Number of Capital Ships in the Empire

[President Sharky]

Fleets like Black Sword Command, Azure Hammer Command, and Azure Shield Command are probably elements of the Core Worlds/Colonies fleets to which the remaining ISDs and really heavy Star Battleships and Dreadnoughts are assigned to. The two first groups both have at least one Executor-class Star Dreadnought, and Azure Hammer and Shield commands probably have other ships larger than the ISD (IIRC, Coruscant and the Core Worlds never specified exactly how many of Azure Hammer's ships were ISDs).

[Illuminatus Primus]

BLACKSWORDCOM comprehended no less than three Star Dreadnoughts. The files detail three "Super-class" vessels, in reference to three Executor-class Star Dreadnoughts, including HIMS Intimidator. Additionally the EX-F is deemed a "dreadnaught" and obviously must greatly outmass an Imperial-class Star Destroyer.

BLACKSWORDCOM is probably a regional or Oversectorial command which operates in the defense of the Core Worlds and other inward regions of the Galactic Empire (the missing vessels alone are on the order of two seperate Sector Groups' size according to Cracken's Fleet Dossier). The exact sectors under its protective umbrella are listed by Admrial Drayson in the BFC but escape my memory at the moment.

As listed by President Sharky, with other commands such as AZUREHAMMERCOM (which contains at least one Executor-class Star Dreadnought as the flagship) and AZURESHIELDCOM, such fleets are hardly rare or out of place in the inner regions of the galaxy.

This is hardly surprising. Kuat deployed fleets with vessels on the order of the scale of the Imperial Starfleet in defense not only of her home sector but also subsidiary's yards and territories (AOTC ICS explains that Rothana's high security is in-part thanks to a large, permanently stationed flotilla in orbit, courtesy of KDY). Nemodia and the Trade Federation fielded on the order of tens of thousands of refitted freighters as a political ploy and AOTC ICS reveals that it was a simple matter to complement and replace many of these vessels with dedicated warships. CEC is known to maintain significant military forces (in the paramilitary CorSec), as is TaggeCo.

Keep in mind, the average Core World sector may contain the resources, capital, and population of a 100 Outer Rim sectors, easily.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Of course, its not like the Black Sword Command neccesarily included just the forty four capital ships missing...it could conceivably been larger.

It was. The "Black Fleet" was defined as the vessels missing from BLACKSWORDCOM; it should implicitly be larger. I doubt that the entire Command was indefinitely moored at Koornacht all together anyhow. And we know two Executor-class Star Dreadnoughts missing from the Black Fleet.

IIRC the ISB mentions "special" fores sometimes attached to Regions or other specific areas (Oversectors I think they're called..)

Individual sectors can be augmented with additional squadrons (up to 15, I believe) at the discresion of the High Command. Oversectors are just huge areas of special importance comprehending many, many sectors. The "Oversector Outer" administrated by Grand Moff Tarkin included nearly all of the Outer Rim Territories.

[Illuminatus Primus]

IIRC it was said there was a minimum of 2,400 lesser ships per ISD in a sector fleet. 24 ISDs in a sector fleet gives us 57600 ships. IIRC there are 1,000 sectors.

Wrong-o. The Galactic Republic had 1,026 Senators (included regional or non-sectorial senators like the TradeFed Senator, and thus the 1,026 number is a lower limit only). Keep in mind it did not control regions including Tattooine.

The Imperial Sourcebook claims there are several regions containing "thousands" of Sectors.

Minimum that is 4,000 Sectors.

4,000 Sectors x the minimum sum of Star Destroyers in a Sector Group (24) = 96,000 ISDs.

Pelleaon's remark can probably be looked at as something like "we had 25,000 ISDs to spare back then, and 200 all-together now."

The 25,000 must refer to roaming commands and forces which are not strictly tied down under the Sector Group-organization.

EDIT: Publius suggested that a possible rationalization of Pelleaon's comment was an assymetrical comparison between the Empire at its height and its current incarnation.

