Borg's adaptation against raw energy weapons

[Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman]

I read in some ST vs SW fanfics that the Borg can adapt to Imperial weapons (to some extent), like in Conquest (Mike Wong) and Worlds Without End (Chuck Sonnenburg, IIRC).

Actually, the Borg's adaptation in those fanfics served well as plot device (After all, could we really write an *interesting* SW vs ST fanfics without being GENEROUS to Trek side?).

But I have a question: how do the Borg adapt against raw energy weapons? (turbolasers, howitzer shells, 120 mm SABOT rounds, blasters, assault rifle bullets, spears, etc)

I think the reason Borg can adapt to phasers/distruptors is because they are frequency-dependent weapons. So they can adapt by setting counter-frequency.

But how does it work against raw energy weapons, which are not frequency-dependent? I think the best "adaptation" by the Borg against raw power is to increase the power of their shield, making it sufficiently powerful to block the shots.

But in case of that, then there is nothing special about Borg adaptation against raw power. For that matter, Millenium Falcon can also "adapt" against turbolaser by diverting more power to their shields. Also, this kind of "adapting" is limited by the power available.

Since the Borg don't have UNLIMITED energy reserve, they too (cubes and drones alike), must divert more power to their shield in order to "adapt" against raw energy weapons , thus, draining power from other sub-systems.

So the point is: what's so special about Borg's adaptation against raw energy weapons?

[hvb]

Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman wrote:

(After all, could we really write an *interesting* SW vs ST fanfics without being GENEROUS to Trek side?).

A very good question
I would hope it is possible, if the plot does not rely on strength of arms. I am currently collecting data with a vague notion of writing a fanfic doing both these things (SW firepower >> ST firepower & not warfare based), while trying to explain a few seeming bloopers like the race/species thing in ST etc.
If I ever start writing it. It won't be for another 8 months at least.

[Master of Ossus]

Borg shields have never once been shown to adapt to physical, kinetic energy weapons. We had this debate with DarkStar, and he tried to do a section of his page on why we were wrong. In reality, we kicked his ass but he failed to acknowledge defeat.

Basically, the Borg have never been shown to adapt in any way to any KE weapons.

[Rightous Fist Of Heaven]

Or to simple raw power to that extent as ST:FC and the 8472 prove.

[Yogi]

Borg Shields use some sort of subspace barrier to stop the weapons. In essence, the energy is thrown into some other section of space. If weapons didn't use frequencies, then it would have a much harder time finding the "weak spot" in the shield. Saying that a brute force weapon would be better than one with a frequency would be like saying that a brute force try-all-combinations password guessing program would be less efficent than a sophisticated guessing program, since one can try to fool the sophisticated one, but one cannot fool the brute force one. The Worse Case for the sophisticated one IS the Brute Force one.

[Ghost Rider]

Brute Force seems to work perfectly fine ala First Contact...and hell I'm amazed the Feddies don't use KE weapons against the Borg.

Plus what need for 'weak spot'?!

I mean frequency based shielding is a weakness since it means find it...and viola there's your opening!

[Master of Ossus]

The Borg have repeatedly demonstrated an apparent inability to stop fists, knives (Mek'leth), bulkheads, and bullets. Now, the bullets MIGHT be excusable. Although the Borg have doubtless been fired on in the past, it is highly unlikely that they have been fired at with a Thompson sub-machine gun before. However, EVERYONE must have punched them or attacked them with knives. To believe that, in the thousands of worlds they've assimilated, no one has thrown a punch similar enough to the punches thrown in TNG for the Borg's mysterious KE shields to stop is ludicrous.

[Yogi]

Brute Force seems to work perfectly fine ala First Contact...

With the Federation knowing how the Borg fight, it would be safe to assume that every single ship was firing at a diffrent set of randomly rotating frequencies. That's why the Borg couldn't asapt to them all. That's also the same concept behind the Defiant's guns.

I mean frequency based shielding is a weakness since it means find it...and viola there's your opening!

The weak pointis not important, it the overall effectiveness.

