rough shod over allies and rivals (that's rival, not enemies) alike.
He wasn't 'supported' for the very simple reason that to support anything of Bush they would have had to bend over while he assraped them viciously. There's no county in the world that's going to willingly and cheerfully go along with that.Don't act like he was liked at one point. He was never supported internationally. And don't try to pull out some "persecution" bullshit when I never brought anything up like that.
Now get Bush's manchowder out of your mouth and grow a brain.
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Why don't you go ahead and continue to ignore my point that foreign countries disliked him BEFORE he was president. I'm sure as governor of Texas he did alot of crap that really hurt them.Stormbringer wrote:You just don't get it do you. Your orginal post claimed that Bush was hated because he's a conservative. It was my considerable joy to point out your blind faith that the godless Euro-commies hate all conservatives is totally innaccurate and unfounded. Out the consevative Presidents of the latter half of the 20th century, including the present President Bush's father, none were subject to the hate that's directed towards the present President Bush. All were respected more or less and a good many were actually warmly recieved.HEY MORON. Don't give me this bullshit. First off, I never claimed to be "persecuted" and all that crap. Secondly, go back and check the polls. When Bush was running against Gore every country outside the U.S. except 1 if I remember correctly would have voted for Gore.
Bush is disliked internationally for the very simple reason that he's a bigoted crank who has no problem running rough shod over allies and rivals (that's rival, not enemies) alike.
He wasn't 'supported' for the very simple reason that to support anything of Bush they would have had to bend over while he assraped them viciously. There's no county in the world that's going to willingly and cheerfully go along with that.Don't act like he was liked at one point. He was never supported internationally. And don't try to pull out some "persecution" bullshit when I never brought anything up like that.
Now get Bush's manchowder out of your mouth and grow a brain.
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Bush was never popular over here before he took office, but he wasn't hated either. While most Europeans that I've talked to (IRL or over the net) would have favoured Gore over Bush in the 2000 elections it took a few years of the Bush administration for them to go from "favours Gore over Bush" to the kind of seething hatred Bush invokes in many today.Talon Karrde wrote:Why don't you go ahead and continue to ignore my point that foreign countries disliked him BEFORE he was president. I'm sure as governor of Texas he did alot of crap that really hurt them.
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small hint: bush wasn't supported because he was a moron. before and after he became president. him being a conservative had nothing to do with it, regardless of how much you might think otherwise.Talon Karrde wrote:Why don't you go ahead and continue to ignore my point that foreign countries disliked him BEFORE he was president. I'm sure as governor of Texas he did alot of crap that really hurt them.
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You're very right about them disliking (not hating) Bush before the election. Why shouldn't they have? They're as capable as we are of following the news and looking at Bush's record as governor. Bush demonstrated a lot of his ideas and attitudesin the 2000 campaign, certainly his intolerant brand of Christianity and his arrogance, and that gave them serious pause. Those didn't come out of know where and they no doubt saw that.Talon Karrde wrote:Why don't you go ahead and continue to ignore my point that foreign countries disliked him BEFORE he was president. I'm sure as governor of Texas he did alot of crap that really hurt them.
The hate came later, mostly because of his truly ham-handed behaviour with regards to any number of things.
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While I don't think Bush is half as bad as people make him out to be I'm in no delusion that he's any brilliant leader. I'm apathetic about the issue of Kerry VS Bush because neither seem particularly good, though Kerry might be more positive for us Foreign types in general (though for the UK that's also something of a non-issue in regards America at the moment) so I lean marginally toward thinking he's preferable.
One thing about Bush is he does APPEAR like a clown even if he is not one. His command of English is frequently comic, and he looks a little like a chimp. As a symbol of America, he is a poor one, not matter how good his policies might be. The Office of President is afterall very important in regards foreign policy and appearance, it's worth taking that into account.
One thing about Bush is he does APPEAR like a clown even if he is not one. His command of English is frequently comic, and he looks a little like a chimp. As a symbol of America, he is a poor one, not matter how good his policies might be. The Office of President is afterall very important in regards foreign policy and appearance, it's worth taking that into account.