[Alyeska]

IIRC it was said there was a minimum of 2,400 lesser ships per ISD in a sector fleet. 24 ISDs in a sector fleet gives us 57600 ships. IIRC there are 1,000 sectors.

Wrong-o. The Galactic Republic had 1,026 Senators (included regional or non-sectorial senators like the TradeFed Senator, and thus the 1,026 number is a lower limit only). Keep in mind it did not control regions including Tattooine.

The Imperial Sourcebook claims there are several regions containing "thousands" of Sectors.

Minimum that is 4,000 Sectors.

4,000 Sectors x the minimum sum of Star Destroyers in a Sector Group (24) = 96,000 ISDs.

Pelleaon's remark can probably be looked at as something like "we had 25,000 ISDs to spare back then, and 200 all-together now."

The 25,000 must refer to roaming commands and forces which are not strictly tied down under the Sector Group-organization.

Palleaon's remak is very clear. He was talking about the number of ISDs the Empire had at its height. Its quite possible the Empire changed the definition of sector since the Old Republic. Its even possible the Empire quite simplly didn't claim direct control over the same lands the Old Republic claimed.

25,000 ISDs is the number we are given. We can't deviate from that. Palleaon wasn't the first to list 25,000 ISDs. The SWE also stated 25,000 ISDs. This is an established number.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Its also wrong; THE ISB STATES THE EMPIRE HAS > 4,000 SECTORS.

THE ISB STATES THE MINIMUM SECTOR GROUP COMPLEMENT IS 24 ISDs.

The Imperial Sourcebook is not talking about Republic sectors, shitwit. Read what I wrote.

The Republic does not even have few enough Sectors canonically without the canonical expansionism of the Empire.

Under the weight of circumstancial evidence (industrial capacity, comparison to real-world navies, etc.) and the original-source official evidence (the ISB), and lastly, the canonical evidence from TPM and comparisons to ANH, and the Dodonna estimate (Ender worked this out), I am willing to toss out some crap out of a known minimalist like Zahn (who in the very same series believed that the Republic/Empire comprehended only a quarter of the galactic disk) who has shown to be erroneous on matters of scale.

Furthermore, I can circumvent it by stating he was talking only about Imperial-class Star Destroyers, and not derivatives or other Destroyers (seen elsewhere). Or the "to spare" explanation espoused by Publius and The Duchess and others before. Both of which fit in with the larger picture of the Empire's scale, the original source material in the films and ISB, while if you rigidly hold to the 25k figure for all destroyers, you are implicitly stating that part of the ISB is either completely wrong or you'll "reinterpret" it into saying something which is so radically opposite what it originally said that the end result is the same, not to mention "creatively treating" canonical material on the Sector representation and the Dodonna calculation.

In that contest, I win. Sorry.

EDIT: Changed to give due credit to the originators of the Pelleaon quote fix.

[Alyeska]

You quite done having a temper tantrum? I was merely pointing out one aspect of it. So we've established that there is now a contradiction. We look at the available evidence and decide which one is more prevalent and that best describes how many ISDs and sectors there are.

I've got nothing vested in this debate so I don't have any problem changing my position. You don't have any reason to flame me on the issue. I will happily look at the information you have. If we can come to an agreement as to what the likely final outcome is, all the better.

[Illuminatus Primus]

The only reason I flamed you was on the "maybe they redefined Sectors" stuff.

Since the source on all the Sector Group and Sector count stuff was from the Imperial Sourcebook, that was, sorry to say, stupid.

[nasor]

It seems like the rebel threat would be almost zero if the empire had something like 25,000 star destroyers. Wasn’t the rebel fleet at the battle of Endor (which was presumably most of the rebel ships) supposed to consist of ‘dozens’ of cruisers? That would make them utterly insignificant. I suppose the empire would still try to hunt them down on general principle, but it seems like taking out the rebels would be more of an afterthought for them.

[Illuminatus Primus]

It was unimportant; the entire point of the Battle of Endor was to turn Luke Skywalker to the Dark Side, permanently extinguishing the last hope for the galaxy and replacing Lord Vader.

