Borg/Species 8472/Empire Debate

[Darth Servo]

That's the link http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Myt ... ience.html

Essentially. I was trying to make the link go directly to the Frequency myth.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

If A Star Destroyer is super accurate then why wasnt the Millennium Falcon vaporized in this shot?

THAT IS A PRODUCTION PICTURE. YOU CANNOT USE THAT AS EVIDENCE, YOU DAMN MORON.

Keep in mind that I'm not yelling. I wrote it big do make sure the words are able to reach your brain.

[Howedar]

We're approaching VI status, methinks.

[His Divine Shadow]

You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar....

[Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman]

The basic blaster technology of intensifying a beam of light into a deadly bolt is scalable, and largely the same despite the differences in weapon types and sizes. The interior mechanisms of a tiny hold-out blaster, a blaster pistol, a large blaster rifle, and a turbolaser cannon are based on the same theories and principles. A squeeze of a trigger emits volatile blaster gas into a conversion chamber, where it is excited by energy from the weapon's power source. The agitated gas is then funneled through the actuating blaster module, where it is processed into an intense particle beam. A prismatic crystal focuses the beam, and passes it through a refinement chamber which "galvens" the beam into its final bolt.
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Also from SW.com, sounds like a Phase Partical ST Phaser to me. No Number needed of the official web site

SO FUCKING WHAT????? Are you trying to tell us that since SW blaster's mechanism **sounds** like ST phaser to you, then SW beam weapos (blasters, laser cannons, turbolasers) are as WEAK as ST phasers?

First, point us to at least a *single* events in SW and ST which shows that SW beam weapons destroy their target THE SAME WAY with ST phasers.

Next, please compare the power between SW beam weapons and ST phasers. Let's see if that can help your arguments at all.

BTW, Sovereign, I'm sick seeing you using vague statements ("sounds like", "powerful enough", etc) instead of numbers, wildly quoting various sources WITHOUT even proving WHY they should help your arguments, and making unsupported claims like "the Feds will ally with the Dominion" bullshit.

Unless you can backup what you say, please SHUT THE FUCK UP!

Unless you can give a strong argument

[SPOOFE]

The info says it only cover PART of a Planet not all of it.

SW.com is not the only source of information. Numerous sources - starting with the Timothy Zahn novels - describe planetary shield setups that encompass the entire world.

[Ender]

You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar....

But you catch even moreflies with shit.

[Ender]

The info says it only cover PART of a Planet not all of it. That would be a lot of shield generator and they have not the time to build them when they are on the run.

Yes, and by having several, the shields merge and can cover a lrger area, just like we saw in The Phantom Menace. So having numerous, large shields would cover the entire planet. Corusucant had a full, double layer self reinforcing shield.

And why the hell would they be on the run? Ignoring the fact that a freaking corvette could shred through a small feddie fleet, the extreme time it takes Trek ships to cross space compared to Wars ships means that they could have weeks to dig in.

[Ender]

A Star Wars Laser is really a form of Plasma Technology, I forget which Novel explained it, but to a Star Trek Ship it would be very powerful and would take out a ships shields with no problem.

Yes, I posted that earlier and you gnored it. A single LTL shot would vape a cube. Vaporize it.

This happened during the Dominion Wars when the Cardassians deployed defence platforms that used Plasma Weapons. The Allies lost lots of ships to these.

Yes, because since the name is the same, the power level must be too.
Idiot.

Now this still does not make a ISD invincible to Allied fire power.

No, it's shields would do that, not the guns.

Small Ships like to Defiant Class could and would dodge almost any ISD attack.

Wars weapons were picking off 1 meter tall R2 droids from a fleeing ship, and you areclaiming they couldn't nail a 170 meter long ship?

It takes a lot of energy to power an ISDs shields this is why they do not have both of them (energy/physical shields) on at the same time.

Where the fuck do you get that from? In battle the always have both going. ANd they have plentuy of power to givethe the shields.

This would allow a sneak attack to damage an ISD.

