Apparently the Punisher is a radical leftist commie.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2004-09-05 09:13pm

Glocksman wrote:
Durandal wrote:Because when I think of The Punisher, the first thing that comes to mind is "Leftist pinko-commie bed-wetter."
The first thing that comes to my mind is "Cheap Mack Bolan ripoff"

"This isn't revenge. It's punishment ... Peace everyone!"

Glocksman · Post by **Glocksman** » 2004-09-05 09:19pm

Durandal wrote:
Glocksman wrote:
Durandal wrote:Because when I think of The Punisher, the first thing that comes to mind is "Leftist pinko-commie bed-wetter."
The first thing that comes to my mind is "Cheap Mack Bolan ripoff"
"This isn't revenge. It's punishment ... Peace everyone!"

"I am not their Judge, I'm their Judgement!"

Loner · Post by **Loner** » 2004-09-05 09:26pm

Glocksman wrote:
Durandal wrote:Because when I think of The Punisher, the first thing that comes to mind is "Leftist pinko-commie bed-wetter."
The first thing that comes to my mind is "Cheap Mack Bolan ripoff"

Yeah well, Mack Bolan never took out 4 VC snipers with an M60.

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2004-09-06 02:44am

Gil Hamilton wrote:I don't know anything about the Ultimate line, never read any of them, but I do know that the Avengers have had plenty of mutants over the years, including notables like Scarlet Witch, Quicksilver, and the beloved blue fuzzy man, Hank McCoy.

Wasp is the only mutant on the Ultimates. And that's a secret. Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch don't count because they aren't officially on the team, and are more like mercenaries than true members.

Of course, now that I think about it, X-Factor always was a government agency and they were all mutants (I don't know about now, I seem to them remember picking up a human), even though other parts of the government have tried to dick them over.

The treatment of mutants differs probably because people don't know how to feel about them. The genetically enhanced people tend to be either good or evil. It's pretty clear how they are, and pretty public too. I mean, you have super soldiers like Captain America, it's pretty clear he's going to be a good guy. You even get to pick the right person for that. Then you have guys like Kraven who pay to be genetically altered. That's illegal. So you know whoever does that purposefully isn't going to be good.

For mutants it's less clear. For one thing, they could be anybody. And there is no clear division between a good mutant and an evil mutant that is easy to see. So while you have the MRA, you also have it declared that being a mutant is declared an act of God and not subject to the same laws regarding genetic modifications that would be the equivalent of a natural mutation, ie Wasp is okay but if Giant Man paid to have that done to himself that would be illegal. X-Factor seemed like some attempt to legitimize mutants. There was a lot of fear about them after all, what with a proposed war that normal humans likely wouldn't be able to win. So the government either had to legitimize them, or run the risk of alienating them and pushing them to join someone like Magneto.

Skelron · Post by **Skelron** » 2004-09-06 03:04am

neoolong wrote: Wasp is the only mutant on the Ultimates. And that's a secret. Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch don't count because they aren't officially on the team, and are more like mercenaries than true members.

Well yes and no, officially these days the X-Men are a sub-team of the Ultimates, or rather of the Shield program. A rather interesting devolpment I think and one that is showing the advantages for plot reasons, and a ealisitic one, as no matter how 'good intentioned' it is unlikely that a government would allow such powerful beings to operate as a independent group of basically vigilanties.

The treatment of mutants differs probably because people don't know how to feel about them. The genetically enhanced people tend to be either good or evil. It's pretty clear how they are, and pretty public too. I mean, you have super soldiers like Captain America, it's pretty clear he's going to be a good guy. You even get to pick the right person for that. Then you have guys like Kraven who pay to be genetically altered. That's illegal. So you know whoever does that purposefully isn't going to be good.

For mutants it's less clear. For one thing, they could be anybody. And there is no clear division between a good mutant and an evil mutant that is easy to see. So while you have the MRA, you also have it declared that being a mutant is declared an act of God and not subject to the same laws regarding genetic modifications that would be the equivalent of a natural mutation, ie Wasp is okay but if Giant Man paid to have that done to himself that would be illegal. X-Factor seemed like some attempt to legitimize mutants. There was a lot of fear about them after all, what with a proposed war that normal humans likely wouldn't be able to win. So the government either had to legitimize them, or run the risk of alienating them and pushing them to join someone like Magneto.

Exactly you can't make it illegal to have a certain genetic structure naturally, you can make it illegal to modify your Genes. Thats not to say Mutents arn't hated they are, and the sentinel program shows it, it also shows why they have to be careful with Mutents. Look at what the Sentinel program ended achieving, Washington DC under attack, the robots supposed to protect mankind from the Mutants now seeking to wipe out Humanity and protect the mutants. Magneto forcing the president, (Heavily hinted at but I don't think confirmed, Bush) to literally lick his boots clean.

Basically the humans fear the Mutents but they recognise that perhaps it isn't the best option to go after them in a manner similar to the sentinel program because... sooner or later a Mutent is going to come along who can counter such things.