The Essential Guide to Characters itself described the Rebellion as of "no concern" to Palpatine.

[Galvatron]

If anything, the rebellion only played into the Emperor's hands. He'd have his own neverending "War on Terror" to justify his massive war machine and harsh policies.

[PainRack]

Additionally the EX-F is deemed a "dreadnaught" and obviously must greatly outmass an Imperial-class Star Destroyer.

Secondary EU sources list the EX-F as a standard Dreadnaught class vessel, with experimental anti-matter engines. 16,000 crew, la few turbolasers, assigned to work with TIEs to provide capital ship support.

BLACKSWORDCOM is probably a regional or Oversectorial command which operates in the defense of the Core Worlds and other inward regions of the Galactic Empire.

The novel itself states the responsibilities of the command, to defend Core and presumably, Deep Core worlds.

[Rogue 9]

Additionally the EX-F is deemed a "dreadnaught" and obviously must greatly outmass an Imperial-class Star Destroyer.

I was left with the distinct impression that the EX-F was a testbed on a Katana class Dreadnought's frame.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Ok, guys, math time.

The explosion of the Pride of the Yevetha (the EX-F renamed) at the battle of Gravlex Med cooked off with enough power to destroy six flanking Imperial-class Star Destroyers.

It is estimated that on the order of several tens to hundreds of millions of tons of antimatter would needed to blow up with sufficient force to completely annhiliate six nearby ISDs. Quite possibly in excess to an ISD's mass in antimatter. It stands to reason that such a quantity could not be contained by Dreadnaught-class CH.

Moreover, the text of BFC refers to the vessels in orbit around N'zoth at Black FIFTEEN as "nine Star Destroyers" all together. Imperial ships-of-the-line are frequently colloquially termed "Star Destroyers" irrespective of more precise role descriptions such as Star Dreadnought (in the case of the Executor). At the very least, a Dreadnaught-class CH is not a Star Destroyer, by either the role descriptor definition or the colloquial definition. Moreover, the "Black Fleet" is described as containing 44 ships, none smaller than a Victory-class Star Destroyer. A Victory-class Star Destroyer's length overall is 900 meters. A Dreadnaught-class "Heavy Cruiser" is 600 meters in length.

Therefore, the EX-F/Glory of Yevetha is in fact more likely a modified Star Dreadnought.

Thanks to Publius for providing many of the sources not currently available to me.

[PainRack]

Ok, guys, math time.

The explosion of the Pride of the Yevetha (the EX-F renamed) at the battle of Gravlex Med cooked off with enough power to destroy six flanking Imperial-class Star Destroyers.

Ignoring the possibility of battle damage, sheer lack of maintenance and resources available to the Yevethans. The Yevethans had less than 20 systems to call upon, to service the resource demands of ships that were stationed in entire regions.

Moreover, the text of BFC refers to the vessels in orbit around N'zoth at Black FIFTEEN as "nine Star Destroyers" all together.

Except that BFC referred to all enemy vessels as Star Destroyers or Thrustships only, despite the fact that other enemy vessels were present.

Moreover, the "Black Fleet" is described as containing 44 ships, none smaller than a Victory-class Star Destroyer. A Victory-class Star Destroyer's length overall is 900 meters. A Dreadnaught-class "Heavy Cruiser" is 600 meters in length.

Except that the Yevethans didn't only capture Star Destroyers. For example, the task force that loaded the ore of New Briggs had a imperial transport attached to it

Like it or not, you just don't have hard evidence enough to knock out the EU reference to the EX-F as a old Dreadnaught class vessel.

[FTeik]

1)The battle of Gravlex Med was between Imperial Forces and the New Republic.

You´r suggestion of battle-damage and bad maintainance would perhaps work for one or two destroyed ISDS, but six?

2)The Yevethans had access to imperial shipyards and imperial shipdesigns for twelve years. Enough time to build other ships aside from star destroyers to fill some gaps in their fleets (like the Interdictor-Cruiser, who intercepted Han Solo). They ships they got however were all star destroyers, including the EX-F.

