Kerry Supports AWB. Rev. Jackson tired.

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Kerry Supports AWB. Rev. Jackson tired.

Post by Master of Ossus »

CNN link
CNN wrote:ST. LOUIS, Missouri (AP) -- Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry said Friday that President Bush failed to protect Americans from criminals and terrorists by letting a ban on assault weapons expire next week.

"In the al-Qaeda manual on terror, they were telling people to go out and buy assault weapons, to come to America and buy assault weapons," Kerry said. "Every law enforcement officer in America doesn't want us selling assault weapons in the streets of America, but George Bush, he says, 'Well, I'm for that."'

As he frequently tells voters on the campaign trail, Kerry said he's a hunter and fisherman who respects the right of Americans to own guns.

He has pledged to protect 2nd Amendment rights and said the ban can be reinstated without trampling those rights.

"I mean, heavens to Betsy folks, we've had that law on the books for the last 10 years, and there's not a gun owner in America who can stand up and say they tried to take my guns away."

The four-term Massachusetts senator accused Bush of caving to the National Rifle Association, the powerful gun lobby. (Congress won't vote on assault weapons ban)

The Bush-Cheney campaign said Kerry shouldn't be trusted to protect gun-owners rights because of a 20-year Senate voting record in which he's backed gun-control legislation.

"His implication that the president is helping terrorists is just another example of a candidate who is behind in the polls and lashing out with flailing personal attacks," spokesman Steve Schmidt said.

Kerry also talked for a second day to Midwestern voters about health care, a sign the Democratic candidate thinks he can use rising medical and prescription drug costs to sway undecided voters as much as focusing on joblessness and the economy.

"I would put it in the top three issues, definitely," said campaign policy director Sarah Bianchi.

Kerry headed to competitive territory in the suburbs of St. Louis on Friday to argue that Bush slighted seniors while crafting a Medicare prescription drug plan that left a big hole in the coverage and forbid the government from negotiating cheaper prices.

"The problem of what's happening with health care represents a real problem with this administration and with George Bush's priorities because his priority has been: No. 1, the insurance companies, the HMOs; No. 2, the drug companies ... and No. 3, you," Kerry said. "I'm putting you first."

A day earlier, he told voters in evenly divided Iowa that Bush ignored four years of double-digit increases in employer-sponsored health care premiums.

"President Bush for four years has had an opportunity to try to deal with this, and he has no plan at all," the Massachusetts senator said. "In fact, he's been busy losing people's coverage."

Drew Altman, president of the nonpartisan Kaiser Family Foundation, said health care could be decisive in states like Iowa and Florida with older populations and very close races.

"It's all about costs and the prescription drug law," he said. "That's what you hammer on."

Democrats have traditionally held an edge over Republicans on health care issues.

Bush had eroded some of the Democrats' advantage before he enacted a massive Medicare prescription drug benefit that caused confusion and worry among seniors. The administration has spent millions explaining and promoting the new program.

Despite voters' questions about the administration's signature health care achievement, they give Bush more credit than Republicans generally on health care issues, Altman said.

While seniors focus on Medicare benefits, younger voters worry about myriad health care cost increases, including rising copays, deductibles, drug costs and premiums.

Some, especially those small businesses or in industries suffering job losses and layoffs, worry that they could quickly end up uninsured.
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Post by Joe »

Bush is in a real tight spot with this if it gets through Congress. If he signs it like he promised to, he's going to really piss off his base, many of whom are principled conservatives that aren't particularly thrilled with him anyway. If he doesn't sign it he throws the Kerry campaign a bone and they take revenge for the flip-flopper meme by pointing out one very public, very high-profile flip-flop on Dubya's part. It could cost him the election either way.
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Post by neoolong »

Uh, where's the link? I want to see the picture.
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Post by Beowulf »

