Russia moves closer to US in wake of attacks...
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Russia moves closer to US in wake of attacks...
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Ivanov: Russia to Revamp Security, Seek Cooperation
By Sonia Oxley
MOSCOW (Reuters) - Russia will revamp its security forces and seek international cooperation to hunt militants in the wake of a school siege which killed more than 300 people nine days ago, Defense Minister Sergei Ivanov said Sunday.
Ivanov said the overhaul will require a change of attitude among the Russian people and international support to succeed in a fight against Chechen militants who killed at least 327 hostages -- half of them children -- at a school on Sept. 3 and have also been blamed for two airplane crashes in August.
"This demands the reform of security services -- not just the defense ministry -- and a greater concentration of efforts," Ivanov told NTV television.
Russian President Vladimir Putin -- a former KGB spy -- said last week Russia's security services "displayed weakness" and demanded they and the police in the North Ossetia region where the school siege took place undergo a drastic shake-up.
Ivanov did not outline specific reforms, but his comments coincide with opinion polls showing Russians have little faith in their corrupt security services and accuse them of failing to prevent the latest attacks in Russia that have been blamed on radical Chechen rebels seeking independence for their homeland.
Following the siege and the suspected double suicide bombing of two airliners, the government has vowed to clamp down on the Chechen rebels it blames for the attacks.
Ivanov said the restructuring of the domestic security force went hand-in-hand with the targeting of rebel bases that a top general has said lie in countries bordering Russia and that Russian forces were prepared to strike.
"This inevitably involves changing the way people think as they are not ready for such threats and challenges," the defense minister said.
TALKS WITH RUMSFELD
He said international cooperation was vital if Russia was to stamp out the threat of terrorism.
"Since the threat has an international character it is impossible for one state, no matter how strong it is, to beat that invisible enemy without cooperation," he said.
He added that the United States was best placed to understand Russia's situation because it had also been the target of major attacks, and he said he had discussed the issue with Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld twice this week.
"In this sense it seems easier to find grounds for an understanding with the United States than with some European states," Ivanov said.
France and the Netherlands angered Russia by asking for an explanation of what had happened at the school siege in the North Ossetian town of Beslan, where children, women, men and their captors died in a maelstrom of explosions and gunfire.
Russia has not specified where it believes the militants have their bases, but analysts believe the Kremlin sees neighboring Georgia as the main suspect for harboring rebels.
Ivanov said any strikes on bases would be without warning and would use any means except nuclear weapons.
"In war -- and war has been declared on us -- all means can be used," he said.
© Reuters 2004. All Rights Reserved.
******************************************
So does this mean that the Guards Tank Armies will be practicing with
CENTCOM?
Ivanov: Russia to Revamp Security, Seek Cooperation
By Sonia Oxley
MOSCOW (Reuters) - Russia will revamp its security forces and seek international cooperation to hunt militants in the wake of a school siege which killed more than 300 people nine days ago, Defense Minister Sergei Ivanov said Sunday.
Ivanov said the overhaul will require a change of attitude among the Russian people and international support to succeed in a fight against Chechen militants who killed at least 327 hostages -- half of them children -- at a school on Sept. 3 and have also been blamed for two airplane crashes in August.
"This demands the reform of security services -- not just the defense ministry -- and a greater concentration of efforts," Ivanov told NTV television.
Russian President Vladimir Putin -- a former KGB spy -- said last week Russia's security services "displayed weakness" and demanded they and the police in the North Ossetia region where the school siege took place undergo a drastic shake-up.
Ivanov did not outline specific reforms, but his comments coincide with opinion polls showing Russians have little faith in their corrupt security services and accuse them of failing to prevent the latest attacks in Russia that have been blamed on radical Chechen rebels seeking independence for their homeland.
Following the siege and the suspected double suicide bombing of two airliners, the government has vowed to clamp down on the Chechen rebels it blames for the attacks.
Ivanov said the restructuring of the domestic security force went hand-in-hand with the targeting of rebel bases that a top general has said lie in countries bordering Russia and that Russian forces were prepared to strike.
"This inevitably involves changing the way people think as they are not ready for such threats and challenges," the defense minister said.
TALKS WITH RUMSFELD
He said international cooperation was vital if Russia was to stamp out the threat of terrorism.
"Since the threat has an international character it is impossible for one state, no matter how strong it is, to beat that invisible enemy without cooperation," he said.
He added that the United States was best placed to understand Russia's situation because it had also been the target of major attacks, and he said he had discussed the issue with Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld twice this week.
"In this sense it seems easier to find grounds for an understanding with the United States than with some European states," Ivanov said.
France and the Netherlands angered Russia by asking for an explanation of what had happened at the school siege in the North Ossetian town of Beslan, where children, women, men and their captors died in a maelstrom of explosions and gunfire.