Example: Spiderman vs. Superman. Spiderman has no weaknesses, but Superman is weak against Kryptonite. In most fights, Superman will do better than Spiderman. In fights involving Kryptonite, Spiderman will do better. Still, in most cases, Superman > Spiderman.

[SirNitram]

There is no mention anywhere in Canon of the Borg having 'subspace' defenses. Their defenses are repeatedly(The first incident in my mind is BOBW) described as frequency dependent. No frequency, no defenses for the Borg. Oh fucking well.

[Isolder74]

The Borg have repeatedly demonstrated an apparent inability to stop fists, knives (Mek'leth), bulkheads, and bullets. Now, the bullets MIGHT be excusable. Although the Borg have doubtless been fired on in the past, it is highly unlikely that they have been fired at with a Thompson sub-machine gun before. However, EVERYONE must have punched them or attacked them with knives. To believe that, in the thousands of worlds they've assimilated, no one has thrown a punch similar enough to the punches thrown in TNG for the Borg's mysterious KE shields to stop is ludicrous.

i agree and it is obvious from the Holobook scene that Picard KNEW this weakness in that he had to change the chapter in order to get to Lenni the Nose's Tommy Gun. Which brings up this question; Why didn't Picard order the replication of Tommy Guns and BAR's before they arrived in case the Borg were able to beam abourd the ship?

[Darth Balls]

Nobody ever accused Picard of being the sharpest knife in the drawer. Or the sharpest spoon for that matter.

[Darth Servo]

The Borg have repeatedly demonstrated an apparent inability to stop fists, knives (Mek'leth), bulkheads, and bullets. Now, the bullets MIGHT be excusable. Although the Borg have doubtless been fired on in the past, it is highly unlikely that they have been fired at with a Thompson sub-machine gun before. However, EVERYONE must have punched them or attacked them with knives. To believe that, in the thousands of worlds they've assimilated, no one has thrown a punch similar enough to the punches thrown in TNG for the Borg's mysterious KE shields to stop is ludicrous.

i agree and it is obvious from the Holobook scene that Picard KNEW this weakness in that he had to change the chapter in order to get to Lenni the Nose's Tommy Gun. Which brings up this question; Why didn't Picard order the replication of Tommy Guns and BAR's before they arrived in case the Borg were able to beam abourd the ship?

Probably the same reason they don't use projectile weapons in B5. You don't want to put holes in the walls of the ship.

[Darth Servo]

The Borg have repeatedly demonstrated an apparent inability to stop fists, knives (Mek'leth), bulkheads, and bullets. Now, the bullets MIGHT be excusable. Although the Borg have doubtless been fired on in the past, it is highly unlikely that they have been fired at with a Thompson sub-machine gun before. However, EVERYONE must have punched them or attacked them with knives. To believe that, in the thousands of worlds they've assimilated, no one has thrown a punch similar enough to the punches thrown in TNG for the Borg's mysterious KE shields to stop is ludicrous.

i agree and it is obvious from the Holobook scene that Picard KNEW this weakness in that he had to change the chapter in order to get to Lenni the Nose's Tommy Gun. Which brings up this question; Why didn't Picard order the replication of Tommy Guns and BAR's before they arrived in case the Borg were able to beam abourd the ship?

Probably the same reason they don't use projectile weapons in B5. You don't want to put holes in the walls of the ship.

[Isolder74]

The Borg have repeatedly demonstrated an apparent inability to stop fists, knives (Mek'leth), bulkheads, and bullets. Now, the bullets MIGHT be excusable. Although the Borg have doubtless been fired on in the past, it is highly unlikely that they have been fired at with a Thompson sub-machine gun before. However, EVERYONE must have punched them or attacked them with knives. To believe that, in the thousands of worlds they've assimilated, no one has thrown a punch similar enough to the punches thrown in TNG for the Borg's mysterious KE shields to stop is ludicrous.

i agree and it is obvious from the Holobook scene that Picard KNEW this weakness in that he had to change the chapter in order to get to Lenni the Nose's Tommy Gun. Which brings up this question; Why didn't Picard order the replication of Tommy Guns and BAR's before they arrived in case the Borg were able to beam abourd the ship?

