STGOD 4 OOC Thread (part 2)

[Marcao]

2. The Veithan report IS just conjecture. They added NO new evidence. They simply said "Telepathy isn't getting us anywhere, but this evidence could be interpreted as a Lying Darkness plot. After all, they have just as much of a motive as the White Suns, and could have pulled it off. It's a legitimate explanation of the evidence, but it's just an explanation, and an unsupported one as that.

You are full of shit Thirdfain but since you were arrogant enough to write a full fucking post, anticipating my Veithan post since you thought I was just going to agree with you, and you were going to do this war sooner or later anyway, please spare the bull.

1. We added plenty of new evidence, all pertaining to the Lying Darkness. It is impossible for the Empire to produce more evidence about what was provided by the Hajr. We showed the Lying Darkness capabilities to shape change with video and testimonials from people that dealt first hand with their agents by the way. That is evidence. We dealt with the motive aspect, but pointing out that agents from the Lying Darkness had attacked the Ravenlock TRADE fair. What was hit in Hudson again? oh yeah, the TRADE hub. Coincidence? you be the judge. The Lying Darkness has far more motive than the White Sun, I said so in the post, I want to see your evidence for claiming that the White Sun who have done very little IC have the same level of motive, as the fucking Lying Darkness who DID pull shit IC. If your people don't want to accept the Veithan points, that is totally your call. But please, cease and desist with the bullshit. This is part of the reason why I am so goddamned pissed off as of late. My post was laughingly ignored, with only the smallest of openings. All of a sudden, the Veithan Empire is the village idiot.

Veithans: "well, we found this and this and this but also this and this and this. Ladies and Gentlemen, let us talk about the Lying Darkness!"
Vampire: "boo! hiss! its a lie! I say it is a lie!"
Everyone: "if the Vampire said it, it must be true! The Veithans are full of it! Their points mean nothing! ATTACK!"
Veithans: .... [cartman] "screw you guys, I am going home."[/cartman]

[Stormbringer]

Actually, the Veithan investigation took ten days from the point your admiral was scanned. Just FYI, in-game it was an actual investigation, and not just mere head-nodding.

Ten days for an investigation like that? That's nothing. It really is a head nodding thing. As I said before to Alyrium, criminal investigations just plain take time. Ten days isn't much time, regardless of the effort Marcao put in.

More than anything, the Veithan Report shoots a massive hole in the only supporting evidence that incriminates the White Suns. You may not like it, but that is what happened.

To be quite honest it doesn't. It blames the Lying Darkness but like blaming Iraq, there's jack shit for actual proof of it. Sorry, but combined with the Vampires word it doesn't hold up much.

[Stormbringer]

Marcao, calm down man. Please, don't take this so personally.

[Hotfoot]

Actually, the Veithan investigation took ten days from the point your admiral was scanned. Just FYI, in-game it was an actual investigation, and not just mere head-nodding.

Ten days for an investigation like that? That's nothing. It really is a head nodding thing. As I said before to Alyrium, criminal investigations just plain take time. Ten days isn't much time, regardless of the effort Marcao put in.

I'm fully aware it isn't much time, but it's still far more than the mere four days Thirdfain put into his original investigation. If you'd like, we could ret-con it to be a month and change, putting the whole war on delay for that period of time. We took more than a week with this, that's a fair amount of time I would think.

More than anything, the Veithan Report shoots a massive hole in the only supporting evidence that incriminates the White Suns. You may not like it, but that is what happened.

To be quite honest it doesn't. It blames the Lying Darkness but like blaming Iraq, there's jack shit for actual proof of it. Sorry, but combined with the Vampires word it doesn't hold up much.