Russia has not specified where it believes the militants have their bases, but analysts believe the Kremlin sees neighboring Georgia as the main suspect for harboring rebels.
Ivanov said any strikes on bases would be without warning and would use any means except nuclear weapons.
"In war -- and war has been declared on us -- all means can be used," he said.
© Reuters 2004. All Rights Reserved.
******************************************
So does this mean that the Guards Tank Armies will be practicing with
CENTCOM?
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I think the questions that were raised by some European countries came far too fast and I understand that the Russians became angered and saddened by them.
While I'm glad to see the two former enemies finding more common ground, I would have hoped that it was shared by other more positive things than terrorism.
While I'm glad to see the two former enemies finding more common ground, I would have hoped that it was shared by other more positive things than terrorism.
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The Russians don't need advice from Donald Rumsfeld; they already know how to abuse prisoners and botch an occupation.
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Snipe, snipe, jaded comment. That's par!Darth Wong wrote:The Russians don't need advice from Donald Rumsfeld; they already know how to abuse prisoners and botch an occupation.
Stuart: The only problem is, I'm losing track of which universe I'm in.
You kinda look like Jesus. With a lightsaber.- Peregrin Toker
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Spam, spam, useless personal attack. That's a warning!CaptainChewbacca wrote:Snipe, snipe, jaded comment. That's par!Darth Wong wrote:The Russians don't need advice from Donald Rumsfeld; they already know how to abuse prisoners and botch an occupation.
PS. Or perhaps you're just too much of a fucking idiot to recognize that the comment can be taken seriously, dumb-ass. What arcane knowledge of terrorism does Donald Rumsfeld have to offer the Russians? Or are they announcing this co-operation simply because they're looking for a political ally when they start pulling their dicks out?
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
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If you want to be taken seriously, do not frame your arguments in sarcastic jibes. You could say "Why is Don Rumsfeld advising Russia about terrorism when Russia has far more experience than we do?" and that would promote serious discussion, which I'm all for.
Stuart: The only problem is, I'm losing track of which universe I'm in.
You kinda look like Jesus. With a lightsaber.- Peregrin Toker
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Why, so you don't have to rub two brain cells together and figure out the meaning? I understand him just fine, and I'm tired of threads devolving into "Wong used style over substance!" arguments...CaptainChewbacca wrote:If you want to be taken seriously, do not frame your arguments in sarcastic jibes.
"Man's unfailing capacity to believe what he prefers to be true rather than what the evidence shows to be likely and possible has always astounded me...God has not been proven not to exist, therefore he must exist." -- Academician Prokhor Zakharov
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Sorry, I'll refrain from doing so in the future, then.StarshipTitanic wrote:Why, so you don't have to rub two brain cells together and figure out the meaning? I understand him just fine, and I'm tired of threads devolving into "Wong used style over substance!" arguments...CaptainChewbacca wrote:If you want to be taken seriously, do not frame your arguments in sarcastic jibes.
Back to thread, I'd wager there will be an "information exchange" between America and the Sovi...Russians;). We can teach them the high-tech end of things and they can show us the mud-work.
Stuart: The only problem is, I'm losing track of which universe I'm in.
You kinda look like Jesus. With a lightsaber.- Peregrin Toker
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Perhaps how to kill shitloads of Islamofascists with your forces withoutDarth Wong wrote:What arcane knowledge of terrorism does Donald Rumsfeld have to offer the Russians?
levelling the entire fucken city in the process..
Seriously, both the US and Russia can help each other immensely in
combatting terrorism; the US teaching Russia that not every problem
need be solved with a 20 pound sledge, and the Russians for teaching
us that some problems only can be solved with a 20 pound sledge.
"If scientists and inventors who develop disease cures and useful technologies don't get lifetime royalties, I'd like to know what fucking rationale you have for some guy getting lifetime royalties for writing an episode of Full House." - Mike Wong
"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
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Why the fuck should he spoon-feed you for?CaptainChewbacca wrote:If you want to be taken seriously, do not frame your arguments in sarcastic jibes. You could say "Why is Don Rumsfeld advising Russia about terrorism when Russia has far more experience than we do?" and that would promote serious discussion, which I'm all for.
"You know what the problem with Hollywood is. They make shit. Unbelievable. Unremarkable. Shit." - Gabriel Shear, Swordfish
"This statement, in its utterly clueless hubristic stupidity, cannot be improved upon. I merely quote it in admiration of its perfection." - Garibaldi in reply to an incredibly stupid post.
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"This statement, in its utterly clueless hubristic stupidity, cannot be improved upon. I merely quote it in admiration of its perfection." - Garibaldi in reply to an incredibly stupid post.
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I think Chewbacca is just put out by the negativity and implied bitterness in Wong's recent comments on terrorism.
