PETA, The Army, and Goats

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Lonestar
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PETA, The Army, and Goats

Post by Lonestar »

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/5942820/
Army set to injure goats for training
National Humane Society outragedBy TOM ROEDER THE GAZETTE
The Colorado Springs GazetteUSA - A planned training exercise at Fort Carson has drawn fire from animal welfare groups because it involves soldiers injuring an undisclosed number of goats.

Later this month, medics from the 10th Special Forces Group will learn battlefield medical techniques at the post by treating the goats, which will be sedated and then injured to simulate combat wounds, the Army confirmed Tuesday.

The Army is unapologetic about the nature of the training, saying the goats will be sacrificed to save the lives of soldiers fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan.

"It's very important training," said Ben Abel, a spokesman for Army Special Forces Command in Fort Bragg, N.C., which is responsible for the training exercise at Fort Carson.

That's not good enough for the Washington-based Humane Society of the United States, which last week sent a letter of protest to Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, calling on him to spare the Fort Carson goats.

"We wouldn't be much of a Humane Society if we didn't oppose the shooting of goats for training purposes," said Martin Stephens, the organization's vice president for animal research issues.

Stephens said his organiza- tion was tipped off to the upcoming training by an informant at the post.

The informant said plans call for pushing at least one goat off a cliff, Stephens said.

Abel declined to provide details of how the goats will be injured.

The Army and animal welfare advocates have been at odds since the 1970s over similar training exercises.

At bases around the country, goats are used to simulate wounded soldiers so medics can hone skills before heading to war.

Medics and doctors have trained using animals throughout Army history.

"The animals are put under general anesthesia, and they are wounded so that our medics can train in a realistic scenario that allows them to get hands-on experiences with live tissue," Abel said.

Abel said the training complies with federal animal cruelty laws.

After the animals are treated by Army medics, they are killed and cremated.

The Army has made concessions in the past, Stephens said, discontinuing similar training using dogs and switching to goats.

Abel characterized the number of goats that will be wounded and eventually killed at Fort Carson this month as "a small amount," but he wouldn't provide a number.

The goat-based training augments a variety of schooling given to Special Forces medics.

The medics also spend time at trauma care hospitals in major cities nationwide to gain experience that they can use on the battlefield, Abel said.

Stephens, a biologist, said there are better ways to learn battlefield medicine.

He said the goats could be spared if the Army went hightech, using electronic simulations to replace the animal training.

"There clearly has to be a better way," Stephens said.

Abel said the goats save human lives.

"If medics didn't get this training, their first interaction with serious wounds would be on the battlefield," he said.
(Bolding mine)

What? Are you Fucking stupid?

From Early Bird:
Colorado Springs Gazette
September 9, 2004
Pg. 1

Goat Lovers Aghast Over Army Plan

Sedating, wounding, then treating animals is good training, spokesman says

By Tom Roeder, The Gazette

Toni Shoop of Colorado Springs was angry with the Army on Wednesday.

She wasn’t mad at the soldiers at Fort Carson, or even fired up about the war in Iraq. She says she’s pro-Army.

Shoop is a goat lover who said she was driven to rage by a planned Special Forces training exercise at Fort Carson that includes soldiers sedating, then wounding and treating injuries on goats.

She called Fort Carson and the Humane Society of the United States in an attempt to stop the training, which the Army said is necessary to save injured soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Officials said by treating the goats, the 10th Special Forces Group medics will learn how to handle the wounds they’ll see on the battlefield.

The goats are treated humanely, said Maj. Rob Gowan, spokesman for Special Operations Command at Fort Bragg, N.C., which is responsible for training.

The Army has conducted similar training for decades.

Gowan, who said he was getting a lot of inquiries on the goat issue Wednesday, wrote a lengthy e-mail that he’s sending to the angry and the curious explaining how the goats are treated.

For Shoop, who has loved goats since seeing them at the Colorado State Fair as a child, nothing the Army says is likely to be good enough.

“I just think it’s terrible that they are putting a defenseless animal out there and they are shooting at them,” she said.

Gowan said the goats feel no pain.

“The animals are put under general anesthesia and only then are combat wounds replicated,” Gowan wrote in the e-mail.

“It is important to understand that mutilation or torture is not practiced in this important training.”

The goats, which are purchased on a federal contract through an Army vendor, are put to sleep after the training and their remains are cremated for disposal. It’s all in accordance with federal rules, Gowan said.

The animal class augments other schooling for the medics, who also spend time working in hospital emergency rooms as on-the-job training, he said.