[FTeik]

Could it be, that the empire favoured colours as names for its prestigious commands?

BlackSword, AzureHammer, CrimsomBlade ... (alright, alright the last one is a hint at Mike´s fanfiction).

What do we know about those fleets?

BlackSwordCommand contained at least 3 "SSDs", fourty ISDs and three mobile shipyards.

AzureHammer at least one SSD and 75 other capital ships.

Is there more?

[Illuminatus Primus]

Ignoring the possibility of battle damage, sheer lack of maintenance and resources available to the Yevethans. The Yevethans had less than 20 systems to call upon, to service the resource demands of ships that were stationed in entire regions.

Circumstancials do not violate physical necessity. You will need more antimatter than the mass of a Dreadnaught-class CH to destroy six nearby Imperial-class Star Destroyers.

The fact that you do not "feel" that they could have the resources, I remind you that they very much could keep the DLS Pride of Yevetha (formerly HIMS Intimidator) battle-ready, and the amount of industrial capacity available to Prince-Admiral Krennel in that the construction of the Pulsar Station was not considered far-fetched by NRI.

The physical necessities are paramount.

Besides, we know they could maintain an Executor-class Star Dreadnaught. You need a better reason for why an additional Star Dreadnaught, especially one equipped with an apparently alternative, and possibly lower-technology drive/power system was so much more beyond their abilities.

Except that BFC referred to all enemy vessels as Star Destroyers or Thrustships only, despite the fact that other enemy vessels were present.

Really, like the fleet carriers and heavy cruisers and whatnot described in the opening battle? Nice try.

You still haven't addressed the physical necessity provided by the antimatter cooking off beyond "I don't think so." Well I don't think that cuts it.

Except that the Yevethans didn't only capture Star Destroyers. For example, the task force that loaded the ore of New Briggs had a imperial transport attached to it

Give me a break; we're both aware that the comparison discrepency between HIMS Grisnal's OoB and the NRI's assessment did not include the lowliest transports. The entire significance is the missing capital ships.

And how, exactly, can you demonstrate that the Imperial transport was, in fact, not 900 meters or more? You can't.

Thank you for playing.

Like it or not, you just don't have hard evidence enough to knock out the EU reference to the EX-F as a old Dreadnaught class vessel.

Really? Cite where it is called a "Dreadnaught-class vessel" and not simply "a dreadnought." Fact of the matter stands: the EX-F/Glory of Yevetha was containing at least an ISD's mass in antimatter, and was at least colloquially known as a "Star Destroyer" and larger than 900 meters. A Dreadnaught-class CH cannot meet these conditions.

[PainRack]

Circumstancials do not violate physical necessity. You will need more antimatter than the mass of a Dreadnaught-class CH to destroy six nearby Imperial-class Star Destroyers.

Except that there is no evidence for it not being a Dreadnaught class, other than circumstancial evidence.

The fact that you do not "feel" that they could have the resources, I remind you that they very much could keep the DLS Pride of Yevetha (formerly HIMS Intimidator) battle-ready, and the amount of industrial capacity available to Prince-Admiral Krennel in that the construction of the Pulsar Station was not considered far-fetched by NRI.

Except that it was noted the EX-F could not be made battle-ready, due to the complicated nature of her propulsion unit. Furthermore, it required a major rehabilitation effort by the Yevethan to refit the entire captured fleet, all this, without attracting attention from both Imperial and Republican intelligence.

Under the circumnstances, its more likely than not that corners were cut.

Besides, we know they could maintain an Executor-class Star Dreadnaught. You need a better reason for why an additional Star Dreadnaught, especially one equipped with an apparently alternative, and possibly lower-technology drive/power system was so much more beyond their abilities.

The Executor class Star Destroyer, failed to

You still haven't addressed the physical necessity provided by the antimatter cooking off beyond "I don't think so." Well I don't think that cuts it.

Really? Let's address this.