One of the things I like about the ultimates line is they are able to do things a lot more realistically, I can imagine society with Genetic manipulation tech and Mutents creating Laws much along those lines, and responding in such a manner.

Actually this is a cool sub topic, could I suggest to a mood to split this from the main thread...

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2004-09-06 01:14pm

Skelron wrote:Well yes and no, officially these days the X-Men are a sub-team of the Ultimates, or rather of the Shield program.

Are they? I thought that unofficially Fury helps them, but the X-Men aren't technically part of SHIELD.

Bah, I haven't caught up reading all of it yet.

Tsyroc · Post by **Tsyroc** » 2004-09-06 11:23pm

neoolong wrote: Are they? I thought that unofficially Fury helps them, but the X-Men aren't technically part of SHIELD.

Bah, I haven't caught up reading all of it yet.

I don't know that they are actually part of SHIELD the way the Ultimates are but they are definately under Fury's jurisdiction. I think he'd mostly prefer that the X-Men stay out of things unless asked but he recognizes the good that Xavier's school can do. So SHIELD is kind of part of the government team that keeps an official eye on the X-Men, like they probably do with all known mutants/mutates/gentic mods etc...

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2004-09-06 11:32pm

neoolong wrote:Wasp is the only mutant on the Ultimates. And that's a secret. Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch don't count because they aren't officially on the team, and are more like mercenaries than true members.

Wasp isn't a mutant, she got superpowers induced upon her by her colleague Henry Pym, AKA Ant-Man.

Also, last I checked, Quicksilver and Wanda are still Avengers, as Quicksilver is married to Crystal and Scarlet Witch joined with him after the old Brotherhood broke up and they decided to do good.

Maybe it's different in Ultimates?

frigidmagi · Post by **frigidmagi** » 2004-09-06 11:36pm

It is. For one thing Wanda and Peitro there are willing known leaders of the Brotherhood of Mutants, so they cannot be brought into the Ultimates openly without alot backlash (the ulimate universe is more racial divided than the mainline.)

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2004-09-06 11:37pm

Tsyroc wrote:I don't know that they are actually part of SHIELD the way the Ultimates are but they are definately under Fury's jurisdiction. I think he'd mostly prefer that the X-Men stay out of things unless asked but he recognizes the good that Xavier's school can do. So SHIELD is kind of part of the government team that keeps an official eye on the X-Men, like they probably do with all known mutants/mutates/gentic mods etc...

I always got the feeling that Nick Fury and Xavier have an understanding with each other, so SHIELD looks the other way alot, while occasionally Fury will "ask" X-Men for help. Case in point, after Jean and Scott were returned to the present from their stint in the far future with Cable, Nick plucked them up to have them help out with a mutant problem that SHIELD really wasn't equipped to do anything about and the X-Men weren't available (due to the Phalanx IIRC).

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2004-09-06 11:38pm

Gil Hamilton wrote:
neoolong wrote:Wasp is the only mutant on the Ultimates. And that's a secret. Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch don't count because they aren't officially on the team, and are more like mercenaries than true members.
Wasp isn't a mutant, she got superpowers induced upon her by her colleague Henry Pym, AKA Ant-Man.

Not in the Ultimates. She's a mutant. It is kept as a secret though. Says so in Ultimate War.

Also, last I checked, Quicksilver and Wanda are still Avengers, as Quicksilver is married to Crystal and Scarlet Witch joined with him after the old Brotherhood broke up and they decided to do good.

The Ultimates is fairly new so they started out as basically mercenaries. They weren't officially on the team.

Maybe it's different in Ultimates?

Yes.

Tsyroc · Post by **Tsyroc** » 2004-09-07 12:36am

Gil Hamilton wrote: Wasp isn't a mutant, she got superpowers induced upon her by her colleague Henry Pym, AKA Ant-Man.

Also, last I checked, Quicksilver and Wanda are still Avengers, as Quicksilver is married to Crystal and Scarlet Witch joined with him after the old Brotherhood broke up and they decided to do good.

Maybe it's different in Ultimates?

It's different in the Ultimates.

The Wasp is a mutant and Henry Pym used her natural size changing abilities in his research that eventually allowed him to do his Giant-Man thing. Oh yeah, Jan is also of Asian ancestry and is much more of a scientist in her own right.

Quicksilver and the Scarlet Witch are part of the Ultimates in a sense but it's usually shown after the fact that they were involved in some operation. Plus, the way they always hang on to each other its a little creepy, at least to me. They seem a little too close as brother & sister.

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2004-09-07 01:11am

Tsyroc wrote:Quicksilver and the Scarlet Witch are part of the Ultimates in a sense but it's usually shown after the fact that they were involved in some operation. Plus, the way they always hang on to each other its a little creepy, at least to me. They seem a little too close as brother & sister.

It's been hypothesized that they're lovers. Nothing confirmed though.

Skelron · Post by **Skelron** » 2004-09-07 02:00am

Tsyroc wrote:
neoolong wrote: Are they? I thought that unofficially Fury helps them, but the X-Men aren't technically part of SHIELD.