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Ok, thanks. That was my point. He was hated, your right, before he was elected, but he wasn't favored either. And your also right, he is now HATED by the world because of his policies.Stormbringer wrote:You're very right about them disliking (not hating) Bush before the election. Why shouldn't they have? They're as capable as we are of following the news and looking at Bush's record as governor. Bush demonstrated a lot of his ideas and attitudesin the 2000 campaign, certainly his intolerant brand of Christianity and his arrogance, and that gave them serious pause. Those didn't come out of know where and they no doubt saw that.Talon Karrde wrote:Why don't you go ahead and continue to ignore my point that foreign countries disliked him BEFORE he was president. I'm sure as governor of Texas he did alot of crap that really hurt them.
The hate came later, mostly because of his truly ham-handed behaviour with regards to any number of things.
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so it´s wrong to dislike somebody who doesn´t directly affect you? interesting. i guess you didn´t dislike saddam then.Talon Karrde wrote:Why don't you go ahead and continue to ignore my point that foreign countries disliked him BEFORE he was president. I'm sure as governor of Texas he did alot of crap that really hurt them.
Talon when Bush last visited Britain 200,000 people demonstrated against him doing so, that is quite exceptional and can in no way be written off by him being Conservative, I don’t recall that anything like that happening to Bush Snr and it’s a little before my time but I think Reagan was tolerably popular here.Talon Karrde wrote:Ok, thanks. That was my point. He was hated, your right, before he was elected, but he wasn't favored either. And your also right, he is now HATED by the world because of his policies.
I only know one single person who owns up in public to liking Bush and he happens to be a member of the fascist British National Party (who incidentally on the whole don’t like Bush either) even the Conservative Party here who traditionally have links to the Republicans have been trying to distance themselves from Bush.
Bush is absolutely loathed by the vast majority of the British population because of his policies and his personality most Brits don’t really know the difference between the the Republicans and the Democrats but even the least informed can see that Bush is an ignorant, arrogant, hypocritical, war mongering, cowardly fuck.
Just accept it we hate Bush because of who he is, what he’s done and what he’s trying to do his membership of a “conservative” party has nothing to do with it.
Bush is so bloody unpopular that even local Anarchist parties are considering voting now just to get Bush out of office.
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Kind of old news but they're even sending MP's over to work on the Kerry campaign, though seeing how the Tories have been doing recently I'm not sure how much of a favour that if to Kerry infact maybe that helps explain why the Kerry campaign has been screwing up so badly that old Tory magic rubbing off on them?Sharp-kun wrote:They don't really need to, Bush has done that for themPlekhanov wrote:even the Conservative Party here who traditionally have links to the Republicans have been trying to distance themselves from Bush.
I really don't know how to react to this Blair is his best mate and the the tories are actively working against Bush are labour even to the right of the Conservatives now what the hells going on?
some blogger wrote:Wednesday 26th May Conservatives for Kerry! It's intriguing that a couple of UK Conservative MPs are coming out in support of John Kerry - it was reported like this in the Times:
TWO Tory MPs disclosed last night that they were ready to work for John Kerry, the US Democratic presidential candidate, in his campaign to oust George W. Bush from the White House this autumn.
Their plan, which is understood to have received tacit approval from the party’s high command, is the clearest evidence yet of a growing rift between British Conservatives and their natural right-wing allies among the Republicans.
Alan Duncan, the Tory front-bench spokesman on constitutional affairs, told The Times that he was in correspondence with Mr Kerry’s aides about joining their campaign. “I intend to go over there in the next couple of months,” he said. “It is partly about making links, but I will also help if I can. I want John Kerry to win.”
Although Mr Duncan remains an instinctive supporter of the Republicans, it is understood that he has been dismayed by the influence of “neoconservative” rightwingers in the Pentagon, such as Donald Rumsfeld. He backed the war but feels let down by the failure to discover weapons of mass destruction in Iraq and by the lack of progress in the Middle East peace process.
