STGOD 4 OOC Thread (part 2)

Pablo Sanchez · Post by **Pablo Sanchez** » 2004-09-11 05:27pm

Rogue 9 wrote:They're declared, down under Nashtari Aerospace Force.

Okay, good.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-09-11 05:36pm

Bugsby wrote:
Rogue 9 wrote:Yes, well I'm no big fan of having my battle fleets gutted in the first thirty seconds of the engagement. Kinda sucks, y'know?
That's fair. That's why tactically I can only maximize effectiveness by getting into knife-fight range with these things, leaving my ships WAY exposed. Also, because it takes time to close distance (if I even can), it takes a long time before I can get a clean shot off. And remember, you get to call damage.

That's better. Okay.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2004-09-11 05:48pm

I still have a problem because there's no way in hell to combat the fact that he's got thousands of fighters and bombers, every bit as tough as those on his carriers. It's literally impossible for any sort of fleet to crack those sort of numbers. But if the number stand, I fully plan on them being so much bait for proper escort vessels.

Now if he wishes to include that level of fighter protection as native to the planet, that's fine but I think they ought to be ruled in line with those numbers.

Who opened up? I launched missiles. Fine, I'll scale back the minefield. I just dumped every mine in the magazines, but if you
insist...

You may have, I just have a problem with the notion that a minefield that's of any use at all could be layed in a mere ten minutes, especially over such a large volume. The sheer amount of space there means that it would be almost impossible to position a 15 minute minefield with sufficient density to be worthwhile.

In short, it's a nuisance, nothing more.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-09-11 05:52pm

Okay, I cut the minefield to a fourth of it's previous size (meaning those destroyers still have a shitload of mines to lay) and quantified the planetary based fighters to 120 squadrons, all types including jamming and AWACS birds. That satisfactory?

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2004-09-11 06:10pm

For those who can't see it, the Nashtari Aerospace Declaration.

Aerospace Force

The Nashtari Aerospace Force (NAF) uses most of the same combat aerospace fighters and bombers as RSC naval aviation. With hundreds of planet and moon based fighter wings fielding well over a hundred squadrons at every core world, the NAF provides quite an effective backup for the RSC in defending Nashtari space. Additionally, the NAF fields many wings of hyperspace-capable F/A-210s and B-95s, as well as the hyperdrive-equipped A-127H, which is not in general use by the Republic Space Command. (As the A-127, only hyperspace capable; see the A-127 entry under Naval Forces.)

The NAF’s combat squadrons include 700 squadrons of F-235s, 400 squadrons of A-127 standards (A through G models), 400 squadrons of A-127Hs, 500 squadrons of B-95s, 600 squadrons of F-250s, 600 squadrons of F/A-210s, 200 squadrons of E-50s, and 150 squadrons of E-45s. In addition, the Aerospace Lift Command, the cargo hauling division, consists of many groups of C-420s, C-340s (non-combat airlift haulers), and other cargo aerospace craft.

My only concern is this apparently grants thousands of high end fighters for zero drop in any other branch of the military, which smells vaguely like cheese from here.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-09-11 06:19pm

Net zero drop? I haven't exactly been pumping out ships like mad here. Actually, I think my navy might just be the smallest of any power that started out at full strength. What do you think the industrial capacity Stormbringer wants to bombard has been doing all this time?

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2004-09-11 06:31pm

Rogue 9 wrote:Net zero drop? I haven't exactly been pumping out ships like mad here. Actually, I think my navy might just be the smallest of any power that started out at full strength. What do you think the industrial capacity Stormbringer wants to bombard has been doing all this time?

Mea culpa. On examination you do have quite a small navy(Just oodles bigger than my declared force..).

Marcao · Post by **Marcao** » 2004-09-11 06:42pm

Personally, I have no real problem with the Nashtari Air Command fielding thousands of fighters for a few reasons. The first, has already been touched upon. The Nashtar have not been building many ships, so it is very believable that they have been bolstering their planet-side air force. Furthermore, according to the information here. The ACC can field around 1750 planes, and that is not a unified planetary government preparing/fearing war.

Linky

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-09-11 07:03pm

Also: In light of recent discussion on how long it takes to build DNs, might I revise the 7 month drydock time I estimated for the Gladius down a bit? I named that time under the assumption that it would take considerably longer to build a capital ship, and since the official time has been revised down a bit, I should probably revise repair times down proportionately.

