STGOD 4 OOC Thread (part 2)

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-09-11 08:09pm

Question: We've been treating capital ships as slower in hyperspace than escorts, correct? Where in the FTL speed scale to hyperspace-capable fighters and bombers come in?

Edit: Also, what about transit time between the Republic and Draconis space?

Bugsby · Post by **Bugsby** » 2004-09-11 08:10pm

About twice as fast, I think.

Post by **Beowulf** » 2004-09-11 08:36pm

Bugsby wrote:Not necessarily. The thing is, space is big, but you can only come at a world from another world along one vector (give or take fractions of a degree). You know what direction the person is coming from as long as you can get a starting point and an ending point. That's basic geometry. I did the same thing over Brethis. I used my intel to find where Aly's ships are, and thus where they must be coming from, and set defensive screens in that direction to be ready when he came out of hyperspace. Rogue can do the same thing with mines, although the effectiveness in "big space" can be called into question. Storm is the one who gets to call damage on that.

Yes, you used your sensors to tell which direction that Aly's ships were coming in on. How ever, it requires less than 5 minutes to reshuffle your strike group around to defend, and even then, you can do it such that you can cover quite a significant section of space that he could emerge from.

Mines aren't mobile. At 20 minutes of range, there must only be an error of 7 seconds of arc to generate a final position error of 300,000 km. Plus, given the fact that you don't actually want to stop at the hyperspace limit, because that gives bad effects in some hyperdrives, ranging from coming out right now, to complete destruction of a ship. To generate the same 300,000 km error in position, you'd need only vary your emergance time by 14 microseconds. Given that 1 light second is out of plausible mine range, minefields aren't usable as a protective measure, unless you have a fucking chokepoint, or have them around a fixed point. Note: chokepoints, generally speaking, do not exist. And to figure this out is simple trig.

And fighters can't really go faster than 16 ly/hr on average, because that's the speed of a dedicated courier ship.

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2004-09-11 08:36pm

Oh and straha, read my OOB we didnt turn our backs to you, we turned out port side to you.

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2004-09-11 08:39pm

Bugsby, your bit on geometry only applies if we use a straight shot FTL system, which we dont.

Bugsby · Post by **Bugsby** » 2004-09-11 09:08pm

No problems so far, but I think you are over-estimating the amount of damage that your planet-based defenses will do. Keep in mind, we are very far away from the planet. We are outside the shield, and you specified that the shield was big enough to cover all your defensive satelites. That means that each shot from the ground will have to go thousands of miles up, through the distortions of the upper atmosphere, through a high-density energy shield, and hit the targets. Not to say that you won't be doing damage, but dreadnaughts CAN take sustained fire from a planet for a long time.

Recall the Rape. Earth is(was) the most heavily armed/armored planet in the galaxy and even those defenses did shit against the Overseer. Planetary defenses help stack the odds, but it takes a fleet to destroy a fleet.

Also, because of our distance from the planet, you are NOT going to get fire from both hemispheres on the ships. Monacora opened itself up to a little more fire, but not three hundred new batteries. Like it or not, you will have to pick your targets.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-09-11 09:10pm

Bugsby wrote:Recall the Rape. Earth is(was) the most heavily armed/armored planet in the galaxy and even those defenses did shit against the Overseer. Planetary defenses help stack the odds, but it takes a fleet to destroy a fleet.

No, it really wasn't, or at least you're the only one to ever post that estimation to my knowledge. Thirdfain acknowledged Pinnacle as the strongest fortress world in Known Space a while back, though in the same breath he said it wouldn't matter...

Bugsby · Post by **Bugsby** » 2004-09-11 09:12pm

Rogue 9 wrote:
Bugsby wrote:Recall the Rape. Earth is(was) the most heavily armed/armored planet in the galaxy and even those defenses did shit against the Overseer. Planetary defenses help stack the odds, but it takes a fleet to destroy a fleet.
No, it really wasn't, or at least you're the only one to ever post that estimation to my knowledge. Thirdfain acknowledged Pinnacle as the strongest fortress world in Known Space a while back, though in the same breath he said it wouldn't matter...