The proposed AWB renewal bill

Critical point:
`(L) A semiautomatic rifle or shotgun originally designed for military or law enforcement use, or a firearm based on the design of such a firearm, that is not particularly suitable for sporting purposes, as determined by the Attorney General. In making the determination, there shall be a rebuttable presumption that a firearm procured for use by the United States military or any Federal law enforcement agency is not particularly suitable for sporting purposes, and a firearm shall not be determined to be particularly suitable for sporting purposes solely because the firearm is suitable for use in a sporting event

---
Section 922(v)(2) of title 18, United States Code, is amended--

(1) by inserting `(A)' after `(2)';

(2) by striking `on the date of the enactment of this subsection' and inserting `as of September 13, 1994'; and

(3) by adding after and below the end the following:

`(B) Paragraph (1) shall not apply to any firearm the possession or transfer of which would (but for this subparagraph) be unlawful by reason of this subsection, and which is otherwise lawfully possessed on the date of the enactment of this subparagraph.'.

---

`(42) PISTOL GRIP- The term `pistol grip' means a grip, a thumbhole stock, or any other characteristic that can function as a grip.
So let's take a look. Something that you use for sporting purposes can be banned simply because it can be used for non sporting purposes. Something derived from a military weapon is not to be considered a possibly sporting weapon. Guess my co-worker's M1A just got banned.

Oh, and since it got manufactured after 1994, it just got retroactively banned.

De facto ban on any semiautomatic rifle or shotgun. I don't know how'd you manage to actually hold onto a rifle or shotgun without gripping something, which would make whatever you're gripping a "characteristic that can function as a grip." Well... besides strapping it to your arm somehow. Does the term overly broad come to mind?

So Kerry "respects the right of Americans to own guns"? Hah! Oh and plenty of owners of SKS sporting rifles can claim that the government tried to take their guns away.

BTW, there is no link to the article this came from.
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Post by Beowulf »

Joe wrote:Bush is in a real tight spot with this if it gets through Congress. If he signs it like he promised to, he's going to really piss off his base, many of whom are principled conservatives that aren't particularly thrilled with him anyway. If he doesn't sign it he throws the Kerry campaign a bone and they take revenge for the flip-flopper meme by pointing out one very public, very high-profile flip-flop on Dubya's part. It could cost him the election either way.
A. It ain't getting through congress, because it's been sitting in commitee for the the last year.

B. The bill to renew it so drastically changes it, that it can be claimed it isn't really renewing it. See my point above about effectively banning every semiauto rifle and shotgun.
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Post by Beowulf »

Damn LOC query doesn't work for very long... search for S 1431 for the 108 Congress.
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Post by Master of Ossus »

neoolong wrote:Uh, where's the link? I want to see the picture.
Sorry about that. I forgot to type anything for the URL to link to.
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Post by Ma Deuce »

"In the al-Qaeda manual on terror, they were telling people to go out and buy assault weapons, to come to America and buy assault weapons," Kerry said
Oh, that's brilliant. Why would terrorists trouble themselves with the semi-auto weapons cited in the ban when they can easily get fully automatic* AKs and Uzis off the black market :roll:.

*which will be no more legal when the ban expires than they are now...
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Post by Master of Ossus »

Ma Deuce wrote:
"In the al-Qaeda manual on terror, they were telling people to go out and buy assault weapons, to come to America and buy assault weapons," Kerry said
Oh, that's brilliant. Why would terrorists trouble themselves with the semi-auto weapons cited in the ban when they can easily get fully automatic* AKs and Uzis off the black market :roll:.

*which will be no more legal when the ban expires than they are now...
Especially since they would actually be less expensive virtually anywhere else.
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Post by tharkûn »

Let's face it if you have the money you can get automatic weapons into the country. If you don't have the money your average deer rifle works perfectly well for killing people. If you absolutely must have automatic weapons you can always steal them from a collector. Britain has far more stringent gun controls but simple criminals manage to get very lethal amounts of firepower; tying this ban to terrorism is complete and utter BS.

The guns that kill most people are cheap, small, and not "assualt weapons". If your mission really requires more firepower than deer rifles and pistols then why in hell are you going through a background check? If I were a terrorist I'd steal my weapons even if I could legally buy them - the more times you go through law enforcement computers, the more times there are for you to get caught.

