Clinton healthcare vs. Canadian system

N&P: Discuss governments, nations, politics and recent related news here.

Moderators: Alyrium Denryle, Edi, K. A. Pital

Post Reply
User avatar
Stravo
Official SD.Net Teller of Tales
Posts: 12806
Joined: 2002-07-08 12:06pm
Location: NYC

Clinton healthcare vs. Canadian system

Post by Stravo »

CLINTONCARE VS. CLINTON'S CARE

By MICHAEL F. CANNON


September 8, 2004 --

THE speed with which Presi dent Clinton received quad ruple bypass surgery pro vides an important lesson in health-care reform that voters should keep in mind this election season.

Last Thursday, the former president went to Northern Westchester Hospital, near his home in Chappaqua, complaining of chest pain and shortness of breath. As The New York Times reported, "Initial tests showed nothing extraordinary," but doctors asked the former president to return the next morning.

Friday morning, cardiologists performed an angiogram. One reported seeing "multi-vessel coronary artery disease, normal heart function and no heart attack." However, the extent of the blockage in his coronary arteries was severe enough that doctors sent him to Columbia-Presbyterian Hospital in Manhattan.

Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton said that when doctors at Columbia-Presbyterian saw the extent of the blockage, "They did advise him to have bypass surgery, and to do it as soon as he could." Columbia-Presbyterian admitted the former president Friday and performed a successful quadruple bypass Monday.

The timeframe is important.


President and Sen. Clinton's greatest health-care legacy is their attempt to pass the Health Security Act in 1994. At the time, it was said that 39 million Americans lacked health insurance. The president made "health coverage that cannot be taken away" his administration's top priority, and sought to do so by turning America's health-care system over to the federal government.

Under the Health Security Act, Washington would have compelled all Americans to buy health coverage, dictated what type of coverage they would receive and where they would purchase it, set prices for coverage and medical services and encouraged states to form their own single-payer health-care systems.

The power of individuals to make countless choices about their health care would have been handed over to government, and the few remaining market mechanisms that contain costs and promote quality would have been lost.

The Economist wrote of the Clinton plan, "Not since Franklin Roosevelt's War Production Board has it been suggested that so large a part of the American economy should suddenly be brought under government control."

Critics warned that socialized medicine would have the same effect in America as it has in other countries.

When government makes medical care "free," people demand medical care without regard to cost. Governments can't keep up with the excess demand and therefore must find some way of allocating care amid shortage conditions. Most choose to make patients wait.

According to Nadeem Esmail and Michael Walker of Canada's Fraser Institute, the median wait for an appointment with a cardiologist in Canada's single-payer health-care system was 3.4 weeks in 2003. The wait for urgent bypass surgery was another 2.1 weeks on top of that, while the wait for elective bypass surgery was a further 10.7 weeks. Great Britain and New Zealand have even longer waiting times for bypass surgery.

Esmail and Walker cite studies confirming that longer waits for heart surgery bring higher risks of heart attack and death. In fact, they report that U.S. hospitals act as a "safety valve" for Canadian patients who face life-threatening shortages: "The government of British Columbia contracted Washington state hospitals to perform some 200 operations in 1989 following public dismay over the 6-month waiting list for cardiac bypass surgery in the province . . . A California heart-surgery center has even advertised its services in a Vancouver newspaper."

Had America had followed his lead 10 years ago, President Clinton might not have been able to get his diagnosis and surgery appointment so quickly. Instead of waiting overnight for an appointment with a cardiologist, he might have had to wait the 3.4 weeks Canadians do. Instead of waiting three days for quadruple bypass surgery, he might have had to wait more than two weeks.

Instead of receiving care from what Sen. Clinton called "one of the great hospitals in the world," President Clinton might be looking for a safety valve.

Since the Clinton health plan was defeated, untold patients have been aided because America's health-care system, whatever its faults, was not subjected to the shortages and waiting lines that plague other nations.

But the future is less certain. Sen. John F. Kerry is aggressively promoting his $1 trillion health-care plan, which borrows heavily from the Clinton plan. Kerry too seems to believe that having government issue a paper guarantee of "coverage" is the same thing as having access to medical care.