That's true, maybe I was making an assumption there... it is EARTH for cryin out loud. But I'd say that Earth has(had) more defense than Brethis, the fifth largest world in the Draconis empire.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2004-09-11 09:15pm

Rogue 9 wrote:
Bugsby wrote:Recall the Rape. Earth is(was) the most heavily armed/armored planet in the galaxy and even those defenses did shit against the Overseer. Planetary defenses help stack the odds, but it takes a fleet to destroy a fleet.
No, it really wasn't, or at least you're the only one to ever post that estimation to my knowledge. Thirdfain acknowledged Pinnacle as the strongest fortress world in Known Space a while back, though in the same breath he said it wouldn't matter...

The point you miss is that fortresses are an obselete concept.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-09-11 09:16pm

SirNitram wrote:
Rogue 9 wrote:
Bugsby wrote:Recall the Rape. Earth is(was) the most heavily armed/armored planet in the galaxy and even those defenses did shit against the Overseer. Planetary defenses help stack the odds, but it takes a fleet to destroy a fleet.
No, it really wasn't, or at least you're the only one to ever post that estimation to my knowledge. Thirdfain acknowledged Pinnacle as the strongest fortress world in Known Space a while back, though in the same breath he said it wouldn't matter...
The point you miss is that fortresses are an obselete concept.

I know that. The thing that makes Pinnacle strong is the fleet based there.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2004-09-11 09:17pm

Rogue 9 wrote: The point you miss is that fortresses are an obselete concept.

I know that. The thing that makes Pinnacle strong is the fleet based there.[/quote]

You are in serious need of Sun Tzu.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-09-11 09:19pm

SirNitram wrote:
Rogue 9 wrote: The point you miss is that fortresses are an obselete concept.
I know that. The thing that makes Pinnacle strong is the fleet based there.

You are in serious need of Sun Tzu.[/quote]
The Art of War? Read, was bored out of my skull. Now then, look at the first few pages of the STGOD. What was the second offensive move in the game? Now tell me, how did it go for the one who made it?

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2004-09-11 09:22pm

Rogue 9 wrote:
SirNitram wrote:
Rogue 9 wrote: I know that. The thing that makes Pinnacle strong is the fleet based there.
You are in serious need of Sun Tzu.
The Art of War? Read, was bored out of my skull. Now then, look at the first few pages of the STGOD. What was the second offensive move in the game? Now tell me, how did it go for the one who made it?

I will leave you to this mindless penis waving. Just try to stop boasting about Pinnacle whenever someone talks about defenses. It encourages people to defeat it without firing a shot, and I don't feel like suffering through the complaints that would make.

Thirdfain · Post by **Thirdfain** » 2004-09-11 09:43pm

Alarms rang across the Talathrant System. The signatures were unmistakable- no other vessel in space projected the vivid hyperspace kinetic plumes which were the trademark of the Kincaid drive. In the Talathrant military control rooms, Sixtra officers scurried this way and that, opening up lines to the command centers, blaring alarms, and alerting the fleets. The duty officer’s mouth hung open- there were so many, and they were moving so fast.

The Black Ships have come for us at last. They bring no mercy, no compassion- just hard, violent retribution.

Their general vectors began to appear on the long-range sensors. Jamming ensured that the White Sun’s computers could provide their masters only with cones of probability rather than concrete data on where the Ouster fleet was headed. There were two certainties- the Black Ships were incoming from above the ecliptic, and were dead-set on the world of Talathrant herself.

Rogue, about your calculating the arrival point of the Asgard ships- How the hell did you do that? It's been established that the Early Warning nets can't give a perfect lock on incoming vessels. You'll get a cone of probability many hundreds of thousands of kilometers in diameter. Mining this will not be easy.

Thirdfain · Post by **Thirdfain** » 2004-09-11 09:53pm

*Chuckle* You, Bugsby? You with your Lance cruisers? Do you know how incredibly vulnerable to my setup those things are, now that I've gotten their functions straight in my head?

My set-up, on the other hand, is perfect for dueling with you. I'll see you as soon a possible, good sir.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-09-11 09:56pm

Thirdfain wrote:
*Chuckle* You, Bugsby? You with your Lance cruisers? Do you know how incredibly vulnerable to my setup those things are, now that I've gotten their functions straight in my head?
My set-up, on the other hand, is perfect for dueling with you. I'll see you as soon a possible, good sir.

Well yeah, having your opponent massively outnumbered tends to be so.

Thirdfain · Post by **Thirdfain** » 2004-09-11 10:00pm

Well yeah, having your opponent massively outnumbered tends to be so.

Actually, I only have 2 more Dreadnought hulls than you do- but my capships are individually more powerful.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-09-11 10:04pm

Marcao, Hotfoot? Got ambassadors wanting to speak to each of you still.