I don't think you understand. The only piece of Hajr evidence linking the attack to the White Suns is the recording of the Sixtra who supposedly orchestrated the affair. We called that into question as being very unreliable, due to factor A (in this case, shapeshifters). We then proceeded to put together an alternate hypothesis in order to show just how flimsy the Ouster evidence was. This was not a situation where merely shooting down the one theory would discredit the entire investigation. The Vampires and the Hajr would have to show that not only were the Lying Darkness not responsible, but no other nation with shapeshifting abilities were responsible.

And there are a fair number of nations out there with that capability.

That was the bombshell.

[SirNitram]

And again this STGOD spirals into suck-dom because people can't let go of OOC for ten fucking seconds. This bullshit fucking amazes.

'We cannot provide a reliable peice of evidence that the White Suns was not involved... So we're going to finger someone else with zero proof and expect someone else to prove our asstastic theory.' Oh. Yea. Wow. Brilliant fucking plan. Only about as transparent as wet tissue.

'We know the Ousters are evil, by, um... Magic! Yea. That's why my entire government thinks it's a massive conspiracy from the word go, despite the fact there is not one incident that suppotrs the Hajr would nuke itself. WHAT?! What do you mean the Ousters are acting evil and not doing what I say?! They can't be evil!'

'A whole ten days was spent investigating, you must beleive me utterly despite the fact I have brought no evidence to the table and even had to admit that I can't disprove the Hajr's claims!'

This metagaming is frankly disgusting.

[Stormbringer]

I'm fully aware it isn't much time, but it's still far more than the mere four days Thirdfain put into his original investigation. If you'd like, we could ret-con it to be a month and change, putting the whole war on delay for that period of time. We took more than a week with this, that's a fair amount of time I would think.

I'm not in favor of retconning this away, certainly not because it doesn't have the impact people want.

We then proceeded to put together an alternate hypothesis in order to show just how flimsy the Ouster evidence was. This was not a situation where merely shooting down the one theory would discredit the entire investigation.

This isn't a case where the scattergun approach would work. You'd have to give some hard evidence that the Lying Darkness or whoever was actually involved. Because right now the only actual evidence out of this points to the White Sun. "It inconclusive. Here's our theory" isn't going to stop this.

And there are a fair number of nations out there with that capability.

Including yours if I'm not mistaken?

[Hotfoot]

And again this STGOD spirals into suck-dom because people can't let go of OOC for ten fucking seconds. This bullshit fucking amazes.

'We cannot provide a reliable peice of evidence that the White Suns was not involved... So we're going to finger someone else with zero proof and expect someone else to prove our asstastic theory.' Oh. Yea. Wow. Brilliant fucking plan. Only about as transparent as wet tissue.

Try again. This time, try, "the only Hajr evidence of White Sun involvement is considered unreliable and thus thrown out until further corroborating evidence can be obtained."

The fact that the Lying Darkness fit the evidence better was merely to show how worthless the tape was.

'We know the Ousters are evil, by, um... Magic! Yea. That's why my entire government thinks it's a massive conspiracy from the word go, despite the fact there is not one incident that suppotrs the Hajr would nuke itself. WHAT?! What do you mean the Ousters are acting evil and not doing what I say?! They can't be evil!'

Oh, please, do tell where the Veithans or the Consortium are acting as though we know the Ousters to be evil. I would really like to hear this.

'A whole ten days was spent investigating, you must beleive me utterly despite the fact I have brought no evidence to the table and even had to admit that I can't disprove the Hajr's claims!'

Um, bullshit. We called the only key piece of evidence into major doubt with that investigation, using completely legitimate and in-game information. If you don't like it, tough, but don't try to tell us we metagamed it.

This metagaming is frankly disgusting.

I strongly suggest you review this situation again before you accuse me of metagaming. I have gone out of my way this entire game to not use out of character information or feelings to influence my in-game moves.

[SirNitram]

And again this STGOD spirals into suck-dom because people can't let go of OOC for ten fucking seconds. This bullshit fucking amazes.