No matter the good intentions of the training, goat fans remain upset.

“They are almost like humans,” said Karen Robinson, of Colorado Springs, who raises goats.

“It upsets me so badly. I’ve always been against animals being used like this,” said Rosella Telles, of Colorado Springs, another pro-Army animal lover.

“It’s a waste of time and money and it’s cruel.”

An unscientific Internet poll of Gazette readers favored the goats over the Army training 79-63.

Animal rights groups, including People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals, have been asking the Army for years to stop the training.

PETA started a letter-writing campaign Wednesday in a bid to spare the Carson goats.

“We do not believe that the use of animals is ethical or necessary,” said Peter Wood, a PETA researcher who works in Washington D.C.

Gowan, though, said the training will go forward. He said it’s crucial because Green Berets often fight in remote areas where little medical care is available. “This training saves lives.”
I wonder what a PETA "researcher" actually does.
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Post by Rogue 9 »

A PETA researcher researches new depths of stupidity, so that the organization may sink to them.
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Post by Master of Ossus »

All PETA researches come complete with their own degrees in communications from the University of Phoenix online.

Keep killing the goats to save our troops, goddamnit. Even if it only has the POTENTIAL to save one life, it would be more than worth it.
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Post by Darth Wong »

The imbeciles running PETA have been saying for years that all animal-related medical experimentation should be replaced by computer simulations. They obviously do not understand the concept of empirical testing and why it is necessary. Why should this be any different?
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Post by Alyeska »

Master of Ossus wrote:All PETA researches come complete with their own degrees in communications from the University of Phoenix online.

Keep killing the goats to save our troops, goddamnit. Even if it only has the POTENTIAL to save one life, it would be more than worth it.
What the hell is wrong with UP Online and a communications degree?
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Post by Rogue 9 »

Alyeska wrote:
Master of Ossus wrote:All PETA researches come complete with their own degrees in communications from the University of Phoenix online.

Keep killing the goats to save our troops, goddamnit. Even if it only has the POTENTIAL to save one life, it would be more than worth it.
What the hell is wrong with UP Online and a communications degree?
Well, it has nothing to do with animal research...
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Post by Master of Ossus »

Alyeska wrote:What the hell is wrong with UP Online and a communications degree?
It has nothing to do with research, whatsoever, and everything to do with making press releases and such. It was a jab more at their job description than anything else. I've seen several PETA "researchers" making claims and such in press releases, but here's the kicker: nothing that they say betrays any sort of research at all. "We do not believe that the use of animals is ethical or necessary.” You can see how long it took him to run the experiments that determined that. The thing is, they've ALL been like that. I suppose they might be "researching" philosophy or some shit, but if that's the case then why are they getting paid by someone to do it? I can easily come up with a philosopher who felt that hurting animals was wrong with a 10 minute Google search.

The point is that these people are not actual researchers, but instead use that as a catchy job-title designed to lend weight to their opinions, rather than letting their arguments stand for themselves.
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Post by Joe »

God, I wish a bear would eat these people or something.
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Post by Quadlok »

Anyone who's ever met a goat should have realized that they're a cross between a garbage compactor, brushhog, and some sort of evil hellspawn.
Honestly, they're disgusting, creepy, ill-tempered little things that deserve worse. Just try looking a goat in the eye and not having your first thought be something like 'begone, Satan.'

And if PETA is so eager to save the goats, why don't they volunteer as subjects in their place? Show some conviction, people!
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Post by Rogue 9 »

Hey, don't insult the goats! We kept goats when I was a kid. I have pictures of me being tackled by goat kids... Ah, the memories.
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Post by Quadlok »

Rogue 9 wrote:Hey, don't insult the goats! We kept goats when I was a kid. I have pictures of me being tackled by goat kids... Ah, the memories.
I maintain that they are evil hellspawn. Any pretense of being cute and lovable is only meant to lull you into a false sense of security so that they might impale you on their horns and suck out your soul.
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Post by Korvan »

The only thing I object to is that they cremate the goats after it's all done. They should be used to make some tasty kababs. If that was the case, then I'd reccomend switch from using goats to lambs, not quite so tough.
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Post by 18-Till-I-Die »

Well it is cruel to kill the goats, and yeah it is wrong, but it cant be helped so...that doesnt make it right that makes it nessecary. I'm not saying they should do everything with computers or anything, i'm saying that yes it's nessecsary but it's still cruel.
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Post by Patrick Ogaard »

Quadlok wrote:Anyone who's ever met a goat should have realized that they're a cross between a garbage compactor, brushhog, and some sort of evil hellspawn.
Honestly, they're disgusting, creepy, ill-tempered little things that deserve worse. Just try looking a goat in the eye and not having your first thought be something like 'begone, Satan.'