I was in high school during Reagan's first term and I remember massive protests from those CND cocksuckers protesting against Reagan and his plans to base Pershing II's at (IIRC) Greenham Commons.Plekhanov wrote:I don’t recall that anything like that happening to Bush Snr and it’s a little before my time but I think Reagan was tolerably popular here.
Similar demonstrations by the 'better Red than dead' nutjobs took place thoughout western Europe.
"You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours."- General Sir Charles Napier
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Considering that most Anarchist parties are barely even the size of a rounding error in the polls they would hardly matter, it is not as if the election will be decided by a few hundred votes in a critical state...Alyeska wrote:Bush is so bloody unpopular that even local Anarchist parties are considering voting now just to get Bush out of office.
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I fondly remember the shocked look my teacher gave me when I refused the sign the first monthly protest against Pershing & Tomahawk, or the stunned disbelief when I informed my classmates just how many SS20 the Soviets had deployed.Glocksman wrote:Similar demonstrations by the 'better Red than dead' nutjobs took place thoughout western Europe.
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Reagan was strongly disliked in Europe during his first few years in office.
On the other hand, I seriously doubt most of the poor reaction to Bush in Europe has to do with politics. So few people can even articulate their own opinions, let alone their reactions to those of Bush, that it's far more probable the hatred comes from a falsified perception passed down to them by friends. Let's face it: hating Bush is just popular, and those people are very unlikely to run into any of his supporters anyway.
On the other hand, I seriously doubt most of the poor reaction to Bush in Europe has to do with politics. So few people can even articulate their own opinions, let alone their reactions to those of Bush, that it's far more probable the hatred comes from a falsified perception passed down to them by friends. Let's face it: hating Bush is just popular, and those people are very unlikely to run into any of his supporters anyway.
Any idea of the number of ‘nutjobs” who turned out against Reagan?Glocksman wrote:I was in high school during Reagan's first term and I remember massive protests from those CND cocksuckers protesting against Reagan and his plans to base Pershing II's at (IIRC) Greenham Commons.Plekhanov wrote:I don’t recall that anything like that happening to Bush Snr and it’s a little before my time but I think Reagan was tolerably popular here.
Similar demonstrations by the 'better Red than dead' nutjobs took place thoughout western Europe.
I’m aware of the Greenham Common protests (in fact theres still a “peace camp” there for some reason even thought the missiles have been removed) however protests about a substantive matter like foreign nuclear weapons being based in Britain (which of course made Greenham Common a prime Soviet Target) are a very different matter to 200,000 people marching because the US President wants to visit the country.
Reagan was disliked in Europe by many people (as you might expect those to the left of the European centre) but he was still popular with many, Thatcher and Reagan’s close relationship was generally approved of, especially by members of her own party, whereas the Blair Bush relationship is a cause of despair amongst the Labour membership.Axis Kast wrote:Reagan was strongly disliked in Europe during his first few years in office.
The level of loathing inspired by Bush Jnr is highly unusual maybe even exceptional and simply can’t be explained away by him being “conservative”.
But why is hating Bush popular? Well from a European perspective it’s because there are so many things to hate about him from Kyoto (which I know most people here don’t like that doesn’t stop many people in Britian being annoyed about the way Bush wrecked the treaty), his general hostility to environmentalism of any kind, his regressive social policies, his constant god bothering which really disconcerts many Europeans, his general fuck the rest of the world stance and of course Iraq, it’s not just a fashion there’s real substance there for many people.On the other hand, I seriously doubt most of the poor reaction to Bush in Europe has to do with politics. So few people can even articulate their own opinions, let alone their reactions to those of Bush, that it's far more probable the hatred comes from a falsified perception passed down to them by friends. Let's face it: hating Bush is just popular, and those people are very unlikely to run into any of his supporters anyway.
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Reagan was fairly popular in Canada.Glocksman wrote:I was in high school during Reagan's first term and I remember massive protests from those CND cocksuckers protesting against Reagan and his plans to base Pershing II's at (IIRC) Greenham Commons.