Exactly how would you pull of this sneakattack? We learned in Rebel Dream that now all Wars ships mount grav sensors, meaning they woul detect any cloaked ship (and I'm being gracious enough to assume you are speaking of a Romuln or Klingon attack, and not that all Defiant class ships hve coaks), and they have FTL sensors meaning they would pick up any ship about to shhot at them from a light second out.

If the Rebels joined with the Allies, and they would,

Why? Trek has nothing to offer them. Their shipyards would be inadequete for producing Wars ships, thier materials technology is lacking (by comparrison), and their personel would need massive technical training that the basic raw rebel recuit already has coming into their organization.

it would mean that ST ships would be upgraded for Hyperspace.

Yes, because I can easily swap out a nuclear powered carrier propulsion system with the a gas turbine system currently on a frigate.

This could be easy to do since all they would have to do is change from ant-matter to hyper matter.

Well, most everyone else already mocked you for this, so I'm just going to point out a fundamental flaw here: The reactor, which uses hypermatter to power the ship, is not the hyperdrive, which propells the ship at FTL.

An alliance of all the ST species could happen. The Federation, Klingons, and Romulans were mortal enemies for almost 200 years, 2151-2369, and they joined against the Dominion.

Which is why most people assume the FKR alliance.

With the Cardassians crippled, they will join the Allies.

Proof?

The Gorn are allies to the feds.

Proof?

The Tholians Would help out the Feds.

Proof?

The Dominion would also help out since they would be next in line for invasion.

Proof?

Can anbody find anything wrong with this? I want to figure this out in a common sence fasion.

Well, aside from the fact I have no clue what "sence" is, you problem is that you are making assumptions without proof. Further, the Gorn and Tholatians have shown nothing indiating they are technologically on par with the current Feds. In addition, you are including the Cardies and Dominion, both of which just got knocked out in a war, meaning they have shit to contribute to help, and would be moreof a drain then a help.

Plus the rebels would be better served by pointing at Trek and telling the Empire to go after them, giving them time to strengthen their position, then by aligning wt the Federation.

[Ender]

The basic blaster technology of intensifying a beam of light into a deadly bolt is scalable, and largely the same despite the differences in weapon types and sizes. The interior mechanisms of a tiny hold-out blaster, a blaster pistol, a large blaster rifle, and a turbolaser cannon are based on the same theories and principles. A squeeze of a trigger emits volatile blaster gas into a conversion chamber, where it is excited by energy from the weapon's power source. The agitated gas is then funneled through the actuating blaster module, where it is processed into an intense particle beam. A prismatic crystal focuses the beam, and passes it through a refinement chamber which "galvens" the beam into its final bolt.
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Also from SW.com, sounds like a Phase Partical ST Phaser to me. No Number needed of the official web site

Funny, aside from the select bit you chose, there isn't anything there that sounda the least bit like a phaser. I don't see the term nadion, I don't see any mention of knockin anything out of phase, and I can't recall phasers ever being described like that. In fact, this just seems to be a description of a plasm weapon, which is what blasters are.

[Ender]

Takes a lot of power for shields like that.

So you just proved that Wars ships are incredibly powerful. Thanks.

ST has planetary shields too, stations like on Mars have shields around them.

And your proof for that is? I remember that there are planetary defenses on Mars, but nothing about there being a shield. In fact, we haven't seen shields on Feddie planets since TOS

[Ender]

If A Star Destroyer is super accurate then why wasnt the Millennium Falcon vaporized in this shot?

You means aside from the fact the Falcom mounts military grade shieling, and they were firing flak bursts from the tls and Ions cannons from the TIEs?

I still believe a Fleet of Defiant class ships could put up a fight.

I still believe in humanity. Desn't mean I'm right though.

Maybe not for long, but long enough to get sensor readings on shields or whatever.

What praytell, woudl that do for them aside from showing that Imperials don't have frequencies to exploit and that the shields are bloody powerful?