All EU sources refer to the EXF, as a old Dreadnaught class, as opposed to one equivalent in size to the Executor. Upon contact with Republic forces, the EXF, was not tagged a Super Class vessel, but was rapidly identified as having an experimental drive engine belonging to a Dreadnaught. Considering that the current fleet model for Star Dreadnaught is that any vessel larger than ISD are limited production class,how was it identified as a Dreadnaught, when in that same context, the Intimidator was identified as a Super Star Destroyer?

Really? Cite where it is called a "Dreadnaught-class vessel" and not simply "a dreadnought." Fact of the matter stands: the EX-F/Glory of Yevetha was containing at least an ISD's mass in antimatter, and was at least colloquially known as a "Star Destroyer" and larger than 900 meters. A Dreadnaught-class CH cannot meet these conditions.

Secondary RPG data, outside of the novel.

[Publius]

Regarding the identity of the EX-F (re-posted from 27 July 2003):

The EX-F first appeared in a shipway at Black FIFTEEN, over N'zoth, where she was described as "a weapons and propulsion test bed built on a Dreadnaught hull" (p. 7). However, this is neatly contradicted by the description of Black FIFTEEN on the immediately preceding page; there, the nine shipways are said to be occupied by "nine Star Destroyers". One page 487 (Shield of Lies), there is mention of "a queer-looking Dreadnaught-scale ship, which Nylykerka excitedly identified as a long-missing Imperial testbed, the EX-F". The Essential Chronology describes her merely as "the experimental weapons test bed EX-F" (p. 130).

So, we are immediately presented with a curious situation: Is she a Star Destroyer or a Dreadnaught? The weight of the evidence, the direct references from the Black Fleet Crisis, actually suggests that she is the latter, or at least a unique vessel based thereon (whether a Dreadnought in the sense of a battleship or a Dreadnaught-class heavy cruiser remains to be seen).

However, the Order of Battle recovered from the Number 4 memory core of the Star Destroyer Gnisnal revealed that, of the 44 ships of Mr Nylykerka's "Black Fleet", not one was smaller than a Victory Star Destroyer, whose length overall (LOA) is 900 metres -- and yet, a Dreadnaught CA has a LOA of only 600 metres! If she is indeed a variation on the hull of a Dreadnaught CA, her LOA may have been substantially increased by the experimental apparatus which rendered her unique, even to the point that she might be colloquially called a Star Destroyer.

Page 209 identifies the Yevethan warship Glory as "the vessel the Imperials had called EX-F, and its curious propulsion system, unlike that in any other starship, had been an ongoing vexation". The Star Wars Encyclopedia identifies the Glory of Yevetha with the EX-F (pp. 96, 116), and in both entries (viz., "EX-F" and "Glory of Yevetha"), she is described as "a weapons and propulsion test bed taken by the Yevetha at N'zoth" (pp. 96, 116).

Now, the New Essential Guide to Characters describes (p. 17) Admiral Ackbar's victory at the Battle of Anx Minor, wherein he "scored a last-minute victory by focusing a hail of concentrated fire on the engines of the Imperial vessel Glory of Yevetha. The ship exploded, igniting its volatile antimatter reservoir and annihilating six nearby Star Destroyers". Notice that she is described only as an "Imperial vessel", not as a Star Destroyer.

Now, it would appear, then, that the EX-F's experimental weapons and propulsion systems were responsible for an unusually large amount of antimatter being stowed aboard. If so, then it need not be assumed that an ordinary Dreadnaught or Star Destroyer would carry such a mass of antimatter. One wonders, though, why the Empire would be experimenting with antimatter in such a fashion.

This author is not aware of any reference to EX-F as a Dreadnaught-class heavy cruiser; she has been referred to as a Dreadnought, but also as being no smaller than a 900-meter-long ship, and carrying what Connor MacLeod has supposed must be tens to hundreds of millions of tons of antimatter (to say nothing of the probable reactant matter). Furthermore, as Dr. Saxton has introduced the term "Star Dreadnought" to refer to vessels of such a large scale as HIMS Executor, one is left with the very real possibility that EX-F may have been rather larger than previous estimates have considered.