Just as Knife (or, at least, I think it was Knife) was annoyed by the way this board needlessly stomped all over the Pope's efforts to preach to Canada because it was useless celebration of the general aversion - or even hostility - to religion.
Just as Knife (or, at least, I think it was Knife) was annoyed by the way this board needlessly stomped all over the Pope's efforts to preach to Canada because it was useless celebration of the general aversion - or even hostility - to religion.
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It's not as if "limited use of force will result in fewer civilian casualties" is some kind of advanced proprietary concept the Russians have no comprehension of until Donald Rumsfeld tells them.MKSheppard wrote:Perhaps how to kill shitloads of Islamofascists with your forces withoutDarth Wong wrote:What arcane knowledge of terrorism does Donald Rumsfeld have to offer the Russians?
levelling the entire fucken city in the process.
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
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Yes, opportunistic whiners usually do have a motivation. Doesn't change the fact that it's whining.Axis Kast wrote:I think Chewbacca is just put out by the negativity and implied bitterness in Wong's recent comments on terrorism.
If you don't like it, you are free to go to a board which is more friendly to organized religion.Just as Knife (or, at least, I think it was Knife) was annoyed by the way this board needlessly stomped all over the Pope's efforts to preach to Canada because it was useless celebration of the general aversion - or even hostility - to religion.
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
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He did? I don't recall all of his prophecies, but I'm pretty sure a wookiee will one day rule.Col. Crackpot wrote:OH! The unification of the eagle and the bear! nostradamus predicted this a the sign of the beginning of the battle to fight the 3rd great antichrist!
Let's all stop-name calling and stick to the thread topic whatsay? I already tried it once.
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The russians have no real operational experience in the limited useDarth Wong wrote: It's not as if "limited use of force will result in fewer civilian casualties" is some kind of advanced proprietary concept the Russians have no comprehension of until Donald Rumsfeld tells them.
of precision guided minutions. To them, "Limited use of force" is dropping
a Totcka IRBM onto the apartment building a Chechen leader is
using his cell phone from within.
"If scientists and inventors who develop disease cures and useful technologies don't get lifetime royalties, I'd like to know what fucking rationale you have for some guy getting lifetime royalties for writing an episode of Full House." - Mike Wong
"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
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Maybe we can get them to use smaller ICBMsMKSheppard wrote:The russians have no real operational experience in the limited useDarth Wong wrote: It's not as if "limited use of force will result in fewer civilian casualties" is some kind of advanced proprietary concept the Russians have no comprehension of until Donald Rumsfeld tells them.
of precision guided minutions. To them, "Limited use of force" is dropping
a Totcka IRBM onto the apartment building a Chechen leader is
using his cell phone from within.
Stuart: The only problem is, I'm losing track of which universe I'm in.
You kinda look like Jesus. With a lightsaber.- Peregrin Toker
You kinda look like Jesus. With a lightsaber.- Peregrin Toker
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so did some scifi authors. the codominium is coming.Col. Crackpot wrote:OH! The unification of the eagle and the bear! nostradamus predicted this a the sign of the beginning of the battle to fight the 3rd great antichrist!
This day is Fantastic!
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Intelligence derived outside of Russians sources, limited access to the premier signal interception network in the world, the ability to shut down worldwide "Islamic charities" that fund terrorists ...perhaps you're just too much of a fucking idiot to recognize that the comment can be taken seriously, dumb-ass. What arcane knowledge of terrorism does Donald Rumsfeld have to offer the Russians?
Likewise Russia has intelligence assets in the Islamic world that the US would love to tap, a much larger potential mole and infiltrator population ...
Not knowing how close cooperation was before at the highest levels, Russia might stand to gain substantially if the US is willing to share the fruits of its high tech toys and spy network or devote more of its intelligence efforts to supporting Russian counterterrorism. It is not just Rumsfeld, but everyone who works under him and the technology he controls that Russia would love to have working on their side (assuming it isn't already); Rumsfeld is just a convenient administrator.
Seriously if you wanted access to intelligence assets the US isn't sharing freely who would YOU talk to? My shortlist would definately would include Rumsfeld (and likely have Bush, Cheney, Powell, and Rice rounding out the top 5).
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Oh yes, the same intel network that has trouble finding people who speak the language and which told us that Iraq could strike the US in 45 minutes with WMD will now turn its fearsome All-Seeing Eye upon Chechnya. Forgive me, the genius of this move had not occurred to me.tharkûn wrote:Intelligence derived outside of Russians sources, limited access to the premier signal interception network in the world, the ability to shut down worldwide "Islamic charities" that fund terrorists ...perhaps you're just too much of a fucking idiot to recognize that the comment can be taken seriously, dumb-ass. What arcane knowledge of terrorism does Donald Rumsfeld have to offer the Russians?
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html