Female gential mutiliation

[Ace Pace]

No link, its the payed area.

The unkindest cut for a woman

Sep 2nd 2004 | CAIRO AND EJERE
From The Economist print edition

Slow progress in eliminating female genital mutilation


IN SUDAN, they call it tahoor or “purification”. In Sierra Leone, it is known as bondo or “initiation”. But English has a grislier term for it: female genital mutilation. In its mildest form, a girl has the skin covering her clitoris nicked or excised. In the severest variety, called infibulation, her external genitalia are cut away and her vagina is sewn up.

Female mutilation is not a rare practice. Although numbers are hard to come by, an estimated 130m girls and women now alive are thought to have undergone the procedure in more than two dozen African countries, as well as in parts of Asia, the Middle East and some immigrant communities in the West. The frequency of it varies according to ethnic group and country, from a quarter of women in Nigeria to more than 90% in Mali, recent surveys indicate. The timing and type of mutilation also differs. In Egypt, for example, girls undergo one of the milder forms, usually around puberty. In Somalia, infibulation is common, often a few weeks before marriage.

There are certainly sound medical reasons for eliminating the practice. Immediate complications include heavy bleeding, infections—such as AIDS—transmitted by unsterile knives, and a nasty condition known as urinary retention. And, not only does mutilation turn sexual intercourse into a numb or painful experience for women, but the more radical forms can lead to prolonged labour and potentially lethal complications during childbirth.

The International Conference on Population and Development, held in Cairo ten years ago, launched a big push against mutilation. Since then, 13 African countries have passed legislation banning the practice. Education also helps, but simply explaining the medical hazards is not enough. At the time of the Cairo conference, as many as 97% of Egyptian women were thought to have been circumcised, usually by a daya (a village midwife). A decade of communication on the health risks of mutilation means that figure has fallen slightly, but the big shift is that the procedure is now performed mainly by doctors, which makes medical arguments against it less convincing to those who seek it out.

As Nahid Toubia, the head of Rainbo, a charity working against the practice, observes, stamping mutilation out is a slow process. Many societies believe that a woman will become agitated, overbearing, sexually voracious—and so unmarriageable—unless her clitoris is controlled. Or, as one woman in Ejere, a village in southern Ethiopia, explained, “I had my daughter circumcised so she wouldn't break the dishes.”

Sewing up the vagina? wtf does that mean?
This is even worse then male mutiliation.

[The Cleric]

I saw an article in RD years ago on this topic. Chills me, and pisses me off that there are people that ignorant out there.

[CJvR]

Sewing up the vagina? wtf does that mean?

Exactly what it sounds like unfortunately. This extreme form is thankfully not that common.

IIRC, and I which Im not, it means that after cutting off all the external parts the wounds are sown together leaving only a small opening for urine and menstrual blood. It also means that a knife is required on the wedding night.

[Ace Pace]

That's disgusting, completly disgusting.

[Sarevok]

FGM is unislamic and has no basic in the religon. It should be banned.

[Ace Pace]

Where the hell did anyone mention Islam? that was just totatly random.

[Sarevok]

Where the hell did anyone mention Islam? that was just totatly random.

I forgot to add. Some of the people practicing FGM claim it is manadated by religon like male circumcision. Hence I mentioned it has no real basis in Islam.

[Ace Pace]

Ah okey.

Where did the practice orginate, does any of our history buffs know?

[GoldenFalcon]

Um, if you sew up the vagina, how the hell are you supposed to...you know...

[Ace Pace]

As the guy said above... knife to cut it open.

*puke*

[LadyTevar]

As the guy said above... knife to cut it open.

*puke*

.... as I understood it, the male simply forces himself inside. No knife to widen the hole, simply brute force to tear the opening wide enough.

[Ace Pace]

Ah, still... so much pain...

[Patrick Ogaard]

Ah okey.

Where did the practice orginate, does any of our history buffs know?

The most extreme form is apparently called Pharaonic (or somesuch) circumcision, and is apparently a local folk custom that filtered down from southern Egypt. Obviously the term itself implies -- however inaccurate it may or may not be -- that the practice has ancient Egyptian origins. Islam is often cited as justification for the practice, though it is, as far as I know, a completely baseless claim.

The men in the area are ignorant of how unmutilated women should look, and are generally ignorant of how the women perceive the matter, since men and women aren't much given to talking to each other about sensitive matters. It's not like husbands and wives are terribly likely to be on a first name basis. The women, on the other hand, know exactly how painful and awful the practice is, but are worried that an unmutilated girl won't get a man, and anyhow, it's something they went through as girls, and like hazing rituals around the world, maybe it feels just a little bit good to pass the pain on to the next generation, vicarious payback. The old woman is called in, the girl gets a new dress and the standard line of, "This is your big day, be happy and all that neat stuff." Then out comes the resharpened double-edged razor blade and the bit of sharpened bottle glass, a needle and thread, and a couple of women to hold the kid down.

