And Israel proceeds to begin the shit kicking.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2004-09-06 07:43pm

A portrait of a Hamas militant is seen as Palestinian students of the Al Najah University in the northern West Bank city of Nablus peruse through displays of books and stationary in the first day of the academic year Monday Sept. 6, 2004.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/474276.html

At least 14 Palestinians were killed and 30 wounded when Israel Air Force helicopters hit a Hamas site in Gaza City around midnight Monday, witnesses said.

Four of the casualties are critically wounded, and witnesses said all were either members of the Hamas military wing or supporters.

The strike targeted a Hamas community center complex, including a building and a yard, that the army says is used by the Hamas military wing for training.

Hamas spokesman Mushir al-Masri denied that the targeted field was used for training, calling it a summer camp for Palestinian youth.

However, dozens of members of the Hamas military wing, Iz a-Din al-Qassam, were meeting at the building during the time of the attack, Palestinian sources said. The building is named after Hamas founder Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, who was assassinated by Israel in April.

IAF helicopter gunships fired at least five missiles at the building, located in the Sajaiya neighborhood in the eastern part of Gaza City, a known Hamas stronghold, witnesses said. The helicopters hovered overhead after the explosions.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2004-09-06 07:46pm

Beeby

At least 13 people have been killed and 20 wounded in an Israeli air strike on an alleged night training exercise by Palestinian fighters in Gaza City.

The Israeli army said its air force targeted a sports field used by the militant group Hamas.

Witnesses reported hearing at least four loud explosions in the east of the city at around midnight local time.

Israel declared war on Hamas following attacks in Beersheba last week that killed at least 16 Israelis.

Torchlight

The BBC's Alan Johnston in Gaza said a football field in the east had been the target of a major attack.

Local people said Palestinian fighters had been using the sports ground for some kind of training exercise at the time.

There are reports of chaotic and appalling scenes at the sight of the blast, with body parts scattered across the football pitch, adds our correspondent.

Local people and rescue workers rushed to the area, and people were seen using candles and torches to search for victims.

Large numbers of wounded have been taken to hospital in Gaza City.

Ace Pace · Post by **Ace Pace** » 2004-09-07 12:36am

Not again....
I knew it was coming, but all this means is probebly another suicide bombing.

Super-Gagme · Post by **Super-Gagme** » 2004-09-07 03:45am

Ever notice how every building in the Middle East that is owned by Islamic Fundies and gets blown up, turns out to be a childrens center of some kind? "What? The shooting range and exercise course? Kids playground!"

Of course they procceed to actually target a school...can't wait for the day we can all admire the glass fields of the Middle East.

Post by **Edi** » 2004-09-07 06:12am

Super-Gagme wrote:Ever notice how every building in the Middle East that is owned by Islamic Fundies and gets blown up, turns out to be a childrens center of some kind? "What? The shooting range and exercise course? Kids playground!"

In case you hadn't noticed, Hamas started out as a charity organization and only later moved to terror tactics. They still maintain the most comprehensive social security network in the Palestinian territories and their main activities focus on schools and other things. The terror operations, which are the most visible thing about them, are just a part of what they do. It also makes it convenient for them to hold meetings etc in facilities that are otherwise innocuous and gives them a propaganda tool whenever Israel attack such targets.

Super-Gagme wrote:Of course they procceed to actually target a school...can't wait for the day we can all admire the glass fields of the Middle East.

Why don't you shove a six-foot rod of redhot iron sideways up your arse and fuck off? I'm getting sick and tired of your "Let's nuke all the Muslims! *fapfapfapfapfap*" posts, and so is almost everyone else here.

Edi

Bob the Gunslinger · Post by **Bob the Gunslinger** » 2004-09-07 07:30pm

I'm not tired of them... yet.

Seriously, do Hamas leaders ever not bring children to their terror-planning sessions?

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2004-09-07 07:40pm

It is not acceptable to use children as human shields...ever.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2004-09-07 07:54pm

Edi wrote:Why don't you shove a six-foot rod of redhot iron sideways up your arse and fuck off? I'm getting sick and tired of your "Let's nuke all the Muslims! *fapfapfapfapfap*" posts, and so is almost everyone else here.