Pablo Sanchez · Post by **Pablo Sanchez** » 2004-09-11 07:25pm

Rogue 9 wrote:Also: In light of recent discussion on how long it takes to build DNs, might I revise the 7 month drydock time I estimated for the Gladius down a bit? I named that time under the assumption that it would take considerably longer to build a capital ship, and since the official time has been revised down a bit, I should probably revise repair times down proportionately.

We'll just say that you quickly finished the repairs when the tensions started up again.

Post by **Beowulf** » 2004-09-11 07:36pm

Rogue 9 wrote:Okay, I cut the minefield to a fourth of it's previous size (meaning those destroyers still have a shitload of mines to lay) and quantified the planetary based fighters to 120 squadrons, all types including jamming and AWACS birds. That satisfactory?

I call bullshit on you knowing which spots the fleet would come out. 20 min is a long ass time, and a small error in direction at the distance you figured that out at would have massive differences in position. To quote Nitram "Space is big."

Hotfoot · Post by **Hotfoot** » 2004-09-11 07:39pm

One thing I would like to point out, what with all of the destroying of shipyards and national industries and such, is that if you plan on taking a planet or a system it's best to do so with the centers of industry relatively intact. If you annihilate an enemy shipyard complex, you'll have to spend a considerable amount of time rebuilding it before you can add it to your total industrial power.

If you have to rebuilt an entire planet's industry from scratch, you are little better off than if you had just moved in to an uninhabited planet with your own people and materials and started from scratch.

The spoils of conquest only matter if you:
A: manage to find massive raw materials in the lands of your enemies (available all over the place, I should mention))
B: if you capture their industries largely intact
or
C: you wipe out a race that would stop at nothing to kill you dead.

Something to consider. The more damage you do, the less valuable the worlds are.

Bugsby · Post by **Bugsby** » 2004-09-11 07:41pm

Not necessarily. The thing is, space is big, but you can only come at a world from another world along one vector (give or take fractions of a degree). You know what direction the person is coming from as long as you can get a starting point and an ending point. That's basic geometry. I did the same thing over Brethis. I used my intel to find where Aly's ships are, and thus where they must be coming from, and set defensive screens in that direction to be ready when he came out of hyperspace. Rogue can do the same thing with mines, although the effectiveness in "big space" can be called into question. Storm is the one who gets to call damage on that.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-09-11 07:43pm

Hotfoot wrote:One thing I would like to point out, what with all of the destroying of shipyards and national industries and such, is that if you plan on taking a planet or a system it's best to do so with the centers of industry relatively intact. If you annihilate an enemy shipyard complex, you'll have to spend a considerable amount of time rebuilding it before you can add it to your total industrial power.

If you have to rebuilt an entire planet's industry from scratch, you are little better off than if you had just moved in to an uninhabited planet with your own people and materials and started from scratch.

The spoils of conquest only matter if you:
A: manage to find massive raw materials in the lands of your enemies (available all over the place, I should mention))
B: if you capture their industries largely intact
or
C: you wipe out a race that would stop at nothing to kill you dead.

Something to consider. The more damage you do, the less valuable the worlds are.

Unless, of course, he doesn't intend to conquer me. Which, I'll add, I do not intend to make as easy as Laz or Tycho did. I'm not going to fold just because I've been attacked.

Hotfoot · Post by **Hotfoot** » 2004-09-11 07:44pm

Rogue 9 wrote:Unless, of course, he doesn't intend to conquer me. Which, I'll add, I do not intend to make as easy as Laz or Tycho did. I'm not going to fold just because I've been attacked.

There is much talk of conquest from some people at the moment. I'm merely pointing out that conquest is of little value if you must spend decades rebuilding industries, at the expense of your own industries and expansions.

Pablo Sanchez · Post by **Pablo Sanchez** » 2004-09-11 07:50pm

Hotfoot wrote:Something to consider. The more damage you do, the less valuable the worlds are.

You're thinking in terms of total war, whereas I think this is a more limited war than that. The Unification need not destroy all the Alliance worlds, they only have to inflict sufficient damage to the enemy fleets to give themselves strategic mastery, at which point they can bargain the peace treaty from a position of strength. They then annex those colonial planets which were not excessively damaged, and they collect war indemnities to make good the cost of the war.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-09-11 07:52pm

I have just four words to say to anyone with any designs upon conquest in the Republic: Live free or die.