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:( Howie we miss you.
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Post by Talon Karrde »

Let's face it if you have the money you can get automatic weapons into the country.


Very true. Gun laws don't make us safer. Those who will committ the crimes will break the laws anyway. If I recall correctly the Columbine shooters broke 18 laws in the proccess of their murders.
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Post by HemlockGrey »

So now that the AWB has expired, are there *any* restrictions on the sale of automatic weapons? I mean, sure, I'd support making automatics available at absurdly expensive prices to collectors and such, but I don't think we should be selling them at the local country outfitter's.
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Post by Mr Bean »

HemlockGrey wrote:So now that the AWB has expired, are there *any* restrictions on the sale of automatic weapons? I mean, sure, I'd support making automatics available at absurdly expensive prices to collectors and such, but I don't think we should be selling them at the local country outfitter's.
They are still as illegale as they were before, you still can't stroll down to Kmart and pick up an AK-101 imported directely from Russia, nor can you go to an Army Surplus store and pick up a funtical M-16

Those are still as illegal

What exactly is illleage? Got this list off of Brady's website
The bill bans, by name, the manufacture of 19 different weapons:

Norinco, Mitchell, and Poly Technologies Avtomat Kalashnikovs (all models);
Action Arms Israeli Military Industries UZI and Galil;
Beretta Ar70 (SC-70);
Colt AR-15;
Fabrique National FN/FAL, FN/LAR, and FNC;
SWD M-10; M-11; M-11/9, and M-12;
Steyr AUG;
INTRATEC TEC-9, TEC-DC9, AND TEC-22;
revolving cylinder shotguns such as (or similar to) the Street Sweeper and Striker 12.
The bill also bans "copies" or "duplicates" of any of those weapons. The failure to include a ban of these "copies" or "duplicates" would have opened the door for widespread evasion of the ban. Even so, some unscrupulous gun manufacturers have tried to evade the law by making minor changes to their assault weapons in order to skirt the restrictions.

The 1994 law also prohibits manufacturers from producing firearms with more than one of the following assault weapon features:

Rifles

Folding/telescoping stock
Protruding pistol grip
Bayonet mount
Threaded muzzle or flash suppressor
Grenade launcher
Pistols

Magazine outside grip
Threaded muzzle
Barrel shroud
Unloaded weight of 50 ounces or more
Semi-automatic version of a fully automatic weapon
Shotguns

Folding/telescoping stock
Protruding pistol grip
Detachable magazine capacity
Fixed magazine capacity greater than 5 rounds
Thats whats becoming legal when the ban expires

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Post by Glocksman »

Point to remember: The AWB doesn't have a damn thing to do with machine guns.

Practically everyone I've discussed the issue with who wasn't a gun enthusiast thought the ban covered machine guns.
Of course when the newspeople show full auto weapons in stories about the semi auto ban, can you blame them?

No wonder the media reports that 70% favor the AWB. :roll:
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Post by Illuminatus Primus »

The AWB is the classic example of modern American disinformation and the failures of our democracy.
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Post by Gil Hamilton »

The AWB is stupid, but it has the unfortunate problem in politics that it has taken on a life of its own. Both sides have become really entrenched and goin either way will piss off half of everyone, so many politicians will stick with the status quo rather than get accusations levied at them from either direction or risk mobilizing the other side against them.

Personally, I wouldn't want what they call "an assault weapon", as I've got very little use for one (a handgun is just as good for home defense enough though my dogs are better and I'm going to use a purpose built hunting rifle for hunting), but I don't see why people shouldn't be able to own them. What I would do is make the penalties for using guns in an illegal manner vicious though and keep a ban on fully automatic weapons though. It likely won't stop anyone as a deterrent, as threat of severe punishment doesn't tend to work, but it will put people who do violate the law away for a very very long time.
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Post by Glocksman »

Illuminatus Primus wrote::( Howie we miss you.
No shit.
Dean may have supported the existing AWB, but he didn't want to expand it and otherwise wanted to leave the gun issue up to the states.