It should be noted, PainRack, that one cannot simply dismiss references to EX-F's extremely large antimatter reservoir on the basis that it is "Secondary RPG data, outside of the novel", considering that the information is not derived from "secondary RPG" sources, and also that it is quite irrelevant whether or not this information was contained in the Black Fleet Crisis. If you wish to dismiss evidence, you must demonstrate the existence of a compelling reason to do so.

PUBLIUS

[Illuminatus Primus]

Circumstancials do not violate physical necessity. You will need more antimatter than the mass of a Dreadnaught-class CH to destroy six nearby Imperial-class Star Destroyers.

Except that there is no evidence for it not being a Dreadnaught class, other than circumstancial evidence.

And there is no evidence for it being a Dreadnaught-class CH. Your presumption that your position is the default assumption is arrogant, haughty, and beginning to piss me off incredibly.

You occupy the same burden of evidence I do, asshole. The EX-F must contain enough antimatter to annhiliate a sextet of ISDs. A Dreadnaught-class CH should not be able to do so, as much as you want to simply brush it off as "circumstancial." It is a physical necessity asshole. You need a good reason to suggest why the EX-F is a Dreadnaught CH, and you have not presented jack or shit, nor have you presented any substancial rebuttal of my conclusion that it is a "Star Dreadnaught."

Except that it was noted the EX-F could not be made battle-ready, due to the complicated nature of her propulsion unit. Furthermore, it required a major rehabilitation effort by the Yevethan to refit the entire captured fleet, all this, without attracting attention from both Imperial and Republican intelligence.

Under the circumnstances, its more likely than not that corners were cut.

So what? This changes the fact that the EX-F contained more than a Dreadnaught-class CH's mass in antimatter and was greater than 900 meters in length how, exactly?

The Executor class Star Destroyer

Is the same vessel as the Executor-class Star Dreadnaught, asshole. Don't grenade this topic.

, failed to

Fix this. Though I'm willing to bet it does not change the fact that the EX-F contained more than a Dreadnaught-class CH's mass in antimatter and was greater than 900 meters in length.

All EU sources refer to the EXF, as a old Dreadnaught class,

Really, I called you on citations, and you're wandering around like a bumbling drunk expecting me to take your ravings on authority. Fuck no. Formal citations or concede.

And deal with the fact the EX-F canonically contained more than a Dreadnaught-class CH's mass in antimatter and was greater than 900 meters in length.

Considering that the current fleet model for Star Dreadnaught is that any vessel larger than ISD are limited production class,how was it identified as a Dreadnaught, when in that same context, the Intimidator was identified as a Super Star Destroyer?

Don't know. Have a better explanation for why the EX-F canonically contained more than a Dreadnaught-class CH's mass in antimatter and was greater than 900 meters in length?

The position is simple: the EX-F physically cannot be a Dreadnaught-class CH as it is 300 or more meters longer and contains more than its whole mass in antimatter. The only remaining ships described as Dreadnaughts (and incidentally, also colloquially refered to as Star Destroyers, like the EX-F) are Star Dreadnoughts.

Therefore, the EX-F is a Star Dreadnought, not a Dreadnaught-class CH.

Secondary RPG data, outside of the novel.

In the latter climactic conflict [Battle of Anx Minor], Ackbar scored a last-minute victory by focusing a hail of concentrated fire on the engines of the Imperial vessel, Glory of Yevetha. The ship exploded, igniting its volatile antimatter reservoir and annhiliating six nearby Star Destroyers. In light of its latest defeat, the Empire was forced to sue for peace.

Blow me, asshole.

[Thanas]

Were any of the ships in BFC actually part of the Black Sword command?

I seem to remind an argument at theforce.net....

Both posts were written by ThrawnMcEwok

And hang on... only nine Star Destroyers? Has it occurred to anyone that we're actually missing Black Sword Command itself...


"... the order of battle for Black Sword includes forty-four capital ships which we have not seen nor heard of since the fall of the Emperor. None smaller than a Victory-class Star Destroyer. Three are Super-class vessels."