And a lot of us are just as suck and tired of hearing *Boom* "There goes another Arab-Muslim fanatic. We have to win their hearts and mind you know."

Post by **Edi** » 2004-09-08 03:43am

Stormbringer wrote:
Edi wrote:Why don't you shove a six-foot rod of redhot iron sideways up your arse and fuck off? I'm getting sick and tired of your "Let's nuke all the Muslims! *fapfapfapfapfap*" posts, and so is almost everyone else here.
And a lot of us are just as suck and tired of hearing *Boom* "There goes another Arab-Muslim fanatic. We have to win their hearts and mind you know."

I don't particularly care to see those news either, but clearly oppression and indiscriminate killing that leaves lots of civilians dead is not going to help either, so some kind of change in policies needs to happen. Remember, ten years ago when the religious extremists had not yet hijacked the process, we didn't have this problem, and it has only gotten worse since then, precisely because of the current tactics. Whatever the key to solving this problem, it is NOT what is being applied now.

In any case, if some asshole is going to advocate glassing whole geographical pregions with millions of innocents along with a few thousand guilty, I'm not going to just sit down and be silent.

Edi

LordShaithis · Post by **LordShaithis** » 2004-09-08 03:49am

Nuke Muslims! And Edi!!!

Sokartawi · Post by **Sokartawi** » 2004-09-08 06:54am

Nuke Israel! And this thread!

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-09-08 07:40am

Alyrium Denryle wrote:It is not acceptable to use children as human shields...ever.

Is it acceptable to blow them up with rockets because you don't want to risk the lives of Israeli commandos for the sake of Arab children by going in on the ground instead?

Chardok · Post by **Chardok** » 2004-09-08 07:48am

Darth Wong wrote:...Arab children by going in on the ground instead?

Any of which could have a bomb strapped to themselves anyway... it's been done. I'll stay in my nice, air-conditioned Apache, thanks.

I'm not saying it's right, I'm not saying I agree, I'm just saying that's the most likely line of reasoning. Sometimes the fly must be killed with an anvil.

CJvR · Post by **CJvR** » 2004-09-08 08:55am

Darth Wong wrote:Is it acceptable to blow them up with rockets because you don't want to risk the lives of Israeli commandos for the sake of Arab children by going in on the ground instead?

If you go in on the ground you risk having to level half the city! I think heli strikes are far better for Israelis and the Palestinian civilians, although obviously not for Hamas & co.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-09-08 08:59am

CJvR wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:Is it acceptable to blow them up with rockets because you don't want to risk the lives of Israeli commandos for the sake of Arab children by going in on the ground instead?
If you go in on the ground you risk having to level half the city!

Let me get this straight: you feel that commandos going after specific targets is going to cause MORE indiscriminate destruction than the use of artillery and rockets?

I think heli strikes are far better for Israelis and the Palestinian civilians, although obviously not for Hamas & co.

Please back up that claim.

tharkûn · Post by **tharkûn** » 2004-09-08 09:59am

Let me get this straight: you feel that commandos going after specific targets is going to cause MORE indiscriminate destruction than the use of artillery and rockets?

First I was unaware that artillery or rocket were used all that much in these strikes, every single one I can recall has been with extremely expensive missiles.

Second yes I would expect ground attacks to ultimately be more costly to the civillians than smart missile attack. Remember what happened in Jenin? If these bastards expect ground attack they will litter the approaches with improvised explosives; those tend to be very harsh on civillians. Likewise, while I expect the commandos to exercise fire control and respect rules of engagement, the bastards on the other side won't give a damn if their gunfire misses the commando and carries another hundred meters into the civillian buildings behind them.

We are talking about people who encourage collateral damage, there is reason why these guys surround themselves with children when in public and live in dense residential areas when they know they are wanted dead by the IDF. If they were 'honorable' opponents and seperated themselves from civillians then ground strikes might be less bloody, but from all appearances they try to make it is bloody as possible to kill them. We really don't want their houses fenced off with rings of explosives.