'We cannot provide a reliable peice of evidence that the White Suns was not involved... So we're going to finger someone else with zero proof and expect someone else to prove our asstastic theory.' Oh. Yea. Wow. Brilliant fucking plan. Only about as transparent as wet tissue.

Try again. This time, try, "the only Hajr evidence of White Sun involvement is considered unreliable and thus thrown out until further corroborating evidence can be obtained."

'I DON'T THINK WE SHOULD ALLOW VISUAL IDENTIFICATION WAH'. No evidence was presented, skippy. By your asstastic theory, we should discard visual identification of a subject because plastic surgery exists.

The fact that the Lying Darkness fit the evidence better was merely to show how worthless the tape was.

Except, you know, no evidence for the Lying Darkness. At all. Are you even periphially aware of Occam's Razor?

'We know the Ousters are evil, by, um... Magic! Yea. That's why my entire government thinks it's a massive conspiracy from the word go, despite the fact there is not one incident that suppotrs the Hajr would nuke itself. WHAT?! What do you mean the Ousters are acting evil and not doing what I say?! They can't be evil!'

Oh, please, do tell where the Veithans or the Consortium are acting as though we know the Ousters to be evil. I would really like to hear this.

That slam was against Nashtar/Rogue 9.

'A whole ten days was spent investigating, you must beleive me utterly despite the fact I have brought no evidence to the table and even had to admit that I can't disprove the Hajr's claims!'

Um, bullshit. We called the only key piece of evidence into major doubt with that investigation, using completely legitimate and in-game information. If you don't like it, tough, but don't try to tell us we metagamed it.

'Um, shapechangers exist. Therefore, not White Sun.' is not 'calling into major doubt'. It's grasping at straws when you have zero evidence.

This metagaming is frankly disgusting.

I strongly suggest you review this situation again before you accuse me of metagaming. I have gone out of my way this entire game to not use out of character information or feelings to influence my in-game moves.

I strongly suggest you shove your suggestions and objections up your ass, twist, and bend them sideways. This bullshit sickens me and you're just one of the retards making excuses for one of the most implausible moves since the Overseer's declaration everyone was out to kill it. The only difference is, the Overseer is insane and supposed to be completely immune to reason.

[Hotfoot]

I'm not in favor of retconning this away, certainly not because it doesn't have the impact people want.

Either you can accept that a decent effort was put into it, as was intended, or you can keep harping that it's not enough time, despite the fact that it was over a week, just to review evidence that had already been submitted.

This isn't a case where the scattergun approach would work. You'd have to give some hard evidence that the Lying Darkness or whoever was actually involved. Because right now the only actual evidence out of this points to the White Sun. "It inconclusive. Here's our theory" isn't going to stop this.

Look, the entire (THE ENTIRE) Ouster case hinges on that recording with the Sixtra being authentic. Throw doubt on that, you throw doubt on the entire case. The Vampires dismissed the hypothetical we created, but they never dismissed the possibility of shapeshifters overall. They brushed past the icing and claimed there was no cake.

Including yours if I'm not mistaken?

Yup, that's right. Believe me, I took that into consideration before I even suggested the move to Marcao. I know full well the potential consequences involved, and frankly I've been planning for them for quite some time.

[Pablo Sanchez]

Look, the entire (THE ENTIRE) Ouster case hinges on that recording with the Sixtra being authentic. Throw doubt on that, you throw doubt on the entire case. The Vampires dismissed the hypothetical we created, but they never dismissed the possibility of shapeshifters overall. They brushed past the icing and claimed there was no cake.

You're right, it was pure sophistry and I basically just made shit up. The Veithan report was diluted sophistry and had some circumstantial evidence. Neither of them would stand up at all in court. The key thing was that I said what the Unification/Ousters wanted to hear and you said what they didn't want to hear. They jumped on what I said because it supported their position--this happens every day in the real world with governments making real decisions, and the only way your theory would have won out is if you had hard backing to it, like a captured Lying Darkness agent who would confess unequivocally to the crime.