Bah, I haven't caught up reading all of it yet.
I don't know that they are actually part of SHIELD the way the Ultimates are but they are definately under Fury's jurisdiction. I think he'd mostly prefer that the X-Men stay out of things unless asked but he recognizes the good that Xavier's school can do. So SHIELD is kind of part of the government team that keeps an official eye on the X-Men, like they probably do with all known mutants/mutates/gentic mods etc...

I will have to check and this means digging through my stuff, but if I am not just going insane at the end of Ultimates War, I believe it was part of the deal Xavier struck with Fury to get Shield of the X-Mens back, and to keep his people out of jail.

Although it was also part of Xavier's long term goal... Which is another thing I like about the Ultimates verse, Xavier has a plan, a real long term plan beyond simple... 'So we shall save humans using our mutent powers and they will grow to trust us, and no longer hate us'

He has a very definite plan and is slowly advancing it
Part 1.) End the Sentinel program.... remove the presence of Magneto as a oppossing ideal leader.

Part 2.) With Magneto's influance gone, work on the new leadership of the Brotherhood, get the Brotherhood into a more passive resistence style movement from the more terrorist orientated one.

Part 3.) Get Official government sanction for what we do, make us a part of the system... And make us an Insider group where we can directly influance the politics of the President and the world at large.

(Although note with the Brotherhood more peaceful in it's goals, it would allow him the perfect foil, his X-Men work as insiders while the Brotherhood continues as outsiders, giving him access to both forms of protest and influance.)

In all honesty it is a plan that could actually work.... Certainly a lot better than the 'We be nice to people and they will like us' Theory of the mainstream Xavier.

frigidmagi · Post by **frigidmagi** » 2004-09-07 02:51am

It's been hypothesized that they're lovers. Nothing confirmed though

And Wanda attempted to seduce Scott during his defection to Magneto's camp because?

Tsyroc · Post by **Tsyroc** » 2004-09-07 03:50am

frigidmagi wrote:
It's been hypothesized that they're lovers. Nothing confirmed though
And Wanda attempted to seduce Scott during his defection to Magneto's camp because?

Magneto told her to. Not that we ever see that but it's possible. He's certainly that much of an ass, but it did seem like she liked Cyclops.

Really it wasn't until after Magneto was out of the picture that whenever we see Quicksilver and the Scarlet Witch that she seems to be hanging off of him in what seems like much more than a sisterly fashion.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2004-09-07 04:00am

I wonder what they'd say about The Losers, the central plot point of which is a far-reaching conspiracy in US intelligence services, doing much worse things than they do in Punisher. But then, Clay is a big mouth patriot, and he lurves the President. Maybe thats the difference. Or that its DC.

I heard the creators got asked if having an Arab character was seen as 'too sensitive'... lol

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2004-09-08 04:36am

How about the line in Fury, where after the bad guy has sent a message to the U.S. President telling him to suck his dick, Ennis gives us the line 'They say he's an idiot, but what about the people who let him near the microphone?'

It really isn't difficult to show that Ennis doesn't like W, its kind of like his general lack of regard for the French.

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2004-09-08 08:56am

neoolong wrote:It's been hypothesized that they're lovers. Nothing confirmed though.

So, what, Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch aren't Magneto's kids in Ultimates?

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2004-09-08 09:04am

Tsyroc wrote:Magneto told her to. Not that we ever see that but it's possible. He's certainly that much of an ass, but it did seem like she liked Cyclops.

Really it wasn't until after Magneto was out of the picture that whenever we see Quicksilver and the Scarlet Witch that she seems to be hanging off of him in what seems like much more than a sisterly fashion.

Well, in vintage X-Men, Scarlet Witch always did want Scott to throw her down, but he was too busy being interested in anyone with Jean Grey's DNA. so she settled for Vision*. However, I seem to recall one What If? where Jean and Warren do the Mutant Nasty, causing Scott to leave the team and join the Brotherhood, where he bangs Wanda alot.

*(which was a better choice, in my opinion, cause he can do all night long and doesn't blow buick sized holes in steel walks if not wearing his special glasses... besides, how can you go wrong with a Martian Manhunter rip-off?)

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2004-09-08 12:01pm

Gil Hamilton wrote:
neoolong wrote:It's been hypothesized that they're lovers. Nothing confirmed though.
So, what, Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch aren't Magneto's kids in Ultimates?

No, they are.

Loner · Post by **Loner** » 2004-09-08 05:00pm

consequences wrote:How about the line in Fury, where after the bad guy has sent a message to the U.S. President telling him to suck his dick, Ennis gives us the line 'They say he's an idiot, but what about the people who let him near the microphone?'

It really isn't difficult to show that Ennis doesn't like W, its kind of like his general lack of regard for the French.

Oh yeah. I have that in TPB, really funny. I also liked the other time Ennis took another shot at him in Thor: Vikings.

On a sidenote: In issue #13 of the Punisher MAX series, the MAX version of Nick Fury will co-star for some arc that takes place in Russia.