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Regan long suffered the ire of those who wanted to speed the development of a European community as well. Not to mention that his relationship with Thatcher was wracked in ’82 by the poor fashion in which the United States handled the Falklands Crisis.Reagan was disliked in Europe by many people (as you might expect those to the left of the European centre) but he was still popular with many, Thatcher and Reagan’s close relationship was generally approved of, especially by members of her own party, whereas the Blair Bush relationship is a cause of despair amongst the Labour membership.
I didn’t say that it could. There are many reasons for intellectuals to dislike George Bush. On the other hand, the overwhelming majority of those who profess dislike of Bush are not intellectuals. Most of his detractors know very little about his actual policies, and prefer to parrot the silly by-lines of professional protestors and media pundits. Case-in-point: on a recent vacation to the Caribbean, I met two New Yorkers who insisted that Bush had purposely dropped the ball on 9/11. They then proceeded to tell me that they would vote Republican in the next election to punish the Democrat, Bush.The level of loathing inspired by Bush Jnr is highly unusual maybe even exceptional and simply can’t be explained away by him being “conservative”.
Kyoto was killed and buried in Europe, according to Britain’s own Deputy Prime Minister. Bush wasn’t the one who doomed that treaty. I will, however, acknowledge that misrepresentations of the process have tarnished Bush among the left. And there was already plenty for environmentalists to despise in his Republican platform.
But why is hating Bush popular? Well from a European perspective it’s because there are so many things to hate about him from Kyoto (which I know most people here don’t like that doesn’t stop many people in Britian being annoyed about the way Bush wrecked the treaty), his general hostility to environmentalism of any kind, his regressive social policies, his constant god bothering which really disconcerts many Europeans, his general fuck the rest of the world stance and of course Iraq, it’s not just a fashion there’s real substance there for many people.
As for Bush’s social policies and religious beliefs, I remind you that Europe is hardly the paragon of liberalism you hold them up to be. Religion is still strong in Europe – especially in Southern Europe, including Spain, France, and Italy. I really doubt that Bush’s social agenda is the true cause of people’s anger, but rather more ammunition they can use against him.
Bush’s “fuck the world” stance and his unilateralism in Iraq are the primary causes of his troubles with the international community. Of course, in this day and age, I’m willing to trade some casual insults to get things done on our own. It isn’t as if all of our treaty obligations have suddenly been sundered.
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Britain will meet our Kyoto obligations and one can't really take John Prescott's word on anything as fact, the EU has been running about promoting Kyoto to the best of their ability so I find it hard to believe Europe is responsible for Kyoto’s "failure".Axis Kast wrote: Kyoto was killed and buried in Europe, according to Britain’s own Deputy Prime Minister.
if i understand the situation in italy and spain correctly, then people there really tend to be very religious but don´t try to spread their beliefs to others or even try to introduce creationism and crap like that in schools.Axis Kast wrote: Religion is still strong in Europe – especially in Southern Europe, including Spain, France, and Italy.
for france i´m very sure that they´re not esspecially religious.
what´s your source?
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While France is a very secular state there are still a lot of people who take Christianity quite seriously there. Probably mostly in the south of France, which is really a different world to the north.salm wrote:if i understand the situation in italy and spain correctly, then people there really tend to be very religious but don´t try to spread their beliefs to others or even try to introduce creationism and crap like that in schools.Axis Kast wrote: Religion is still strong in Europe – especially in Southern Europe, including Spain, France, and Italy.
for france i´m very sure that they´re not esspecially religious.
what´s your source?
But yeah, I'd agree with your take on it. European Christians are rarely very fanatical, but that does not mean they take the religion any less seriously.
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The real issue is whether European national leaders find it necessary to mention God every five seconds in their public addresses, I always get very uncomfortable when watching Bush (in particular although other politicians do it to) give a speech for this very reason.Lord_Woodlouse wrote: But yeah, I'd agree with your take on it. European Christians are rarely very fanatical, but that does not mean they take the religion any less seriously.
Tony Blair may be a Christian and may sneak off to church with his wife and kids at the weekend but you would never know it from his speeches to the public, he keeps his religion a private matter as it should be unlike Bush and many US politicians.