Sheikh says: "Muslims Responsible for Terror"

[SirNitram]

In a drive through Southern states, I overheard more than one conversasion about how the Oklahoma building was blown up by the CIA. Ergo, all Southerners talk about conspiracies all the time.

If that's true, then it represents considerable evidence against my position. However, I never claimed that all Muslims talk about conspiracy theories all the time. It is a significant part of the culture in Palestine, but not EVERYONE adheres to such theories.

On what evidence? 'I heard a few conversasions'? That's so retarded it doesn't even merit a true rebuttal. Again. I heard a few Southerners talk about UFO's. Obviously, discussing vast conspiracies is part of Southern culture. Same bullshit as you're shovelling.

[Joe]

In a drive through Southern states, I overheard more than one conversasion about how the Oklahoma building was blown up by the CIA. Ergo, all Southerners talk about conspiracies all the time.

I have lived here all my life and driven through the Southern states many times and on not one occasion have I head such a conversation. Ergo, by your own reasoning you are wrong.

[Joe]

Yikes, I didn't see your second post - mea culpa, mea culpa.

[Darth Wong]

In a drive through Southern states, I overheard more than one conversasion about how the Oklahoma building was blown up by the CIA. Ergo, all Southerners talk about conspiracies all the time.

I have lived here all my life and driven through the Southern states many times and on not one occasion have I head such a conversation. Ergo, by your own reasoning you are wrong.

Actually, he only has to overhear a few such conversations to make his point. And conspiracy theories about the government murdering its own people are hardly as mythical as you make them out to be. Just ask our own Glocksman, who subscribed to the "FBI burned down Waco on purpose" theory until its abject stupidity was bluntly pointed out to him right here on this forum.

[SirNitram]

Yikes, I didn't see your second post - mea culpa, mea culpa.

Yea, relax, Joe. I'm mocking MoO's bad logic in declaring conspiracy theories are a major 'cultural point' or whatever bullshit clarification will be made next. They aren't.. No more than Area 51 is a major American cultural point(Then again...).

[Master of Ossus]

Yikes, I didn't see your second post - mea culpa, mea culpa.

Yea, relax, Joe. I'm mocking MoO's bad logic in declaring conspiracy theories are a major 'cultural point' or whatever bullshit clarification will be made next.

They ARE a huge point in Muslim culture. I'm not sure what evidence you suggest I bring up, since it's impossible to gather such information, now. However, it's clear that in Muslim culture such conspiracy theories are MUCH more wide-spread, if only because they are massively supported by the press.

They aren't.. No more than Area 51 is a major American cultural point(Then again...).

I agree that the Area 51 nonsense nearly reached endemic proportions, but still falls short of the sort of widespread conspiracy theorizing that goes on in the Middle East. Last time I checked, virtually every frickin' day, Al Jazeera talks about conspiracy theories on its "news" casts. Is that true of Area 51? No, and Area 51 was about the biggest conspiracy theory ever in the US--larger even than the "Who shot JFK" thing.

[Darth Wong]

I agree that the Area 51 nonsense nearly reached endemic proportions, but still falls short of the sort of widespread conspiracy theorizing that goes on in the Middle East.

Do you have some poll numbers to back up your assertion that more than 70% of the entire Middle East believes the US blew up its own WTC? Or that 70% of the population believing in something is not enough to make it a "cultural point"?

[Master of Ossus]

I agree that the Area 51 nonsense nearly reached endemic proportions, but still falls short of the sort of widespread conspiracy theorizing that goes on in the Middle East.

Do you have some poll numbers to back up your assertion that more than 70% of the entire Middle East believes the US blew up its own WTC? Or that 70% of the population believing in something is not enough to make it a "cultural point"?

Hmmm... I guess not. Alright.

[Coyote]

Well, sorry to be away from the subject, but we've had a brief interruption of outside lines... anyhow, this seemed relevent in the aftermath of the Breslan School attack:

'The Arabs and the Muslims Today Contribute Nothing to Civilization and Progress Except for Blood, Severed Heads, Scorched Bodies, and the Abduction and Murder of Children'

Iraqi columnist Aziz Al-Hajj wrote on the progressive Internet site www.elaph.com: "What kind of national cause is this that uses children like gasoline for igniting a total war of destruction in the name of national and religious liberty?… The Islamic-Arab terrorism has turned into the greatest danger in the world, and threatens civilization, security, and life everywhere. It is today the symbol of evil, religious fanaticism, and moral degradation, and it is the essence of political crime in today's world… Islamic terrorism is the outcome of 'moderate' political Islam, as it is generally described. The latest proof of this is Sheikh [Yousef] Al-Qaradhawi's religious legal ruling [ fatwa ] calling for the killing of all Americans in Iraq…

"The Arabs and the Muslims today contribute nothing to civilization and progress except for blood, severed heads, scorched bodies, and the abduction and murder of children. The Jihad for religion and Arab chivalry have turned into the art of exploding, booby-trapping, and spilling blood. What an innovation and what a social contribution the Arabs have made in the 21st century!!"