Truth be told, presidents and senators will never have a hard time getting medical treatment. Esmail and Walker report "a profusion of recent research reveals that cardiovascular surgery queues are routinely jumped by the famous and politically-connected." It's the rest who have to wait.

Despite the government's egalitarian rhetoric, "low-income Canadians have less access to specialists, particularly cardiovascular ones, and have lower cardiovascular and cancer survival rates than their higher-income neighbors."

I join all Americans of good will in wishing President Clinton a speedy recovery. And I hope they will join me in wishing Sen. Kerry's health plan a quick, painless death.

Michael F. Cannon is director of health policy studies at the Cato Institute.
I'm not a Canadian and am generally ignorant on precisely how the system works but aware of the general lies that come from the "We don;t need reform crowd" so I don;t take what they say at face value. Its not visible online but in the paper there is a chart that shows he total time it took Clinton from diagnosis to get his procedure (3 days) and the time it would take your average Canadian for the same procedure with the same diagnosis (30 days)

My first impression is: real cute, use Clinton as the "Average American" compared to an average Canadian.

What about the millions of Americans that don't have insurance at all and couldn't afford what Clinton got, let alone go see a Cardiologist in the first place? Even if these numbers are true universal health coverage would still allow EVERYONE to get the treatement as opposed to millions who would just have to suck it up.
Wherever you go, there you are.

Ripped Shirt Monkey - BOTMWriter's Guild Cybertron's Finest Justice League
This updated sig brought to you by JME2
Image
User avatar
Montcalm
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7879
Joined: 2003-01-15 10:50am
Location: Montreal Canada North America

Post by Montcalm »

Canada or US the health care is the same,the more important you are,the faster they treat you.
Image
Jerry Orbach 1935 2004
Admiral Valdemar~You know you've fucked up when Wacky Races has more realistic looking vehicles than your own.
User avatar
Solauren
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 10338
Joined: 2003-05-11 09:41pm

Post by Solauren »

Also, in Canada, the small stuff can take time, I admit that.

However, if you need bypass surgery ASAP, you get it ASAP
I've been asked why I still follow a few of the people I know on Facebook with 'interesting political habits and view points'.

It's so when they comment on or approve of something, I know what pages to block/what not to vote for.
User avatar
Illuminatus Primus
All Seeing Eye
Posts: 15774
Joined: 2002-10-12 02:52pm
Location: Gainesville, Florida, USA
Contact:

Post by Illuminatus Primus »

:roll:

Give me a fucking break; my dad's a doctor and does two hearts a day on average.

You get a fucking angioplasty and your arteries are all fucked up you're scheduled in the OR within 10 days.
"You know what the problem with Hollywood is. They make shit. Unbelievable. Unremarkable. Shit." - Gabriel Shear, Swordfish

"This statement, in its utterly clueless hubristic stupidity, cannot be improved upon. I merely quote it in admiration of its perfection." - Garibaldi in reply to an incredibly stupid post.

The Fifth Illuminatus Primus | Warsie | Skeptical Empiricist | Florida Gator | Sustainability Advocate | Libertarian Socialist |
Image
User avatar
Darth Wong
Sith Lord
Sith Lord
Posts: 70028
Joined: 2002-07-03 12:25am
Location: Toronto, Canada
Contact:

Post by Darth Wong »

Let the author of the article prove that an American working for minimum-wage can get a free appointment with a cardiologist in 24 hours and he might have a point.
Image
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing

"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness

"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
User avatar
Stuart Mackey
Drunken Kiwi Editor of the ASVS Press
Posts: 5946
Joined: 2002-07-04 12:28am
Location: New Zealand
Contact:

Post by Stuart Mackey »

This author is telling porkies. In NZ, which he refers to, Clintons symptoms would get a patient in for surgery in a similar amount of time in a public hospital. It would be the same in our private hospitals.
Via money Europe could become political in five years" "... the current communities should be completed by a Finance Common Market which would lead us to European economic unity. Only then would ... the mutual commitments make it fairly easy to produce the political union which is the goal"

Jean Omer Marie Gabriel Monnet
--------------
User avatar
Darth Wong
Sith Lord
Sith Lord
Posts: 70028
Joined: 2002-07-03 12:25am
Location: Toronto, Canada
Contact:

Post by Darth Wong »

It helps to undertand how medians are calculated. If someone is deemed to have a non-life-threatening condition upon initial assessment, corrective procedures and tests will be pushed to the back of the line. People with short-term life-threatening conditions always get bumped to the front of the line.