All that Nil Spaar actually got were the ships in drydock undergoing repairs or on the slipways building - including at least one dreadnaught hull and potentially an Immobilizer-class Interdictor (could the ones we saw have been Dominators?) - neither of which can have been part of Black Sword Command itself, since they're smaller than VSDs. The fighting force of Black Sword Command had already pulled out by the time of the 'months after Endor' preface at the start of Before the Storm... to somewhere that the New Republic never found them. IIRC, we were told as much in the novel - and Nil Spaar said something very similar to Leia... but because Sil Sorannan and his surviving tech-heads and maintenance crews pulled out all the ships they did have, including a lot of newly-built ISDs and VSDs, the New Republic never realised...

Yes... they're called Black Eight (Wakiza) and Black Eleven (Zhina) in Shield of Lies and then we get a reference to Black Nine in Tyrant's Test... do I remember something about it being a smaller shipyard? I certainly don't remember it having more than a handful of slipways...

[edit]: Black Nine has nine slipways, the same as N'zoth seems to... so I suspect it's meant to be one of the big three - though N'zoth also has the Big Tim for some reason... anyway, three nine-slipway shipyards would give no more than 27 ships... whoops!

So the point still stands. As you said itself, these ships were berthing and building. They weren't Black Sword Command. Some were new building, others were post-Endor repairs. They weren't - or at the very least, weren't all of - the 'forty-four ships' from the order of battle that the NR realised was missing. Those ships, or at least a sizeable chunk of them, simply disappeared in the chaos after Endor. A coulpe of dozen VSDs and ISDs and at least two of the three SSDs... because the Yevetha only ever had the Big Tim... and events conspired to prevent the New Republic realising even when they belatedly got hold of the intelligence...

taken from http://boards.theforce.net/Literature/b ... 1918689/p5


I believe, what he is saying is that BLackSwordCom was pulled out, and all the Yevethans got was the unfinished Intimidator, which was not a part of the BFC, and the ships undergoing repairs or were newly built.

Which makes some sense... How huge is the chance that insurgents manage to capture a battleready fleet of the empire?

They would have had to coordinate strikes against every ship in every system.

IMO, this is highly unlikely.

Comments? Or do you agree with his hypothesis?

[Illuminatus Primus]

Nearly invariably, anything McEwok (Arkady Hodge) posts is speculative conjectural bullshit.

Ignore him; he's an idiot. If you wish to PM me I'll dig up some thrashings I've given him so you can see him at his dumbest.

[Publius]

Thrawn McEwok's propensity for wishful thinking and outright disregard for evidence – a fact he has openly and explicitly acknowledged – makes him an unreliable source at best, a useless one at worst. He advocates a thoroughly idiosyncratic and subjective standard of interpretation, and habitually confuses his own prejudices and desires with evidence. He has attempted to dismiss evidence on the grounds that, quote, "I still have a big problem with the idea." His demonstrated ability to derive grandiose theories and explanations from something so vague as a two-word phrase is on par with the most fabulous rabbinical storytelling one can possibly find in the Talmud.

In this particular case, the awesome powers of analysis possessed by this scholar and gentleman are superbly demonstrated by his claim that an Interdictor heavy cruiser could not possibly have been assigned to BLACKSWORDCOM on the grounds that it was smaller than a Victory Star Destroyer. Unfortunately for him, he provided the evidence demonstrating the stupidity of this claim in the previous sentence; it is the "Black Fleet" of missing ships which does not include any capital ship smaller than a Victory Star Destroyer. Seeing that BLACKSWORDCOM obviously included rather more than the "Black Fleet" – evidenced by the fact that the "Black Fleet" consists entirely of those ships belonging to BLACKSWORDCOM for which the Asset Tracking Office was unable to account – , it is rather obvious that the composition of Nylykerka's "Black Fleet" has little to no bearing on the composition of BLACKSWORDCOM.

In other words, the honorable gentleman provides evidence that B is a subset of A, and proceeds to claim with a straight face that because B does not contain C, A cannot possibly include C, either.