[Hotfoot]

'I DON'T THINK WE SHOULD ALLOW VISUAL IDENTIFICATION WAH'. No evidence was presented, skippy. By your asstastic theory, we should discard visual identification of a subject because plastic surgery exists.

I suggest that you calm down and start discussing things rationally. Screaming isn't going to solve anything at this point.

Look, let's cut past the nonsense and get to the heart of the matter. It's not that we're saying visual identification is worthless, but that without independent corroboration, in a reality where shapeshifters exist, it's nowhere near as solid as it may be in our world. It's a matter of reality of the STGOD. Period. The fact that the Hajr never seriously considered that possibility in their investigation means that there are some nasty flaws in their evidence.

This investigation was the Accord reviewing Ouster Evidence against the Hajr, as well as some scanning which amounted to basically nothing. We reviewed the evidence, and pointed out a flaw. To better show why we feel it is a flaw, we included a second, and equally likely, scenario, using the same evidence but with different perpetrators.

Please don't put words in our mouths. We said, quite simply, that we could not be sure it was the White Suns given the information on hand, not that the White Suns were not responsible beyond a shadow of a doubt.

[Rogue 9]

'We know the Ousters are evil, by, um... Magic! Yea. That's why my entire government thinks it's a massive conspiracy from the word go, despite the fact there is not one incident that suppotrs the Hajr would nuke itself. WHAT?! What do you mean the Ousters are acting evil and not doing what I say?! They can't be evil!'

Oh, please, do tell where the Veithans or the Consortium are acting as though we know the Ousters to be evil. I would really like to hear this.

That slam was against Nashtar/Rogue 9.[/quote]
Oh boo hoo. I've been suspicious of them ever since Hudson and Jormungandr. My nation's history and charter are predicated upon self-determination, something that such conquest flies in the face of, and here comes the Hajr, knocking over weaker worlds just because they can. What do you think I'm going to think of that?

[SirNitram]

'I DON'T THINK WE SHOULD ALLOW VISUAL IDENTIFICATION WAH'. No evidence was presented, skippy. By your asstastic theory, we should discard visual identification of a subject because plastic surgery exists.

I suggest that you calm down and start discussing things rationally. Screaming isn't going to solve anything at this point.

As much as you would like to paint me as a screaming idjit, I'm mocking you there. I am calm; I'm just disgusted by this bullshit.

Look, let's cut past the nonsense and get to the heart of the matter. It's not that we're saying visual identification is worthless, but that without independent corroboration, in a reality where shapeshifters exist, it's nowhere near as solid as it may be in our world. It's a matter of reality of the STGOD. Period. The fact that the Hajr never seriously considered that possibility in their investigation means that there are some nasty flaws in their evidence.

So you don't comprehend Parsimony at all. In fact you suggest it should be thrown out. Wonderful.

This investigation was the Accord reviewing Ouster Evidence against the Hajr, as well as some scanning which amounted to basically nothing. We reviewed the evidence, and pointed out a flaw. To better show why we feel it is a flaw, we included a second, and equally likely, scenario, using the same evidence but with different perpetrators.

And violated Parsimony. Whoops. We better ignore that, it calls into question the Accord's perfection!

Please don't put words in our mouths. We said, quite simply, that we could not be sure it was the White Suns given the information on hand, not that the White Suns were not responsible beyond a shadow of a doubt.

You contributed no evidence and engaged in sophistry, then acted surprised when this did nothing. 'Look, Iraq! Iraq did it!' ten days after 9/11 was about as legitimate.