Ergo, the result is that people with non-life-threatening conditions can have wait times which are quite long. Now, remember that a median is calculated not by computing an average, but by simply cutting the population in half and taking the middle number. Since the number of people with non-life-threatening conditions outnumbers the number of people with life-threatening emergency conditions, a median figure (a method which I suspect was chosen in order to deliberately exaggerate the problem) will inevitably give you the wait time for a patient with a non-life-threatening condition, hence it is unrepresentative of the wait times for patients with life-threatening conditions.

But of course, that is much too complex for the "big government = baaaaaad" crowd to understand.
Image
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing

"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness

"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
User avatar
Stuart Mackey
Drunken Kiwi Editor of the ASVS Press
Posts: 5946
Joined: 2002-07-04 12:28am
Location: New Zealand
Contact:

Post by Stuart Mackey »

Darth Wong wrote:snip

But of course, that is much too complex for the "big government = baaaaaad" crowd to understand.
Indeed. It comes back to that old saying lies, lies and damned statistics.
I will not deny that NZ has waiting lists for a lot of things, but then how many people in the US cannot affored things at all because they simply cannot afford it? Without having seen the stats, I will hazard a guess and suggest that things balance out, albeit with state sytems at least getting things done eventually without forcing people to see the house.
Via money Europe could become political in five years" "... the current communities should be completed by a Finance Common Market which would lead us to European economic unity. Only then would ... the mutual commitments make it fairly easy to produce the political union which is the goal"

Jean Omer Marie Gabriel Monnet
--------------
User avatar
Predator
Padawan Learner
Posts: 359
Joined: 2004-05-14 09:49pm
Location: Wellington, New Zealand
Contact:

Some real figures

Post by Predator »

I love the bit about "market mechanisms that contain costs and promote quality". Lets take a look at that, shall we?

Healthcare Figures for multiple western countries
Healthcare Comparisons - The USA

Amount spent on health per person: US$3,950
Total health expenditure as a % of GDP: 13.0
Public expenditure on health as % of GDP: 5.8
Private expenditure on health as % of GDP: 7.2
Public: Private ratio: 45:55
Hospital beds per 1,000 population: 3.7
Practising physicians per 1,000 population: 2.7
Practising nurses per 1,000 population: 8.3
Life expectancy at birth in years: 73.04(M) 79.75(F)
Infant mortality (per 1,000 live births): 6.67
Healthcare Comparisons - France

Amount spent on health per person: US$2,102
Total health expenditure as a % of GDP: 9.4
Public expenditure on health as % of GDP: 7.3
Private expenditure on health as % of GDP: 2.1
Public: Private ratio: 77:23
Hospital beds per 1,000 population: 8.1
Practising physicians per 1,000 population: 3.3
Practising nurses per 1,000 population: 4.97
Life expectancy at birth in years: 75.02(M) 82.72(F)
Infant mortality (per 1,000 live births): 4.58
Comparing healthcare - The Netherlands

Amount spent on health per person: US$2,070
Total health expenditure as a % of GDP: 8.5
Public expenditure on health as % of GDP: 6.0
Private expenditure on health as % of GDP: 2.5
Public: Private ratio: 70:30
Hospital beds per 1,000 population: 11.3
Practising physicians per 1,000 population: 2.6
Practising nurses per 1,000 population: N/A
Life expectancy at birth in years: 75.43(M) 80.61(F)
Infant mortality (per 1,000 live births): 5.23
Healthcare Comparisons - Australia

Amount spent on health per person: US$1,980
Total health expenditure as a % of GDP: 8.5
Public expenditure on health as % of GDP: 5.9
Private expenditure on health as % of GDP: 2.6
Public: Private ratio: 69:31
Hospital beds per 1,000 population: 8.5
Practising physicians per 1,000 population: 2.5
Practising nurses per 1,000 population: 7.8
Life expectancy at birth in years: 77.49(M) 83.48(F)
Infant mortality (per 1,000 live births): 4.97
Those are just a few. Doesnt list Canada, however we can find some figures for Canada:

Canadian vs US healthcare
In 2003 the U.S. will spend $399.4 billion ($1,389 per capita) on health bureaucracy, out of total expenditures of $1660.5 billion ($5,775 per capita). The states could save $286.0 billion dollars in 2003 if they streamlined administration to Canadian levels by adopting a single-payer national health insurance system. The potential savings are equivalent to at least $6,940 for each of the 41.6 million Americans uninsured in 2001."
Ah. There's a nice table here. I wont try copying and formatting that... but Canada's figures are:

Canada
Life expectancy: 79.3
Infant Mortality: 5.6
Per capita expenditure on health (USD): 2,163
Healthcare costs as a percent of GDP: 9.5
% of government revenue spent on health: 16.2
% of health costs paid by govenrnemt: 70.8
% of health costs paid by private sector: 29.2

Further comparisons here.
"Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger." Herman Goering at the Nuremberg trials
User avatar
Stofsk
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 12925
Joined: 2003-11-10 12:36am

Post by Stofsk »

Stuart Mackey wrote:Indeed. It comes back to that old saying lies, lies and damned statistics.
Actually it's "there are lies, DAMNED lies, and THEN there are STATISTICS..." ;) :P
Image
User avatar
J
Kaye Elle Emenopey
Posts: 5835
Joined: 2002-12-14 02:23pm

Post by J »

The entire article's been discredited quite nicely by others, and I leave it with one final thought. If an ex-president or prime minister of any first world country required specialized medical care of some sort, one can be assured that it would be taken care of in hours to days at most at the best available hospital in the country.
This post is a 100% natural organic product.
The slight variations in spelling and grammar enhance its individual character and beauty and in no way are to be considered flaws or defects


I'm not sure why people choose 'To Love is to Bury' as their wedding song...It's about a murder-suicide
- Margo Timmins


When it becomes serious, you have to lie
- Jean-Claude Juncker
User avatar
SpacedTeddyBear
Jedi Master
Posts: 1093
Joined: 2002-08-20 11:54pm
Location: San Jose, Ca

Post by SpacedTeddyBear »

From past experience, when I usually see my cardiologist, I usually have a month wait from when I call until my appointment time. If it's important, the wait is about two weeks.

When my heart condition had been diagnosed, I could have had the procedure to fix it done within 2 weeks after the diagnosis was given. What I had could have killed me at any given time ( I had an anerysim the size of a small lemon among some other things). I chose to wait another 8 months before having surgury. I had school to deal with ( was diagnosed in early/mid November), so I couldn't of had it done then. Winterbreak was considered but I decided against it because recovery time varies, and I didn't want have the possibility of having to deal with recovery when school starts back up. Plus wanting to push my luck ( and heart) even further, I wanted to go ski. My surgery was done at Stanford Hospital.

At the time, I was in great shape ( still am :wink: ), I was assymtomatic for the most part. Despite the heart condition, I was in perfect health. When i did the stress test, I outran/beat the programme they had set up on the treadmill.

BTW, as much as Hillary would like other's to believe that Bill was in high spirits after his surgury, it all due to the morphine, oxygen and other drugs that they're pumping into his blood. I have no doubts that as soon as he was taken off the morphine and the oxygen, he absolutely hated life for the next 24 hours.
User avatar
His Divine Shadow
Commence Primary Ignition
Posts: 12791
Joined: 2002-07-03 07:22am
Location: Finland, west coast

Re: Some real figures

Post by His Divine Shadow »

Predator wrote:I love the bit about "market mechanisms that contain costs and promote quality". Lets take a look at that, shall we?
Hmm, Australia's system seems to be best, they have some of the longer lifespans too.
Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who did not.
User avatar
Darth Wong
Sith Lord
Sith Lord
Posts: 70028
Joined: 2002-07-03 12:25am
Location: Toronto, Canada
Contact:

Post by Darth Wong »

The American health-care system: great for multi-millionaire ex-Presidents, shitty for you!
Image
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing

"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness

"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
Post Reply