Link your god damned pics from now on, I hate to fucking Hscroll for every bloody post simply because you ae an idiot. And like everyone said, that's a production photo.

It may be true that calculations show that a SW shield is too powerful for a ST torpedoe to penatrate it, then why do they still use Nuclear Torpedoes?

Yes, because the name is more important then the capabilities. I bet if I had a MT level M/AM warhead and a GT level Nuclear warhead, you'd say the M/AM one was more powerful because of the name, right?

The ROTJ Novel states that a Nuclear Torpedoe detonated outside of the Rebel Command Cruiser. ST Torpedoes are stronger than average Nuclear Technology, it should still have some kind of fighting chance.

The missiles that Slave 1 was packing were mor powerful then Quantum torpedoes. If we go by capital grade missiles or fighter cap killers, we get GT-TT level torps. So no, you don't have a fucking prayer.

One thing on the note of sensors, this site says that SW sensors are superior to ST sesors, but the Death Star did not detect any life forms on the Falcon in 'A NEW HOPE' or did the boarding party have sensors to detect life. Is this because of stupidity or sensor problems?

It is because the Falcon had shielded compartments.

[Master of Ossus]

The info says it only cover PART of a Planet not all of it. That would be a lot of shield generator and they have not the time to build them when they are on the run.

What are you talking about? The Alderaan shield clearly protected at least one hemisphere, which is consistent with all other sources of information from the EU and from the other films (Endor and Hoth shields). MANY EU sources depict full planetary shields, necessitating blockades, and other sources depict very large scale shields. Even a small REFUGEE planet, with less than a thousand inhabitants, had a planetary shield in SW. They are not at all uncommon, and do not appear to be difficult to set up.

[Master of Ossus]

If A Star Destroyer is super accurate then why wasnt the Millennium Falcon vaporized in this shot?

This guy is a perfect replacement for Loser099.

Now back to the post: First of all, this picture was never shown in the movie itself, however more shots like it were also shown. The Falcon was not vaporized because the ISD was not attempting to vaporize it. The ISD's objective was to capture the Falcon and its crew. Perhaps you missed Vader instructing his officers to capture the Falcon, or when he told Boba Fett not to use disintegrations as he wanted the crew alive.

I still believe a Fleet of Defiant class ships could put up a fight. Maybe not for long, but long enough to get sensor readings on shields or whatever.

This is a very common creationist tactic. "I believe it, so that settles it." Unfortunately, as I constantly remind people, your assertions do not a fact make. A fleet of Defiant class vessels would be annihilated by an ISD in seconds. MTL's would almost certainly do significant damage to such vessels, and the SF ships would have no ability to harm the ISD in return. Further, Sovereign justifies this truly bizarre statement by saying that they could last long enough to get "sensor readings on the shields or whatever." I have absolutely no idea why he feels that this in anyway makes his statement correct. Okay, so they can get sensor readings. Conceeded. Now what are they going to DO with those sensor readings?

It may be true that calculations show that a SW shield is too powerful for a ST torpedoe to penatrate it, then why do they still use Nuclear Torpedoes? The ROTJ Novel states that a Nuclear Torpedoe detonated outside of the Rebel Command Cruiser. ST Torpedoes are stronger than average Nuclear Technology, it should still have some kind of fighting chance.

First of all, this isn't true. It said that there were THERMONUCLEAR explosions outside of the Rebel cruiser. Second of all, those detonations did not appear to be harming the ship. They were likely caused by fire from starfighters, and not capital ships. More importantly, M/AM torpedoes are actually more powerful than conventional nuclear weapons (the implication that he was going for), and they (get this) STILL CAN'T HURT AN ISD! SW weapons are orders of magnitude more powerful than modern nuclear explosions, or ST weapons. Why is this difficult to understand? Finally, the AotC ICS clearly states that Acclamators (yes, they're troop ships) can withstand thermonuclear explosions to the bare hull of the ship. A starfighter probably cannot, but the larger capital ships clearly can. This should conclusively demonstrate that the cruiser in RotJ either was not a very well protected ship (known to be false from EU statements that clearly show Mon Calamari cruisers of that class are actually tougher than ISD's), or that the thermonuclear explosions outside the ship were not a serious threat to the ship itself.