I understand that since 9/11 and since the US actions in Iraq, there have been some calls for reform and questioning of religious authority. Will it be enough though, and will it be followed through with?

The Libyan capitulation recently has been hailed as a step in the right direction-- I try to monitor such things and I know that European diplomats have been working quietly on this for some time, even before 9/11, but in an New Yorker article (I'll try to find it) the quest by Qadhaffi to normalize picked up steam after Saddam was found in a hole ...


But as to Middle East conspiracy theories, well, they do tend to abound. Here's a sample of Arab media with a recent one:

The Jews are Behind the Attack
In the Jordanian government daily Al-Dustour, columnist George Haddad wrote: "More than one Russian commentator and a number of journalists on the satellite channels pointed out that Russian intelligence had information concerning 'contributions' that some of the Chechen factions received from Jewish oligarchs from the fields of finance, communications, and oil… [These are] the owners of the corporations and billions which were stolen from the Russian people, that after Putin's rise to power and the establishment of his rule became wanted on charges of deceit, fraud, and tax evasion …

"The most important goal of the wanted Jewish gang was to distort Putin's [public] image and to present him as someone who is not in charge of the situation, [and who is incapable] of reining in the anarchy, and who is leading the country and its residents back to the days of repression, dictatorship, and state control."

Here's another comment pointing to a Russian-Jewish conspiracy axis in the Qatari "Al-Sharq" ("The East"):

: "Who stands behind the hostage-taking operation? The Russian government blamed the Chechens but to this day it has not divulged a single name [… ]

"It is likely that the downing of the planes in Moscow [sic] and the operation against the school in Beslan were part of the struggle that the Putin government is waging against the [Russian] mafia, which has ties to Israel. Therefore it is possible that the Russian Foreign Minister is in Israel in order to negotiate and reach an agreement, or at least to obtain a promise from Sharon that he will mediate [between the government] and this mafia."

But is there hope? Indeed-- check this guy out:

, "It is always easy to flee to illusions and to place responsibility for the crimes of Arabic and Muslim terrorist organizations on the Mossad, the Zionists, and on American intelligence, but we all know that this is not the case and that those who murder innocent civilians in Iraq after having kidnapped them, those who turned civilian airplanes into destructive bombs, those who exploded trains crowded with innocent civilians and those who fired on children in a school in Ossetia – they came from our midst.

They are Arabs and Muslims who pray, fast, grow beards, demand the wearing of veils, and call for the defense of Islamic causes. Therefore we all must raise our voices, disown them and oppose all of these crimes… Whoever remains silent when faced with the murder of children, he is an accomplice to the crime. Even worse, we are employing the same moral double standard regarding people's lives that the West uses."

A disavowal of the usual refuge from responsibility. Nice. Progress is being made.


The thing to remember about Middle East/Arab society is that the opinion regarding the descent of Islam from its once-great status is two fold: one, it is because the West has come from the outside and dominated, basically tipping over their apple cart (ie, "It's not our fault, we are victims")...

But wait-- why did the secular or Christian (Dhimmi) West rise to such power? Because average Muslims lost the path to true Islam-- so it is their fault, in a way. If they return to the pure era of Islam, then Allah will restore the balance of power, with Islam on top.

Anything that trips up the Muslim world in this return to glory is the fault of others who fear an Islamic empire on the rise again-- Christians, Jews, etc. It is never a Muslim's fault-- it must be, it has to be, someone else's fault. Hence, conspiracy theories.

Conspiracy theories are great for getting blame off your back, but they also relinquish control for one's own destiny and place the power forever in someone else's hands. The Jews or whoever are always pulling the strings keeping the Muslims down-- it allows them to be weak without being weak, since it is someone else's fault. But they will be reacting and never acting, thus ensuring that no progress will be made.

Using the Jews as a scapegoat is no different than saying, "the Devil made me do it", since it places the blame and responsibility elesewhere (Devils, Jews, Aliens, Bush, Halliburton, Saddam, etc). It is anathema for "the Muslims*" to admit that they dropped the ball, made a mistake, and the wheel of history has passed them by because they couldn't handle modernization and introducing rational thought about natural laws.

Find these excerpts and more at:

http://www.memri.org/bin/latestnews.cgi?ID=SD78004

*Since it seems necessary, I will state the usual common-sense caveat that no, I do not hold "All The Muslims" guilty or responsible for the crimes of the terrorists, yes, there are many smart, intelligent, peaceful Muslims out there that contribute to society, and so on-- I'm not talking about them, okay, so if you're one of them, chill out. I'm talking about the militant fucktards and hate-mongering priests that have built a power base of blood and hate that are spoiling it for everyone. Capiche?

[PainRack]

*Since it seems necessary, I will state the usual common-sense caveat that no, I do not hold "All The Muslims" guilty or responsible for the crimes of the terrorists, yes, there are many smart, intelligent, peaceful Muslims out there that contribute to society, and so on-- I'm not talking about them, okay, so if you're one of them, chill out. I'm talking about the militant fucktards and hate-mongering priests that have built a power base of blood and hate that are spoiling it for everyone. Capiche?