[Thirdfain]

1. We added plenty of new evidence, all pertaining to the Lying Darkness. It is impossible for the Empire to produce more evidence about what was provided by the Hajr. We showed the Lying Darkness capabilities to shape change with video and testimonials from people that dealt first hand with their agents by the way. That is evidence. We dealt with the motive aspect, but pointing out that agents from the Lying Darkness had attacked the Ravenlock TRADE fair. What was hit in Hudson again? oh yeah, the TRADE hub. Coincidence? you be the judge. The Lying Darkness has far more motive than the White Sun, I said so in the post, I want to see your evidence for claiming that the White Sun who have done very little IC have the same level of motive, as the fucking Lying Darkness who DID pull shit IC. If your people don't want to accept the Veithan points, that is totally your call. But please, cease and desist with the bullshit. This is part of the reason why I am so goddamned pissed off as of late. My post was laughingly ignored, with only the smallest of openings. All of a sudden, the Veithan Empire is the village idiot.

You described the Lying Darkness, prooving the simple fact that they had the capability to do this. The Koreans had the capability to fund the WTC attack, but we STILL attacked Afghanistan.

The evidence you gave pertains to the investigation only in that it says that the Lying Darkness could have been the culprit as easily as it could have been the White Suns- and that was just shot down by additional evidence provided by the Vampires saying that your information on the Lying Darkness is incomplete (it is!) and that they have far more complete knowledge due to their arcane powers (Bullshit, but do you know that?)

[Pablo Sanchez]

Please don't put words in our mouths. We said, quite simply, that we could not be sure it was the White Suns given the information on hand, not that the White Suns were not responsible beyond a shadow of a doubt.

No, the Veithans stated unequivocally that they believed the Lying Darkness was responsible and they demanded that the powers of known space play nice and put on a show of unity.

[SirNitram]

Oh, please, do tell where the Veithans or the Consortium are acting as though we know the Ousters to be evil. I would really like to hear this.

That slam was against Nashtar/Rogue 9.

Oh boo hoo. I've been suspicious of them ever since Hudson and Jormungandr. My nation's history and charter are predicated upon self-determination, something that such conquest flies in the face of, and here comes the Hajr, knocking over weaker worlds just because they can. What do you think I'm going to think of that?

I dunno, I'd have to actually see you seperate IC and OOC to have something to base it on.

[Hotfoot]

You're right, it was pure sophistry and I basically just made shit up. The Veithan report was diluted sophistry and had some circumstantial evidence. Neither of them would stand up at all in court. The key thing was that I said what the Unification/Ousters wanted to hear and you said what they didn't want to hear. They jumped on what I said because it supported their position--this happens every day in the real world with governments making real decisions, and the only way your theory would have won out is if you had hard backing to it, like a captured Lying Darkness agent who would confess unequivocally to the crime.

Once again, the Darkness theory was not the major point of the investigation. It was merely icing on the cake. The cake was that the sole piece of evidence against the White Suns was called into doubt to the point where nobody could really be sure if they were responsible or not. Not that the White Sun was innocent, not that the Lying Darkness was guilty, but that there was no clear indication of who was at fault, given the evidence provided, and that the Hajr could easily be focusing on the wrong target.

So long as that's clear, I'm fine.

[Pablo Sanchez]

and that was just shot down by additional evidence provided by the Vampires saying that your information on the Lying Darkness is incomplete (it is!) and that they have far more complete knowledge due to their arcane powers (Bullshit, but do you know that?)

I am such a fucking asshole.

[Pablo Sanchez]

The cake was that the sole piece of evidence against the White Suns was called into doubt to the point where nobody could really be sure if they were responsible or not. Not that the White Sun was innocent, not that the Lying Darkness was guilty, but that there was no clear indication of who was at fault, given the evidence provided, and that the Hajr could easily be focusing on the wrong target.

Let's have some fun with verbatim quoting from the post in question

It is our responsibility to show the Lying Darkness that we as a whole will not be manipulated in such a manner. To this end, the Veithan Empire with the assistance of the Ravenlock Consortium will make all the data we possess about the Lying Darkness available to the Hajr. It was the Ravenlock that possessed the knowledge and capability to track down, the general area where the Lying Darkness home systems seems to be located. We offer this information to the Hajr in order that their blood debt to their people is paid in full. The Hajr pointed out the history of the White Sun Confederacy, and we believe that this was part of the reason why they were the chosen nation to be sacrificed by the Lying Darkness.