Essentially, the problem is ignorance. Modern Western folk are pretty solidly ignorant of actual facts of reproductive physiology and psychology, so it should come as no surprise that people who have an actual excuse for their appalling ignorance should do ignorant and appalling things. Then there's the fact that what was good for one's ancestors into the dawn of man has to be good for the present and the future...

As an illustrative example of ignorance at work, a common Western male misconception, one still not always stamped out by sex education, is that women have a second set of teeth, and that they'll bite stuff right off or hold on for hours. It probably comes in part from most youngster in the 'good old days' having received their actual knowledge of sex from watching the dogs in the farmyard, which involves a painful yelp from the male, followed by an hour or so of being awkwardly stuck together.

[Plekhanov]

The fight against FGM which is a truly barbaric and tragically widespread practice in parts of Northern Africa, the Middle East and even goes on in immigrant communities from those areas in my home town quite possibly yours too, is a part of Amnesty Internationals ongoing Stop Violence Against Women campaign.

I did a some campaigning on the issue with my group earlier this year if any of you guys are interested in learning more about the issue or turning you disgust into action click on this link to Amnesty’s excellent page on FGM it has lots of info on the problem and links to organisations all around the world that you can lend your support to.

It really is a very easy issue to campaign on (unless you’re overly squeamish) as very few people fail to write letter, sign a petition or make a donation once you describe the practice to them and I think it’s an issue that real progress can be made on within our lifetime with enough effort.

Testimony
"I was genitally mutilated at the age of ten. I was told by my late grandmother that they were taking me down to the river to perform a certain ceremony, and afterwards I would be given a lot of food to eat. As an innocent child, I was led like a sheep to be slaughtered.

Once I entered the secret bush, I was taken to a very dark room and undressed. I was blindfolded and stripped naked. I was then carried by two strong women to the site for the operation. I was forced to lie flat on my back by four strong women, two holding tight to each leg. Another woman sat on my chest to prevent my upper body from moving. A piece of cloth was forced in my mouth to stop me screaming. I was then shaved.

When the operation began, I put up a big fight. The pain was terrible and unbearable. During this fight, I was badly cut and lost blood. All those who took part in the operation were half-drunk with alcohol. Others were dancing and singing, and worst of all, had stripped naked.

I was genitally mutilated with a blunt penknife.

After the operation, no one was allowed to aid me to walk. The stuff they put on my wound stank and was painful. These were terrible times for me. Each time I wanted to urinate, I was forced to stand upright. The urine would spread over the wound and would cause fresh pain all over again. Sometimes I had to force myself not to urinate for fear of the terrible pain. I was not given any anaesthetic in the operation to reduce my pain, nor any antibiotics to fight against infection. Afterwards, I haemorrhaged and became anaemic. This was attributed to witchcraft. I suffered for a long time from acute vaginal infections."

Hannah Koroma, Sierra Leone

[Mayabird]

Essentially, the problem is ignorance. Modern Western folk are pretty solidly ignorant of actual facts of reproductive physiology and psychology, so it should come as no surprise that people who have an actual excuse for their appalling ignorance should do ignorant and appalling things. Then there's the fact that what was good for one's ancestors into the dawn of man has to be good for the present and the future...

As an illustrative example of ignorance at work, a common Western male misconception, one still not always stamped out by sex education, is that women have a second set of teeth, and that they'll bite stuff right off or hold on for hours. It probably comes in part from most youngster in the 'good old days' having received their actual knowledge of sex from watching the dogs in the farmyard, which involves a painful yelp from the male, followed by an hour or so of being awkwardly stuck together.

I thought the vagina dentata thing was just a joke. What is all of this about Western ignorance? No one outside of these third world countries, when they hear about this, thinks that since it's an ancient tradition it must be a good thing. As far as I can tell everyone who knows about it except for those people in those shithole countries recognizes it as a terrible barbaric practice that must be stopped.

[Patrick Ogaard]

Essentially, the problem is ignorance. Modern Western folk are pretty solidly ignorant of actual facts of reproductive physiology and psychology, so it should come as no surprise that people who have an actual excuse for their appalling ignorance should do ignorant and appalling things. Then there's the fact that what was good for one's ancestors into the dawn of man has to be good for the present and the future...

As an illustrative example of ignorance at work, a common Western male misconception, one still not always stamped out by sex education, is that women have a second set of teeth, and that they'll bite stuff right off or hold on for hours. It probably comes in part from most youngster in the 'good old days' having received their actual knowledge of sex from watching the dogs in the farmyard, which involves a painful yelp from the male, followed by an hour or so of being awkwardly stuck together.