And if PETA is so eager to save the goats, why don't they volunteer as subjects in their place? Show some conviction, people!
Actually, though, your objections to goats can be applied with just as much justification to any random three people out of a group of five pulled off public transportation.

Actually, disregarding PETA and its minions (which is just as well), a less animal-intensive solution, and one designed to relieve stress on the prison system as well as increase realism in the training, would be to give imprisoned felons the option of volunteering (with comprehensive waivers) for procedures in return for commuted sentences. A bullet through the biceps might be worth two years off, while a shot through the lower spine, with guaranteed paraplegia and substantial risk of death, might be worth the commution of thirty years or so. Realistic training, no harm to goats, and the opportunity for convicted criminals to provide a benefit to society while simultaneously reducing their sentences substantially.
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Post by RedX »

18-Till-I-Die wrote:Well it is cruel to kill the goats, and yeah it is wrong, but it cant be helped so...that doesnt make it right that makes it nessecary. I'm not saying they should do everything with computers or anything, i'm saying that yes it's nessecsary but it's still cruel.
Cruelty is, IMO, only when it's needless- the inflicting of harm for no good reason. Killing and eating a cow is hardly 'cruel'- we do it all the time, in job lots.

Of course, there's a fine line between a 'good' reason and a bad one. Mostly, the difference is the intentions of the person doing it... and what the potential options are.

In this case, it's not 'nice', but it's not cruel. There's an even better reason for this than for most animal deaths.

The above, BTW, only applies to nonsentient creatures. Anything that's even vaguely self-aware should decide for its own self.
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Post by Patrick Ogaard »

Korvan wrote:The only thing I object to is that they cremate the goats after it's all done. They should be used to make some tasty kababs. If that was the case, then I'd reccomend switch from using goats to lambs, not quite so tough.
That wouldn't work. The goats should be soaked with (some potentially very harmful) pharmaceuticals by the end, meaning they'd be not too terribly legal for human consumption.
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Post by neoolong »

I think the better way would be to see if PETA members would volunteer. See how strong those convictions really are.

And considering that the point is to practice on live tissue, I don't see how any sort of electronic simulations is going to work.
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Post by Edi »

I suppose they could lessen the need for animal experiments by increasing the amount of time army medics would spend in trauma and ER wards in hospitals, especially if they are put into ambulance crews, but it will still not eliminate the need completely. It might not be palatable, but given the current reality, it is necessary.

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Post by DPDarkPrimus »

Korvan wrote:The only thing I object to is that they cremate the goats after it's all done. They should be used to make some tasty kababs. If that was the case, then I'd reccomend switch from using goats to lambs, not quite so tough.
If you want to be picking sutures outta your mouth, go ahead. :P
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Post by Kuja »

"So, you ate a goat."

"Yeah."

"And what do goats eat?"

"Uh..."

"ANYTHING!"

"Ohhhhh!"

"They eat ANYTHING! So when you eat a goat, you're NOT just eating a GOAT! You're eating EVERYTHING that goat's ever EATEN!"

"Oh, man!"

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Post by Bob the Gunslinger »

Quadlok wrote:
Rogue 9 wrote:Hey, don't insult the goats! We kept goats when I was a kid. I have pictures of me being tackled by goat kids... Ah, the memories.
I maintain that they are evil hellspawn. Any pretense of being cute and lovable is only meant to lull you into a false sense of security so that they might impale you on their horns and suck out your soul.
But Goats are kosher! Don't slander these deliciuos, delicious creatures with your Satan and hellfire!
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Post by Bob the Gunslinger »

PETA must hate Cary Elwes and Kelsey Grammar for their delightful comedy The Pentagon Wars, where goat testing is used to demonstrate the inadequacies of the Bradley.
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Post by Stormbringer »

Can we get PETA volunteers to take the goats places?
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Post by Patrick Ogaard »

Bob the Gunslinger wrote:PETA must hate Cary Elwes and Kelsey Grammar for their delightful comedy The Pentagon Wars, where goat testing is used to demonstrate the inadequacies of the Bradley.
I thought those were sheep. Or is my memory going? Oh well, easy come, easy go.
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Post by Bob the Gunslinger »

...Oops, maybe it was sheep. I am embarrassment.
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