Now then, I'm going to go get that free pizza that Pizza Hut's giving me for screwing up my order last week. Be back in an hour or so.

Bugsby · Post by **Bugsby** » 2004-09-11 11:36pm

It's MATH TIME! Take a look at the galaxy map. Hotfoot made it. It's very pretty.

It was decided that fleet transit from one side of the circle to the other takes 4 days. Now, count the hexes from one side to the other. 16. Simple math time. If it takes 4 days to travel 16 hexes, how long does it take to travel 4 hexes? 1 day. Now, look at the distance between Draconis central worlds and Nashtar. It's tough to say exactly, but that's about 4 hexes. Although the central worlds are a bit farther apart then each of the worlds markes, so let's say that's 2.5 hexes away, or something close to that, keeping in mind that the edges of the ciricals are outlying colonies and political claims, as well as the fact that Straha and I attacked the world closest to the Krell side of Draconis territory, and thus farthest from Nashtar. To give the biggest benefit of the doubt, we say Nashtar is 2 hexes away.

If a normal fleet can travel 4 hexes in 24 hours, how long does it take to travel 2 hexes? 12 hours. And if fighters moving by themselves go 2 times as fast as a normal fleet, how long does it take to move 2 hexes? 6 hours.

It took Alyrium 1 hour to get his fleet to where we are. The battle has been going on for maybe 10 or 15 minutes, TOPS.

Carry the 3.... account for drag.... factor in compouned interest.....

Rogue, your ships don't show up for at least another 4 hours. And its probably closer to twice that.

Hotfoot · Post by **Hotfoot** » 2004-09-11 11:42pm

Bugsby wrote:It's MATH TIME! Take a look at the galaxy map. Hotfoot made it. It's very pretty.

It was decided that fleet transit from one side of the circle to the other takes 4 days.

Seven, actually. It's roughly one week from one end of the sphere to the other. At least for the heaviest warships. Four days may be a good estimate for a cruiser or escort group though.

Meanwhile, the circles around the "center" worlds are not exactly meant to be to scale, but rather to look pretty. The Consortium is NOT actually that big, it's pretty dense, actually. I imagine most national boundaries are, at most, 100ly in radius (and thus 200ly in diameter).

(yes, it is, by the way, quite easy to get 25 Class G Main Sequence stars inside of a 100ly radius. You could, in fact, probably do it very easily inside a 50ly radius).

But, please, carry on.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-09-11 11:43pm

Wait, that battle's been going on since yesterday real time. How long has it been in game?

Bugsby · Post by **Bugsby** » 2004-09-11 11:47pm

Rogue 9 wrote:Wait, that battle's been going on since yesterday real time. How long has it been in game?

Not too long. Most of the time was spent waiting for Aly to post his ships moving into system. It's been about 10 minutes in, we've all positioned ourselves and formed up, thats it. No real casualties as of yet, although that's about to change. That's the funny thing about battles. Thirdfain has been in White Sun territory for maybe a day just because battle posting takes so long.

Post by **Beowulf** » 2004-09-11 11:52pm

Thus we see the highly variable nature of STGOD time. 1 day real time = 10 min - 1 month STGOD.

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2004-09-12 12:26am

his fighters are also moving twice as fast as his destroyer screen I wager, a fleet is onlyas fast as its slowest member, he just got rid of the slow ones. We have plenty of precedent for that in game. What takes me an hour with my dreadnoughts, could easily take a much much faster ship 20 minutes(difference between a fighter Jet at full throttle and a massive passenger jet)

Bugsby · Post by **Bugsby** » 2004-09-12 12:30am

Alyrium Denryle wrote:his fighters are also moving twice as fast as his destroyer screen I wager, a fleet is onlyas fast as its slowest member, he just got rid of the slow ones. We have plenty of precedent for that in game. What takes me an hour with my dreadnoughts, could easily take a much much faster ship 20 minutes(difference between a fighter Jet at full throttle and a massive passenger jet)

I know. That's in the math. He is moving much faster than a normal fleet. The problem is that, even as fast as he is moving, he's too far away. I said he should be about 4-6 hours away, assuming that it's 4 days from one end of the galaxy to the other. Then Hotfoot pointed out that he created the map so it would be a week from one side to the other. Meaning it takes that much longer. He's movin real fast, but he's got a LONG way to go.

"Space is big."