I thought the vagina dentata thing was just a joke. What is all of this about Western ignorance? No one outside of these third world countries, when they hear about this, thinks that since it's an ancient tradition it must be a good thing. As far as I can tell everyone who knows about it except for those people in those shithole countries recognizes it as a terrible barbaric practice that must be stopped.

Nope, not a joke before sex ed classes. Regardless, it's a side issue, only included to illustrate that we're hardly far removed from times with a similar level of ignorance.

What that does not mean is that such ignorance and blind adherence to tradition can excuse such practices as genital mutilation, merely explain the survival of something so unspeakable. You'll get no argument from me aginst it being "a terrible and barbaric practice that must be stopped." It is. Period.

[Durandal]

Where the hell did anyone mention Islam? that was just totatly random.

I forgot to add. Some of the people practicing FGM claim it is manadated by religon like male circumcision. Hence I mentioned it has no real basis in Islam.

Let's not be so fast to absolve Islam of all blame. It's no coincidence that the practice thrives in Muslim-fundamentalist countries. Islam doesn't exactly have a high opinion of women in general, so it practically invites travesties such as this.

[Edi]

Where the hell did anyone mention Islam? that was just totatly random.

I forgot to add. Some of the people practicing FGM claim it is manadated by religon like male circumcision. Hence I mentioned it has no real basis in Islam.

Let's not be so fast to absolve Islam of all blame. It's no coincidence that the practice thrives in Muslim-fundamentalist countries. Islam doesn't exactly have a high opinion of women in general, so it practically invites travesties such as this.

The fact that FGM is actually rooted in far older tribal customs and is practiced among both Muslims and Christians in those areas is unaltered, Durandal. Fundie Islam exacerbates it, but no more than fundie Christianity and other cults in those regions.

Edi

[Durandal]

The fact that FGM is actually rooted in far older tribal customs and is practiced among both Muslims and Christians in those areas is unaltered, Durandal. Fundie Islam exacerbates it, but no more than fundie Christianity and other cults in those regions.

And in the year 2004, it is still being practiced. Why? Because the countries in which it is prevalent are Islamic theocracies, and the Qur'an makes it clear that women are inferior to men. In other words, there is no mechanism in the Qur'an to decry this kind of behavior except to say, "Well it doesn't say that you should mutilate females' genitals. It just says that women are dirty and inferior."

[Edi]

The fact that FGM is actually rooted in far older tribal customs and is practiced among both Muslims and Christians in those areas is unaltered, Durandal. Fundie Islam exacerbates it, but no more than fundie Christianity and other cults in those regions.

And in the year 2004, it is still being practiced. Why? Because the countries in which it is prevalent are Islamic theocracies, and the Qur'an makes it clear that women are inferior to men. In other words, there is no mechanism in the Qur'an to decry this kind of behavior except to say, "Well it doesn't say that you should mutilate females' genitals. It just says that women are dirty and inferior."

They are still practicing it in nations where the majority of people are Christian too, and in nations like Nigeria that are split 50-50 between Christian and Muslim, both Muslim and Christian populations practice it.

As for the Koran saying that women are dirty and inferior, the Christians who practice FGM in those 3rd world shitholes take the parts of the Bible (especially Paul) where women are spoken of as inferior to men and use those to justify their ancient, barbaric practices.

Try again.

Edi

[Rogue 9]

I thought the vagina dentata thing was just a joke.

Well Freud didn't believe that it was a conscious fear, but rather a subconscious one that doesn't really surface except as vague fears, IIRC. How he thought he'd pinned down the source of said fear under those circumstances is anybody's guess.

[Darth Wong]

Where the hell did anyone mention Islam? that was just totatly random.

I forgot to add. Some of the people practicing FGM claim it is manadated by religon like male circumcision. Hence I mentioned it has no real basis in Islam.

If it did have a basis in Islam, would you support it? The tone of your post suggests that you fortunately don't have to support it because it has no real Islamic basis, but this, of course, implies the corrollary; that you would support something which is deemed crual and inhumane by the secular world if it had Islamic merit.

[CJvR]

Intresting question, what level of mutilation is OK to inflict on children in order to satisfy their parents religous fantasies?

One can imagine the howl of rage if all those barbaric customs were banned, still it might keep the barbarians away or at least civilize them somewhat...

[Durandal]

They are still practicing it in nations where the majority of people are Christian too, and in nations like Nigeria that are split 50-50 between Christian and Muslim, both Muslim and Christian populations practice it.

What the fuck difference does that make? My point was that you can reconcile such brutal practices with the Qur'an, which is true. What're you babbling on about Christianity for?

As for the Koran saying that women are dirty and inferior, the Christians who practice FGM in those 3rd world shitholes take the parts of the Bible (especially Paul) where women are spoken of as inferior to men and use those to justify their ancient, barbaric practices.

And? When did I ever say that this practice was exclusive to Islam?

Try again.