One thing on the note of sensors, this site says that SW sensors are superior to ST sesors, but the Death Star did not detect any life forms on the Falcon in 'A NEW HOPE' or did the boarding party have sensors to detect life. Is this because of stupidity or sensor problems?

This is because the Falcon was specifically designed to prevent the crew from being detected. Note that a relatively small box would have detected the crew, at close range. What part of this is difficult to understand, for you, Sovereign?

[Master of Ossus]

Takes a lot of power for shields like that. ST has planetary shields too, stations like on Mars have shields around them. Dont tell me that info is bull eather, it cam from Star Wars.com, so if you do not believe the official web site then what else is there?

Okay, it takes a lot of energy to power huge, planetary scale shields. So what? The fact that they can do so easily around relatively insignficant planets on short notice only further proves that SW technology is superior to ST technology.

Further, Mars does not have planetary shields. It has planetary DEFENSES, but not planetary shields. Incidentally, in BoBW, those little fighters that the Borg Cube eliminated with one shot each, are the extent of Mars's planetary defenses that are known to exist, thus far. Not even Earth had planetary shields that could prevent the Founders from infiltrating it, or that could withstand a Jem'Hadar fleet attack for a few hours (needed for the ships from DS9 to return to Earth). A SW shield would easily have stopped that.

And BTW, SW planetary shields are generated from multiple locations, but each shield encompasses and protects only a portion of the planet. So what? We already know that.

[Sovereign]

Why is it so hard to see the Dominion and Federation working together? In The New Jedi Order series The Empire and the New Republic joined forces against the Yuuzhan Vong, why cant they? Even the Voyager and the Borg made an alliance against Species 8472.

[Cpt_Frank]

Well doesn't matter if they allie,
because in the end, they will all die.
SW weapons have so much firepower the nothing ST except for the god entities could stand up to them.

[Master of Ossus]

Why is it so hard to see the Dominion and Federation working together? In The New Jedi Order series The Empire and the New Republic joined forces against the Yuuzhan Vong, why cant they? Even the Voyager and the Borg made an alliance against Species 8472.

Have you even read the NJO? The Empire and the New Republic ARE NOT working together. You are clearly mistaken or lying intentionally.

In any case, the Dominion and the Federation probably would not work together because their goals and objectives are completely different, and because they are separated by large distances. Alliances require something called a "coincidence of goals," that is, they require both sides to have some objective that could be made more easily attainable through the aid of the other side. In this case, the goal would be survival against the Empire. The problem is that the Federation would hardly choose the Dominion over the Empire (and that appears to be the only way to strike an alliance with the Dominion--to join them in all but name). Further, the Dominion would not significantly better the UFP's chances of survival during the conflict. Their chances would still be effectively non-existent, and the aid of another ST power would not add significantly to their ability to defend themselves. More importantly, what would an alliance do? The two sides still need to protect their own planets, and would almost certainly not leave themselves open for attack in order to protect their allies. Thus, an alliance would accomplish little or nothing, and would be a risky endeavor for the UFP, if not the Dominion.

[Spartan]

You are completely missing the point. There in no threat in the entire ST Galaxy outside of god-like being that has a chance against even a moderae size imperial invasion. And don't even think about bringing them up, I got the gasoline all ready for ya.

Of all the powers yo've mentiond the Borg are actually the least likly to be a problem (note I don't even qualify them as a threat). There a group mind completly dependent on the constant function of there comm system. They use subspace comms to direct everything, which a glaring weakness. When an average Imperial ship can jam subspace suite has more avaiible power than a Borg ships entire powerout. It's very likely in the face of real jamming, most drones will either malfunction or be killed outright. But even full power jamming isn't necessary, because drones that are simply cutoff from the collective either die, or revert to normal (either way there useless).