*applause*

[Coyote]

Wow-- talk about timing. This appeared in the Middle East Media Research Institute today-- conspiracy theories and the Middle East. Check out a few excerpts, and you can see the whole thing here:

http://www.memri.org/bin/latestnews.cgi?ID=SR3304

Some selections:

Within hours of the September 11 attacks, conspiracy theories began to emerge in the Middle East.(1)

They were repeated by the highest echelons of powers, including Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak, who was quoted in the Egyptian paper Al-Ahram weeks after the attack: "I find it hard to believe that people who were learning to fly in Florida could, within a year and a half, fly large commercial airlines and hit with accuracy the towers of the World Trade Center which would appear, to the pilot from the air, the size of a pencil. Only a professional pilot could carry out this mission."

A year following the attacks, Saudi Arabia's powerful Interior Minister Prince Nayef more explicitly blamed "the Zionists."

Mainstream media continues to stoke the fires of conspiracy theory in that region of the world:

During this past year leading up to the third anniversary of the attacks, there has been a consistent stream of articles and TV programs in the region's government-controlled media continuing to focus on conspiracy theories surrounding the attacks. The commemoration within the region's media includes statements made by leading professors, religious leaders, government officials, and even Muslim-Americans.

These conspiracy theories primarily state that Arabs and Muslims were not involved and that the U.S. government and/or Jews/Israel are the true culprits. While it should be no surprise that Iran, a country with no official ties with the U.S., is supporting many lies regarding September 11, the U.S.'s closet Arab allies, Egypt and Saudi Arabia, are also supportive of these lies.

These are not basement whako groups or underground movements, like the UFO cultists or Kennedy freaks, or even the people that believe that US government weather generators create artificial tornadoes in the poor regions of the country to get rid of the excess population of poor people (yeah, they exist, I've read some of their stuff)... this is government official news outlets and major "news" organizations that mislead the common man in the region--

In Egypt, Former Dean of Humanities at 'Ein Shams University, Mustafa Shak'a, was interviewed by Iqra TV on June 16, 2004. Shak'a attributed the September 11 attacks to the U.S. and the Jews: "To this day, we don't know who attacked the U.S. on September 11. [...]The operation was 100% American, and this is not the place to elaborate, but what proves the operation was a Jewish one is that five Jews climbed up a high building and filmed the first attack of the first plane…"(2)

But wait, I thought he said that no one knew who attacked America on Sept. 11... but he knows it was 100% American... well, maybe it was Jewish... he goes in three different directions at once in one paragraph.

In an article in the Egyptian government daily Al-Gumhouriyya titled 'The Secret Israeli Weapon,' published on April 23, 2004, deputy editor Abd Al-Wahhab 'Adas accused the Jews of perpetrating all terrorism throughout the world, including the September 11 attacks:

"Actually, it is they who are behind the events of September 11. Proof of this is what was broadcast by the Canadian news agency on September 17 … that prior to the events the CIA had received a report that the Mossad would carry out an attack operation on American territory, in a new attempt to divert attention from the barbaric Israeli operations against the Palestinian people. [...] America knows very well that the Jews and the Mossad are behind these events, it will never declare the results of the investigations..."

Even pop culture is in on the act.

In Egypt this past year one of the most popular songs says that the U.S. was behind September 11. The following are excerpts from a review in the January 15-22, 2004 Cairo Times of beloved Egyptian singer Sha'ban Abd Al-Rahim's new album, which included the song:

"[Popular] singer Sha'ban Abd Al-Rahim is making headlines again with his announcement that he has put the final touches on his latest album Mahibish Al Karasi (I Don't Like the Chairs) — possibly referring to political positions as opposed to furniture. The new album includes a new ditty about the U.S., Israel, and the road map.

'Kharittat Al Tariq' (Road Map) is the name of the song which gives voice to widespread views in the Egyptian street regarding the September 11th events and the U.S.-Iraq standoff… Abd Al-Rahim … boldly sing that the U.S.A. is the perpetrator of the September 11th attacks. 'Hey people it was only a tower and I swear by God that they are the ones who pulled it down.'

This is but a shadow of the samples available at the web site. Check it out. Some of it is prety crazy, and makes wierd ol' Uncle Bob in the basement watching the Zapruder tapes for the 4,000th time seem like a pretty well-adjusted social guy...

[Bob the Gunslinger]

So, wait. They celebrated on Sept 11th because they were thrilled to see terrorist actions kill thousands of Americans, something they (the clergy and media) very openly support in some areas. Then they say that the Jews are behind this event and call it a bad thing, a terrible atrocity.

So, they were applauding the actions of the Jews?

[Xenophobe3691]

So, wait. They celebrated on Sept 11th because they were thrilled to see terrorist actions kill thousands of Americans, something they (the clergy and media) very openly support in some areas. Then they say that the Jews are behind this event and call it a bad thing, a terrible atrocity.

So, they were applauding the actions of the Jews?

Remember the concept of the Two Minutes Hate? It doesn't matter if its logical or not, as long as you can hate with passion!!!