He seems rather sure of his interpretation, doesn't he?

[Pablo Sanchez]

I dunno, I'd have to actually see you seperate IC and OOC to have something to base it on.

*sigh*
I want everyone to calm down, please.

[Beowulf]

And people complain about me being too suspicious of metagaming...

[Hotfoot]

As much as you would like to paint me as a screaming idjit, I'm mocking you there. I am calm; I'm just disgusted by this bullshit.

No, I would not like to paint you as a screaming idiot, I'm just stating that insults are not going to help matters any further. If you'd like to continue, that's your right, but I'm not trying to be obstinant and stupid here.

Look, let's cut past the nonsense and get to the heart of the matter. It's not that we're saying visual identification is worthless, but that without independent corroboration, in a reality where shapeshifters exist, it's nowhere near as solid as it may be in our world. It's a matter of reality of the STGOD. Period. The fact that the Hajr never seriously considered that possibility in their investigation means that there are some nasty flaws in their evidence.

So you don't comprehend Parsimony at all. In fact you suggest it should be thrown out. Wonderful.

Please show where and how I have suggested what you claim.

And violated Parsimony. Whoops. We better ignore that, it calls into question the Accord's perfection!

Once again, please tell me how I have violated Parsimony, instead of merely saying that I have.

You contributed no evidence and engaged in sophistry, then acted surprised when this did nothing. 'Look, Iraq! Iraq did it!' ten days after 9/11 was about as legitimate.

Please, explain how we are supposed to provide evidence when our job was....reviewing evidence? Is some sort of evidence of evidence fairy supposed to come down from the sky?

[Thirdfain]

Yah, let's keep this civil. We can disagree without being disagreeable.

[SirNitram]

As much as you would like to paint me as a screaming idjit, I'm mocking you there. I am calm; I'm just disgusted by this bullshit.

No, I would not like to paint you as a screaming idiot, I'm just stating that insults are not going to help matters any further. If you'd like to continue, that's your right, but I'm not trying to be obstinant and stupid here.

You're getting there pretty quick, intentions or no.

Look, let's cut past the nonsense and get to the heart of the matter. It's not that we're saying visual identification is worthless, but that without independent corroboration, in a reality where shapeshifters exist, it's nowhere near as solid as it may be in our world. It's a matter of reality of the STGOD. Period. The fact that the Hajr never seriously considered that possibility in their investigation means that there are some nasty flaws in their evidence.

So you don't comprehend Parsimony at all. In fact you suggest it should be thrown out. Wonderful.

Please show where and how I have suggested what you claim.

'It could be the Lying Darkness'(And more to the point, the ACTUAL post, which said it had to be the LD). Additional unproven unknowns. Parsimony requires we accept the one with the least of those: That the White Suns did it.

And violated Parsimony. Whoops. We better ignore that, it calls into question the Accord's perfection!

Once again, please tell me how I have violated Parsimony, instead of merely saying that I have.

Above. A conspiracy always fails Parsimony without alot of evidence.

You contributed no evidence and engaged in sophistry, then acted surprised when this did nothing. 'Look, Iraq! Iraq did it!' ten days after 9/11 was about as legitimate.

Please, explain how we are supposed to provide evidence when our job was....reviewing evidence? Is some sort of evidence of evidence fairy supposed to come down from the sky?

When the Veithan's demanded it must be the LD, they should have provided evidence instead of insisting it's so because they feel it should be.

[Hotfoot]

Let's have some fun with verbatim quoting from the post in question
<snip>

He seems rather sure of his interpretation, doesn't he?

Perhaps, but it's still icing. The core of the matter remains, we opened the door to throw the key piece of Ouster evidence into suspicion.