Probably the same reason they don't use projectile weapons in B5. You don't want to put holes in the walls of the ship.

Is that better then have the ship assimilated by the borg? This is only a worry right next to the outer hull of the ship and if a bullet from a handheld weapon can blow holls in the outer hull of a starship then the Federation has major problems.

[Darth Servo]

Is that better then have the ship assimilated by the borg? This is only a worry right next to the outer hull of the ship and if a bullet from a handheld weapon can blow holls in the outer hull of a starship then the Federation has major problems.

Well we already knew that.

[Darth Servo]

Is that better then have the ship assimilated by the borg? This is only a worry right next to the outer hull of the ship and if a bullet from a handheld weapon can blow holls in the outer hull of a starship then the Federation has major problems.

I'll quote Mike from the Edam debate on this one:

Federation doors are so flimsy that a devolved Klingon can knock them down with his head

[Illuminatus Primus]

Borg Shields use some sort of subspace barrier to stop the weapons. In essence, the energy is thrown into some other section of space. If weapons didn't use frequencies, then it would have a much harder time finding the "weak spot" in the shield. Saying that a brute force weapon would be better than one with a frequency would be like saying that a brute force try-all-combinations password guessing program would be less efficent than a sophisticated guessing program, since one can try to fool the sophisticated one, but one cannot fool the brute force one. The Worse Case for the sophisticated one IS the Brute Force one.

What the fuck? This is a 100% irrelevent analogy. Do you mind explaining how "subspace barriers" described with no evidence relates to the forced decryption of data? Irrelevent bullshit and damn near red herring too.

Brute Force seems to work perfectly fine ala First Contact...

With the Federation knowing how the Borg fight, it would be safe to assume that every single ship was firing at a diffrent set of randomly rotating frequencies. That's why the Borg couldn't asapt to them all. That's also the same concept behind the Defiant's guns.

I mean frequency based shielding is a weakness since it means find it...and viola there's your opening!

The weak point is not important, it the overall effectiveness.

Example: Spiderman vs. Superman. Spiderman has no weaknesses, but Superman is weak against Kryptonite. In most fights, Superman will do better than Spiderman. In fights involving Kryptonite, Spiderman will do better. Still, in most cases, Superman > Spiderman.

Do you have a fetish for analogies that are complete horseshit with regards to the argument at hand?

The weak spot is the fact Trek shields are miserably ineffective since adjusting the weapon can pass right through the shields. The Imperial weapons are so overpowerful their adaptability is irrelevent against the gigatonage of the ISD's main guns.

[Master of Ossus]

The Borg have repeatedly demonstrated an apparent inability to stop fists, knives (Mek'leth), bulkheads, and bullets. Now, the bullets MIGHT be excusable. Although the Borg have doubtless been fired on in the past, it is highly unlikely that they have been fired at with a Thompson sub-machine gun before. However, EVERYONE must have punched them or attacked them with knives. To believe that, in the thousands of worlds they've assimilated, no one has thrown a punch similar enough to the punches thrown in TNG for the Borg's mysterious KE shields to stop is ludicrous.

i agree and it is obvious from the Holobook scene that Picard KNEW this weakness in that he had to change the chapter in order to get to Lenni the Nose's Tommy Gun. Which brings up this question; Why didn't Picard order the replication of Tommy Guns and BAR's before they arrived in case the Borg were able to beam abourd the ship?

Probably the same reason they don't use projectile weapons in B5. You don't want to put holes in the walls of the ship.

Um. No. In B5 they don't use projectile weapons because "They wanted a weapon that would knock someone down without leaving a flesh wound." PPG's are used on B5, instead of more powerful weapons, because of the risk of punching through the hull of the station. Further, the hull of a starship should EASILY be able to withstand projectile weapon fire from .45 rounds made of lead. A much more likely reason would be that the Enterprise-E does not have replicators large enough to manufacture projectile weapons like the Tommy gun.

[Isolder74]

i agree and it is obvious from the Holobook scene that Picard KNEW this weakness in that he had to change the chapter in order to get to Lenni the Nose's Tommy Gun. Which brings up this question; Why didn't Picard order the replication of Tommy Guns and BAR's before they arrived in case the Borg were able to beam abourd the ship?