Sharp-kun · Post by **Sharp-kun** » 2004-09-08 10:19am

Darth Wong wrote:
CJvR wrote: If you go in on the ground you risk having to level half the city!
Let me get this straight: you feel that commandos going after specific targets is going to cause MORE indiscriminate destruction than the use of artillery and rockets?

Possibly. Say they kill someone on the ground, and the crowd goes ape shit and opens fire on the soldiers. What do they do then? The likely result is a lot more civilians killed as the soldiers try to defend themselves from a mob. I also find it unlikely that the Palestinians would let any commandos get near the target wihout someone informing on them, allowing the target to try to flee, which again could be far worse than any missile.

Missiles are not ideal by any means, but they are quick, and allow the terrorists little chance to react. Going in on foot I would say has a high probability of a firefight on crowded streets.

Sharp-kun · Post by **Sharp-kun** » 2004-09-08 10:20am

Doh! Messed up the quotes

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2004-09-08 10:47am

Sharp-kun wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:
CJvR wrote: If you go in on the ground you risk having to level half the city!
Let me get this straight: you feel that commandos going after specific targets is going to cause MORE indiscriminate destruction than the use of artillery and rockets?
Possibly. Say they kill someone on the ground, and the crowd goes ape shit and opens fire on the soldiers. What do they do then? The likely result is a lot more civilians killed as the soldiers try to defend themselves from a mob. I also find it unlikely that the Palestinians would let any commandos get near the target wihout someone informing on them, allowing the target to try to flee, which again could be far worse than any missile.

Missiles are not ideal by any means, but they are quick, and allow the terrorists little chance to react. Going in on foot I would say has a high probability of a firefight on crowded streets.

Actually his reasoning is this.

What's a cleaner kill...a sniper rifle or a rocket.

If you really think the rocket is the cleaner kill...you should carefully examine what a rocket does.

While a Commando excursion can erupt into chaos if the whole of the incident gets out of hand, the rocket is always going to cause a certain amount of indicriminate destruction.

Chardok · Post by **Chardok** » 2004-09-08 11:08am

Ghost Rider wrote:While a Commando excursion can erupt into chaos if the whole of the incident gets out of hand, the rocket is always going to cause a certain amount of indicriminate destruction.

Cost of a Hellfire missile: 58,000.00
Cost of training A normal, average American Marine:
source

Let’s just look at recruiting alone. This year, recruiting one Marine cost $6,539, including advertising, college fund and enlistment bonuses. Train that marine and you add $1,614, including the uniform, gear, laundry and chow. Then give that recruit some real classroom learning and tack on an additional $301. Remember, you haven’t paid him yet. Pay, allowance, clothing and moving expenses will add $19,973. Give him some ammo at $787 and then provide him with a staff of drill sergeants, teachers and support staff for $15,674. Total value of a new Marine: $44,887.

It goes without saying that a specialized sniper or storm trooper team would be significantly higher.

It's more cost effective to use a rocket!

I'm one sick fuck....

CJvR · Post by **CJvR** » 2004-09-08 11:24am

Darth Wong wrote:you feel that commandos going after specific targets is going to cause MORE indiscriminate destruction than the use of artillery and rockets?

Well it would depend on where the target was located. A nice isolated house that you are able to sneak up on is an obvious target for a commando strike. Unfortunately most Hamas members stupid enough to meet in such locations have been killed long ago by the IDF. If you have to send in an armored batallion and fight your way through a hostile city before you reach the target then a commando raid is obviously out of the question, not just because collateral damage but also because it is hard to be stealthy and not alert the enemy that you are about to crash his party while fighting a street battle.

Darth Wong wrote:Please back up that claim.

IIRC the IDF did raid Jenin and ended up leveling a significant area during several days of street fighting.

AdmiralPorkins · Post by **AdmiralPorkins** » 2004-09-08 12:22pm

Darth Wong wrote:
Let me get this straight: you feel that commandos going after specific targets is going to cause MORE indiscriminate destruction than the use of artillery and rockets?
Ghost Ride wrote:
Actually his reasoning is this.