[Sovereign]

A Star Wars laser is not a form of plasma tech at all, it is a form of EM energy that can be fired at variable velocities from 0 to 300.000km/s

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Star Destroyer.net says...

Turbolasers fire intense blasts of energy at their targets. There is some debate as to whether turbolasers are lasers or some sort of particle-beam weapon such as a plasma cannon (either function would be consistent with the word "turbolaser"). The SWVD states that blasters and turbolasers "use high-energy gas as ammunition, activated by a power cell and converted into plasma. The plasma is released from a magnetic bottle effect to fire through collimating components as a coherent energy bolt". Obviously, this strongly suggests that the plasma-weapon interpretation of turbolaser operating principles is valid.

[Darth Servo]

Star Destroyer.net says...

Turbolasers fire intense blasts of energy at their targets. There is some debate as to whether turbolasers are lasers or some sort of particle-beam weapon such as a plasma cannon (either function would be consistent with the word "turbolaser"). The SWVD states that blasters and turbolasers "use high-energy gas as ammunition, activated by a power cell and converted into plasma. The plasma is released from a magnetic bottle effect to fire through collimating components as a coherent energy bolt". Obviously, this strongly suggests that the plasma-weapon interpretation of turbolaser operating principles is valid.

Fine. Now please explain how that excerpt shows that blasters are ANYTHING like phasers.

[Master of Ossus]

A Star Wars laser is not a form of plasma tech at all, it is a form of EM energy that can be fired at variable velocities from 0 to 300.000km/s

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Star Destroyer.net says...

Turbolasers fire intense blasts of energy at their targets. There is some debate as to whether turbolasers are lasers or some sort of particle-beam weapon such as a plasma cannon (either function would be consistent with the word "turbolaser"). The SWVD states that blasters and turbolasers "use high-energy gas as ammunition, activated by a power cell and converted into plasma. The plasma is released from a magnetic bottle effect to fire through collimating components as a coherent energy bolt". Obviously, this strongly suggests that the plasma-weapon interpretation of turbolaser operating principles is valid.

There are, of course, many reasons why they are probably NOT plasma based technology. I think we're missing the point, though. We ASSUME that ST shields would be as effective against turbolasers as they are against weapons in ST because of the concept of parity. That is really not open for debate, unless there is a particular reason to suspect that ST shields would be totally ineffective.

[Slartibartfast]

In addition, that 'shot' is publicity art, and isn't from the movie.

Also, you are displaying a very annoying NO NUMBERS mentality. You do know the difference between megaton and gigaton don't you?

Plus it's fairly obvious that these are the TIEs firing.

[Ender]

Why is it so hard to see the Dominion and Federation working together? In The New Jedi Order series The Empire and the New Republic joined forces against the Yuuzhan Vong, why cant they? Even the Voyager and the Borg made an alliance against Species 8472.

If you actully read the series, you would know that outside of Garqi and Ithor they did not cooperate at all. Further, the fact that the Dominion is a freshly defeated enemy means it woudl be more of a drain on the federation. The Imperials had close to a decade to rebuild. The dominion hasn't had nearly as much time.

[Ender]

A Star Wars laser is not a form of plasma tech at all, it is a form of EM energy that can be fired at variable velocities from 0 to 300.000km/s

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Star Destroyer.net says...

Turbolasers fire intense blasts of energy at their targets. There is some debate as to whether turbolasers are lasers or some sort of particle-beam weapon such as a plasma cannon (either function would be consistent with the word "turbolaser"). The SWVD states that blasters and turbolasers "use high-energy gas as ammunition, activated by a power cell and converted into plasma. The plasma is released from a magnetic bottle effect to fire through collimating components as a coherent energy bolt". Obviously, this strongly suggests that the plasma-weapon interpretation of turbolaser operating principles is valid.

HDS uses an interpretation of a statement out of AOTC ICS where as Wong chooses to let his page stand with older information to remind people that even without the numbers in that bok Wars still wipes the floor with trek.