Probably the same reason they don't use projectile weapons in B5. You don't want to put holes in the walls of the ship.

Um. No. In B5 they don't use projectile weapons because "They wanted a weapon that would knock someone down without leaving a flesh wound." PPG's are used on B5, instead of more powerful weapons, because of the risk of punching through the hull of the station. Further, the hull of a starship should EASILY be able to withstand projectile weapon fire from .45 rounds made of lead. A much more likely reason would be that the Enterprise-E does not have replicators large enough to manufacture projectile weapons like the Tommy gun.

Purhaps they could convert the holodeck into a giat replicator since in voyager when the holograms blew a holl into the outer wall the holograms could walk into the corridors of the ship and they were reaking havok.

[Master of Ossus]

Purhaps they could convert the holodeck into a giat replicator since in voyager when the holograms blew a holl into the outer wall the holograms could walk into the corridors of the ship and they were reaking havok.

You should be able to. We have many instances of ST objects existing outside of the holodeck. DarkStar, of course, refuted that assertion unsuccessfully.

[Shinova]

About Borgs being completely vulnerable to KE:


In Scorpion, when 8472 were blowing up that planet, several chunks of the planet flew out and smashed into the cube. Now, from what everyone else is saying, the cube should've been completely destroyed.

Can anyone explain this?

[Master of Ossus]

About Borgs being completely vulnerable to KE:


In Scorpion, when 8472 were blowing up that planet, several chunks of the planet flew out and smashed into the cube. Now, from what everyone else is saying, the cube should've been completely destroyed.

Can anyone explain this?

We are primarily concerning ourselves with Borg drones, but even the Borg drones' defenses (or lack thereof) do not MAGNIFY the damage done to them by physical weapons. They simply do not provide protection. Now, the cube has the natural protection of the tensile strength of the metal it is made out of, PLUS any armor that it has, PLUS the shields, which are designed to protect them against physical weapons (they have repeatedly been shown to be effective against some impactors). It would actually be inconsistent if the Borg ship was totally obliterated by a mere touch, because where would all that energy have come from? The point is not that the Borg TRY to destroy themselves, it is that they do nothing to try to prevent their own destruction. The rest of us were talking about Borg drones, but even if the Cube in Scorpion were not shielded, we would not expect the ship to be utterly obliterated by such an impact, at least until the warp core was damaged beyond repair.

[Darth Servo]

Um. No. In B5 they don't use projectile weapons because "They wanted a weapon that would knock someone down without leaving a flesh wound." PPG's are used on B5, instead of more powerful weapons, because of the risk of punching through the hull of the station.

OK, but that really wasn't the point.

Further, the hull of a starship should EASILY be able to withstand projectile weapon fire from .45 rounds made of lead. A much more likely reason would be that the Enterprise-E does not have replicators large enough to manufacture projectile weapons like the Tommy gun.

We need some numbers. Anyone?

[Isolder74]

About Borgs being completely vulnerable to KE:


In Scorpion, when 8472 were blowing up that planet, several chunks of the planet flew out and smashed into the cube. Now, from what everyone else is saying, the cube should've been completely destroyed.

Can anyone explain this?

At least 2 cubes where destroyed by the debris from the planet exploding. there where 3 but only one got away and it did not appear to get hit by anything.

[Master of Ossus]

Further, the hull of a starship should EASILY be able to withstand projectile weapon fire from .45 rounds made of lead. A much more likely reason would be that the Enterprise-E does not have replicators large enough to manufacture projectile weapons like the Tommy gun.

We need some numbers. Anyone?[/quote]

[Groan] I really don't see why we need any numbers. We should be able to assume that the hull of a starship can withstand a micrometeor impact, and that has much more KE than a .45 round. Further, the .45 round will deform, absorbing much of its own energy (assuming that the hull is made of sturdier stuff than lead, but it would almost have to be). Calculations are only necessary if something is close, and unless you are taking the unbelievably stupid position that a micrometeor is less energetic than a bullet, I don't really see the need to look up the muzzle velocity and mass of a .45 fired from a Thompson.