What's a cleaner kill...a sniper rifle or a rocket.

If you really think the rocket is the cleaner kill...you should carefully examine what a rocket does

Firstly, I would agree that a sniper rifle would be more useful in this situation but only if the target was standing and waving on the very top on his building in the middle of an open field with no other buildings or civs/friends in the immediate area and if he had a bright target painted on his chest. Let me add, if it were as simple as pulling the trigger on a sniper rifle, then don't you think they would have done it?

A commando raid is just a costly dream. Urban warfare is the most costly form of hostile engagement that exists, for both sides. Imagine the commando raid not going as planned, well then all sorts of tanks bulldozers and extra men would pour into the region and cause more damage. No Israeli commander would willingly send his troops into an urban fight unless it was absolutely necessary. And in any case, how would the commando team have the element of surprise if the whole area is inhabited by the very people they are fighting?

In this case it was not necessary and therefore an advanced missile was probably used to do the job. I am in no way saying that this was the correct action however. It would have been clear to the planners that civilians would have been killed in a strike like this. It therefore comes down to this question: are civilian casualties an acceptable result of such an operation? Or should the planners face some sort of justice?

AdmiralPorkins · Post by **AdmiralPorkins** » 2004-09-08 12:24pm

IIRC the IDF did raid Jenin and ended up leveling a significant area during several days of street fighting.

Exactly! Then the world demanded that they be more careful, and hence the missile strikes we see today.

Keevan_Colton · Post by **Keevan_Colton** » 2004-09-08 01:42pm

Gamge I keep telling you, go suck a fucking .45 you sick little sack of shit. What the fuck is it with you and advocating the murder of hundereds of millions of innocent people? Does having a uniform and a fucking manifesto make it any less murder? Well?

I want a fucking answer shit for fucking brains, how do you justify your idea that killing hundereds of millions of innocent people would make the world better?

As for the rest of you, would you support the use of fucking missiles to deal with criminals in a ghetto? Why the fuck should Israel deal with this like it's a fucking war when it's criminal fucking activity, they are the ones with a responsability to protect these people. Terrorism is just a fancy name for crimes with a manifesto behind them. I dont recall the British Army shelling the shit out of built up areas to deal with the fucking IRA do any of you?

AdmiralPorkins · Post by **AdmiralPorkins** » 2004-09-08 02:21pm

As for the rest of you, would you support the use of fucking missiles to deal with criminals in a ghetto?

These are not bank robbers or nasty men who steal cars. These are mass murdering suicide bombers who think killing children will somehow get them an eternal life of sex and wine drinking. They are brainwashed, you can not talk to them. They have repeatedly said they want to drive Israel in the sea. Now I don't want to take sides in this argument between Palestinians and Jews, but I can understand why Israel want to scare the militants like this. And in any case, many of these areas are inhabited by anti-Israeli people who would cause trouble if police were to arrive and make an arrest. By your logic all the allies needed to do during WW2 was to simply go and arrest Hitler and end the war?

Why the fuck should Israel deal with this like it's a fucking war when it's criminal fucking activity, they are the ones with a responsability to protect these people.

Yes I agree they should always protect the innocent, ALWAYS!! It is their duty. But if they believe the only way they can eliminate potential terrorist actions is by killing these guys with missiles then what choice do they have.
Do we all recall the attempts by the US to kill Sadam during the recent war? Remember that time when the US had intel about Sadams location? He was eating in a restaurant and the US decided to bomb the place before he got away again. Well, I think we all remember what happened. Sadam left before the bomb hit, and the only ones to die were the innocent customers and shop workers in the area. The US was willing to kill innocents if it meant Sadam also was to be killed.

Terrorism is just a fancy name for crimes with a manifesto behind them.

I find that VERY offensive! If a complete loony blows himself and a bunch of kids apart on a bus, is that not terrorism????
How about the massacre the Russian school in Beslan, was that not terrorism??? Or do you further insult the dead by claiming it is a "fancy name"?