Howie wasn't the perfect candidate by any means, but I could have voted for him without holding my nose.
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Post by Glocksman »

What I would do is make the penalties for using guns in an illegal manner vicious though and keep a ban on fully automatic weapons though
Full autos aren't banned on the Federal level even though several states have their own bans.

You just have to pay a $200 tax and go through an incredible amount of paperwork to own one.
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Post by Gil Hamilton »

Glocksman wrote:Full autos aren't banned on the Federal level even though several states have their own bans.

You just have to pay a $200 tax and go through an incredible amount of paperwork to own one.
I thought full autos were illegal on a Federal level. Oh well, I'm not expert on the issue. I think my confusion comes from someone telling me that fully automatic weapons were illegal and I assumed it was federal, like the AWB, rather than on a state level (which I'm pretty sure it is).
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Post by Beowulf »

Gil Hamilton wrote:
Glocksman wrote:Full autos aren't banned on the Federal level even though several states have their own bans.

You just have to pay a $200 tax and go through an incredible amount of paperwork to own one.
I thought full autos were illegal on a Federal level. Oh well, I'm not expert on the issue. I think my confusion comes from someone telling me that fully automatic weapons were illegal and I assumed it was federal, like the AWB, rather than on a state level (which I'm pretty sure it is).
New manufacture of full autos for civilian sale is illegal on the Federal level. Everything on the market was made earlier than 1986.
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Post by 18-Till-I-Die »

Maybe i'm wrong, but to me i cant imagine why anyone would need an automatic weapon AT ALL. And no i don't think people should be allowed to own them either. We have enough crime where i live, people getting killed over things as trival as a peice of chcken (i kid you not, it actually happened here, while ago), and that's with semi-auto weapons, handguns. So i really would resent some gun fanatics passing a law that says any two bit gun slinger can get his mits on a fucking assualt weapon. It's not that i think people shouldnt own guns. My mom owns several rifles, shotguns and pistols (mostly because she was stalked by my psycho dad for years). But i think that there should be a LIMIT as to what a person is allowed to own.

Now dont everyone jump down my throat about 'rights to bear arms' and such, i have a right too, to not have to live in terror of psychpaths flooding the streets with automatic weapons, mmkay. Sorry if it bursts your bubble, but most people here who want to buy assault weapons are criminals who, gasp, want to kill people with them. Not hunters, not collectors, and not people defending tehir homes. A few are, of course, but honestly how many normal, non-criminal folks would really want an automatic rifle? It's not a toy, it's a killing machine, and most killing machines, unfortunately, are extremely proficient in tehir function.

Now i'm not for expanding the AWB. Not at all. All i ask is that people not give criminals carte blanche to buy the most deadly small arms they can find. They're bad enough with handguns and such.

So to conclude this: AWB isnt stupid, it's at least nessecary, probably very much so. I'm not for expanding it or banning guns entirely, but limited what people can get their hands on will make me and a lot of the general public feel safer. Mind you this is just my opinion and an observation based on watching the news, gangs, etc. If anyone has a better idea, i'm open to it, but assault weapons are dangerous are from my perspective should be either extremely expensive so that most average citizens and gang bngers cant buy them, or illegal.
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Post by muse »

You know, there's this thing called a full background check and filling out more forms in triplicate than you can imagine and then jumping through a bunch of hoops before you can legally buy an automatic weapon...

Your local crack dealer or gang-banger doesn't meet these requirements.
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Post by Beowulf »

Oh, and don't forget that because of 1986 ban on new manufacture of automatic weapons, they current going price for them is at least several thousand dollars. I recall seeing a pair of MP5s with a price tag on them of $10,000.

And you can kill someone just as easily with a single shot pistol as with a rifle. More easily, in fact if they are fairly close.
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Post by Gil Hamilton »

Beowulf wrote:And you can kill someone just as easily with a single shot pistol as with a rifle. More easily, in fact if they are fairly close.
You also can't keep a rifle under your jacket in a holster. Handguns are really easy to conceal, which makes them much more likely to be used in a violent crime.
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