Hotfoot · Post by **Hotfoot** » 2004-09-11 07:57pm

Pablo Sanchez wrote:
Hotfoot wrote:Something to consider. The more damage you do, the less valuable the worlds are.
You're thinking in terms of total war, whereas I think this is a more limited war than that. The Unification need not destroy all the Alliance worlds, they only have to inflict sufficient damage to the enemy fleets to give themselves strategic mastery, at which point they can bargain the peace treaty from a position of strength. They then annex those colonial planets which were not excessively damaged, and they collect war indemnities to make good the cost of the war.

Right now, major shipyards are being attacked. That hurts a considerable amount. Homeworld systems are being assaulted. Once again, that hurts. Colonies aren't much good for building up ships as I understand it, as they have limited industries compared to the major worlds. Sure, grabbing fully developed colonies is nice, but it all depends on how much damage is done to grab said colonies.

As I understand it, the primary draw of colonies is that they can supply the core worlds with precious raw materials for the homeworld industries to use in building things. Sure, they can build some things themselves, maybe some escorts, cruisers at most perhaps, fighters, missiles, and so on, but the big fun comes when you take core planets, which right now are getting targeted for industrial kneecapping at least by some powers.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2004-09-11 07:58pm

One must also consider this point: If one power can demonstrate it can swiftly, unstoppably crush another power's infrastructure without reprisal, there is obscene leverage in negotiating a surrender. One can prattle about 'fighting to the bitter end' but if someone can find a way to hit you hard and without you being able to effectively respond, he can sue for peace with whatever terms he wants.

Bugsby · Post by **Bugsby** » 2004-09-11 07:58pm

Rogue 9 wrote:I have just four words to say to anyone with any designs upon conquest in the Republic: Live free or die.

I respect that philosophy, but look at it practically. If the Unification destroys your entire fleet and sits over your worlds with guns pointed down and says "surrender to us or we will nuke you until you do surrender," you're going to surrender.

Pablo Sanchez · Post by **Pablo Sanchez** » 2004-09-11 07:58pm

Rogue 9 wrote:I have just four words to say to anyone with any designs upon conquest in the Republic: Live free or die.

Nice rhetoric. But try reading up on the immediate post-war history of Ostprussen and Manchuria; two good examples of how the Soviets got what they wanted from those territories with a minimum of fuss and muss.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-09-11 07:59pm

Bugsby wrote:
Rogue 9 wrote:I have just four words to say to anyone with any designs upon conquest in the Republic: Live free or die.
I respect that philosophy, but look at it practically. If the Unification destroys your entire fleet and sits over your worlds with guns pointed down and says "surrender to us or we will nuke you until you do surrender," you're going to surrender.

Oh yes, and immediately start an insurgency like you wouldn't believe. The Republic is predicated on self-determination. Take that away and... Well, we just won't let you take it away.

Bugsby · Post by **Bugsby** » 2004-09-11 08:02pm

Rogue 9 wrote:Oh yes, and immediately start an insurgency like you wouldn't believe. The Republic is predicated on self-determination. Take that away and... Well, we just won't let you take it away.

Oh, of course we won't! You will be perfectly free and happy! Your government will be free, your people will be unmolested! And we will be protecting you from everyone bad in the universe. And all your base are belong to us...

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-09-11 08:05pm

Bugsby wrote:
Rogue 9 wrote:Oh yes, and immediately start an insurgency like you wouldn't believe. The Republic is predicated on self-determination. Take that away and... Well, we just won't let you take it away.
Oh, of course we won't! You will be perfectly free and happy! Your government will be free, your people will be unmolested! And we will be protecting you from everyone bad in the universe. And all your base are belong to us...

*Chuckle* You, Bugsby? You with your Lance cruisers? Do you know how incredibly vulnerable to my setup those things are, now that I've gotten their functions straight in my head?

Bugsby · Post by **Bugsby** » 2004-09-11 08:07pm

Rogue 9 wrote:*Chuckle* You, Bugsby? You with your Lance cruisers? Do you know how incredibly vulnerable to my setup those things are, now that I've gotten their functions straight in my head?

Memo to self: avoid Rogue like the PLAGUE.