[Broomstick]

The best book I've read on the topic is The Female Circumcism Controversy: An Anthropological Perspective by Ellen Gruenbaum published in 2001 by the University of Philadelphia Press. It's highly educational, and not just for the graphic pictures of pharonic circumcism - which is really a female form of castration. A pharonic circumcism basically leaves an adult woman's crotch looking like the crotch of a barbie doll. It is not unusual to remove all the hair-bearing skin in the area, leaving nothing but scar tissue. The book covers attempts to outlaw the practice (which often, paradoxically, causes an upsurge in it), forms of FGM, medical ramifications, social and economic reasons it continues (it's NOT just about religion!), and the perspective of women who live in communities were ALL women undergo extreme forms of FGM at a very young age, have never seen the natural, normal form of adult female genitalia, and view unaltered vagina as a repugnant deformity.

The practice undeniably goes back to Ancient Egypt and the Sudan - there have been numerous female mummies dug up with various degrees of FGM.

In addition to the immediate problems of bleeding and infection, long term there are problems with hygiene, infection, and childbirth - in such women they MUST be cut to widen the opening for childbirth, particularly if they have been cut and re-sewn several times (we're talking about an area of the world where giving birth a dozen or more times is nothing remarkable or unusual) However, unlike an episiotomy, which cuts from the vagina towards the anus, thus preserving the nerves of the clitoris and internal arousal structures of a woman, a woman having been subjected to extreme FGM must be cut forwards. It doesn't affect her sensory nerves - they've already been destroyed - but it does prevent damage to her rectum. Unfortunately, most western OB/GYN's don't know this, these women don't discuss these things with men, even if the men are doctors, and further tragedy occurs.

As for how the man gains entry... that varies depending on the degree of FGM and local custom. In some cases, in the "sunni" category which is not so extreme, a gradual stretching can be done allowing the man entry. For the pharonic form, though, the opening may be about the size of a soda straw and the woman's own flesh acts as a chastity belt. The woman must be cut to allow intercourse. In some instances the opening is sized specifically to the man's organ. In other instances it's a "best guess". In some cases the woman is allowed some time to heal, in others the man is expected to have intercourse shortly after she is cut and the blood left on the bedding is proof of her purity.

Cutting may be done with almost anything. Sewing may be thread, but thorns are still used. Sometimes the woman is not sewn but rather the edges of the tissues are lined up and her legs bound together to stablize things until she heals.

Possessing the Secret of Joy is a novel and fictional treatment, but it covers all the major bases, including damage to children during childbirth and the fact that, with a young child thrashing about as her gentials are brutally carved away, the cutting implement may slip, causing not only a risk of bleeding to death but also permanent nerve, muscle, and tendon damage.

Women are frequently left with constant chronic pain. Incontinence, repeated infections, menstruation dysfunction, body odors, difficulty in urinating due to scar tissue... the litany goes on and on.

In most cases of pharonic circumcism, and plenty of the lesser sunni versions, women are left completely incapable of sexual response and feeling (when they don't have chronic pain, or acute pain with every intercourse). However, there are instances of women retaining some sexual feeling and function - no doubt because this is surgery by amateurs concerned with cosmetic (if that's the word) appearances than what's going on underneath the surface. In fact, some people are trying to promote a form of FGM where the clitoral structure is preserved - it basically involves pulling a layer of skin over much of the genital structure to give a similar appearance to traditional FGM but with fewer side effects and preservation of sensation. Anyhow, it is ironic that by driving some of the FGM into hospitals, to be done by doctors, the women may be left with less sexual function that with the village practitioners because the doctors know their anatomy and are so much more conscientious about consistancy and precision.

Although it appears a simple issue to us, you have to consider the ramifications of the environments in which these things occur. In many areas of Somalia, for instance, an uncut woman is automatically assumed to be (choose one) a witch, a demon, a whore, or a promiscuous woman. Any one of those offenses carry the death penalty and such a woman may be executed at any time. So parents feel they much choose between having their children mutilated (although they don't see it as mutilation) and alive, or natural and dead. To people in these cultures an uncut woman is as freakish as a woman with a penis would be to us. Not to mention some of these folks practice some pretty extreme forms of male "circumcism", including one variant where the skin from the bellybutton to the end of the penis is peeled away (just from the upper side of the penis) resulting in one hell of a scar. Usually at the age of 12 or 13, no anesthia, primative "surigical" tools, adults holding down a screaming child... And the men do have complications from that sort of thing. So it's not just a female issue in some places.

All of that should satisfy most peoples' curiosity - if you have more questions maybe I can answer them (although, thankfully, I have not personal knowledge of these practices). I won't delve into the religious issues -- this clearly predates both Islam and Christianity based upon archeaological evidence. Some modern animists practice it, some don't. It's a nasty, messy, cruel thing to do, what else is there to say?