To clarify the matter, it is important to note that BLACKSWORDCOM was a very, very large command. ADM Drayson told ADM Ackbar in Before the Storm that its territory included "the center of the Empire's Rim territories" including the Kokash and Farlax Sectors; ADM Ackbar mentions that the Koornacht Cluster is in the Kokash and Farlax Sectors, and The Essential Chronology adds that it is on the fridges of the Deep Core, and that Mme Director Isard believed BLACKSWORDCOM's missing ships to have been lost at Cal-Seti, several Sectors away. In other words, as Illuminatus Primus has pointed out, BLACKSWORDCOM's area of responsibility, or AOR, extended from the Deep Core to the Inner or Mid-Rim, and includes many Sectors – when one talks about BLACKSWORDCOM, one is talking about a vast region of space.

The honorable gentleman would have us believe that the ships possessed by the Yevetha were not a part of BLACKSWORDCOM. And yet in the same breath he tells us that they did in fact possess HIMS Intimidator, one of the forty-four ships in BLACKSWORDCOM's Order of Battle for which the Asset Tracking Office was unable to account. In other words, A belongs to B, and group X possesses A; yet the honorable gentleman would have you believe that group X possesses no part of B.

No, indeed, the prologue to Before the Storm unambiguously states that Intimidator had been sent to Black FIFTEEN "to free up a Super-class shipway at the command's home shipbuilding yard" – and yet the honorable gentleman would have us believe that she was no part of the command, the facts that the command's primary shipyard built her and that the command sent her to another of its yards for finish work notwithstanding. HIMS Intimidator and the other ships seized by the Yevetha were admittedly a very small part of BLACKSWORDCOM, but they were a part of it nevertheless.

Now, the idea that the Yevetha did not seize all the ships of Nylykerka's "Black Fleet" is credible. By his calculation, 39 of those 44 ships were "newly laid keels or in a yard somewhere for refit or major repairs," and that within the time period between HIMS Gnisnal's OOB and BLACKSWORDCOM's withdrawal, "more than half" of those 39 ships were scheduled for completion or full repair. It is not known how many of those ships were actually in the Koornacht Cluster at the time of the Yevethan uprising. Nevertheless, to claim that they were not a part of BLACKSWORDCOM is to wilfully disregard the evidence.

[Rogue 9]

Ok, guys, math time.

The explosion of the Pride of the Yevetha (the EX-F renamed) at the battle of Gravlex Med cooked off with enough power to destroy six flanking Imperial-class Star Destroyers.

It is estimated that on the order of several tens to hundreds of millions of tons of antimatter would needed to blow up with sufficient force to completely annhiliate six nearby ISDs. Quite possibly in excess to an ISD's mass in antimatter. It stands to reason that such a quantity could not be contained by Dreadnaught-class CH.

Moreover, the text of BFC refers to the vessels in orbit around N'zoth at Black FIFTEEN as "nine Star Destroyers" all together. Imperial ships-of-the-line are frequently colloquially termed "Star Destroyers" irrespective of more precise role descriptions such as Star Dreadnought (in the case of the Executor). At the very least, a Dreadnaught-class CH is not a Star Destroyer, by either the role descriptor definition or the colloquial definition. Moreover, the "Black Fleet" is described as containing 44 ships, none smaller than a Victory-class Star Destroyer. A Victory-class Star Destroyer's length overall is 900 meters. A Dreadnaught-class "Heavy Cruiser" is 600 meters in length.

Therefore, the EX-F/Glory of Yevetha is in fact more likely a modified Star Dreadnought.

Thanks to Publius for providing many of the sources not currently available to me.

But would a testbed have been part of Black Sword Command? It was a test vessel. Therefore I highly doubt that it was a regular part of Black Sword's combat OOB. It seems more likely that it was simply stationed at the shipyards to test weapons (it's primary purpose, thus "testbed") possibly because, as noted many times in the books, the Yevethans are uncannily good at improving technology, making it work better, up to and including weapons. So, put testing equipment where these improvements can be tested. But would the testing platform be one of the local sector garrison's regular combat vessels? I think not.