STGOD 4 OOC Thread (part 2)

[Rogue 9]

That's the beauty of Kincaid weapons- as far as they are concerned, your carriers are standing still.

That's the beauty of E-45s. They're just as jammed no matter what speed they're moving at. This salvo is not going to kill all my carriers, certainly not the fleet carriers.

[Rogue 9]

Lessee... What's wrong with this picture? Let me think about this for a second...

Ah yes. YOU JUST FIRED A VOLLEY OF FTL MISSILES AT A PAIR OF RUNNING INTERDICTORS! THEY'RE NOT GOING TO GET ANYWHERE NEAR THEM!

[Stormbringer]

That's the beauty of Kincaid weapons- as far as they are concerned, your carriers are standing still.

That's the beauty of E-45s. They're just as jammed no matter what speed they're moving at. This salvo is not going to kill all my carriers, certainly not the fleet carriers.

Sorry, but your carriers are a good deal larger and with the launches are going to be a very distinct target. Sure you can attempt to jam them but the flight time is going to a be a fraction of a second. And of course the fact that they apparently switched on afterwards isn't going to save your carriers.

Let's do a bit of math shall we:

9 SDs x 8 Kincaids = 72
12 BCs x 6 Kincaids = 72
20 CAs x 4 Kincaids = 80

Add them up and it's pure overkill.

[Stormbringer]

Lessee... What's wrong with this picture? Let me think about this for a second...

Ah yes. YOU JUST FIRED A VOLLEY OF FTL MISSILES AT A PAIR OF RUNNING INTERDICTORS! THEY'RE NOT GOING TO GET ANYWHERE NEAR THEM!

Actually, Interdictors take time to power up and I already had the shots deployed. It doesn't take long to push a button and as soon as your interdictors so much as twictched they'd be dead.

[Rogue 9]

Okay, what do you think I deployed jammers for if they weren't going to be jamming when you showed up? The only thing that just switched on was the interdictors, and they'd be well up and running before you reload a second volley.

[Stormbringer]

Okay, what do you think I deployed jammers for if they weren't going to be jamming when you showed up? The only thing that just switched on was the interdictors, and they'd be well up and running before you reload a second volley.

Hey, if you had said they're working find. But you posted them as only activating afterwards. I ran with it.


And I hate to break to you but even your jammers aren't going to disguise the signature of an interdictor. If they can affect space that much, that means they're radiating a lot of very traceable emissions.

[Rogue 9]

That's the beauty of Kincaid weapons- as far as they are concerned, your carriers are standing still.

That's the beauty of E-45s. They're just as jammed no matter what speed they're moving at. This salvo is not going to kill all my carriers, certainly not the fleet carriers.

Sorry, but your carriers are a good deal larger and with the launches are going to be a very distinct target. Sure you can attempt to jam them but the flight time is going to a be a fraction of a second. And of course the fact that they apparently switched on afterwards isn't going to save your carriers.

Let's do a bit of math shall we:

9 SDs x 8 Kincaids = 72
12 BCs x 6 Kincaids = 72
20 CAs x 4 Kincaids = 80

Add them up and it's pure overkill.

That's a piddling amount of missiles compared to what's normally thrown around. I'm sorry, you are not auto-killing my fleet. Not in my system with my defenses, my jamming, and my countermeasures all over the damn place.

[Rogue 9]

Okay, what do you think I deployed jammers for if they weren't going to be jamming when you showed up? The only thing that just switched on was the interdictors, and they'd be well up and running before you reload a second volley.

Hey, if you had said they're working find. But you posted them as only activating afterwards. I ran with it.


And I hate to break to you but even your jammers aren't going to disguise the signature of an interdictor. If they can affect space that much, that means they're radiating a lot of very traceable emissions.

And conversely, if it is affecting said space, said missiles don't work anymore.

[Stormbringer]

That's a piddling amount of missiles compared to what's normally thrown around. I'm sorry, you are not auto-killing my fleet. Not in my system with my defenses, my jamming, and my countermeasures all over the damn place.

And you might notice that in the swarms of thousands of missles that get lobbed around, most people arent' expecting more than a few, dozen at most, to hit. Kincaid while weaker are virtually guaranteed hit.

[Stormbringer]

And conversely, if it is affecting said space, said missiles don't work anymore.

Again, they aren't instant on. They take time to power up, time in which they'll still be emitting.

[Rogue 9]

That's a piddling amount of missiles compared to what's normally thrown around. I'm sorry, you are not auto-killing my fleet. Not in my system with my defenses, my jamming, and my countermeasures all over the damn place.

And you might notice that in the swarms of thousands of missles that get lobbed around, most people arent' expecting more than a few, dozen at most, to hit. Kincaid while weaker are virtually guaranteed hit.

Not when jammed out the Wazoo. You think build and deploy E-45s in large numbers for shits and giggles?

[Stormbringer]

Not when jammed out the Wazoo. You think build and deploy E-45s in large numbers for shits and giggles?

1) E-45s aren't a magically answer to everything. A few Prowlers aren't going to hide the the Nimitiz. They have limits to what they can do.

2) You need specifically had them being off; if you feel the need to specifically turn them on the post before I arrived would have been a good time. That mistake might be retconned away but refer to point 1.

3) I don't need all them to hit. Enough can reasonably be expected to hit to mission kill, if not cripple or kill outright, your carriers.

[Rogue 9]

And that still leaves the problem of PD. Kincaid missiles aren't point defense proof. They strain it to the limit, but they're not immune. Marcao just spelled this out quite clearly to me before he went to bed. Think about it. If FTL missiles are the fuggin' be-all and end-all of fleet engagements like you're trying to make them, why haven't the Ousters conquered all of Known Space yet? I mean, if no one can stop their missiles and only a few will kill some of the toughest ships in most powers' arsenals...

[Stormbringer]

And that still leaves the problem of PD. Kincaid missiles aren't point defense proof. They strain it to the limit, but they're not immune.

Of course, but the simple fact is that you're not going to be able to negate a half a navy's worth of missle being sent at you with the STGOD equivalent of the EA-6 Prowler and the CIWS.

Marcao just spelled this out quite clearly to me before he went to bed. Think about it. If FTL missiles are the fuggin' be-all and end-all of fleet engagements like you're trying to make them, why haven't the Ousters conquered all of Known Space yet? I mean, if no one can stop their missiles and only a few will kill some of the toughest ships in most powers' arsenals...

Not a few, but the combined fire of nearly half a navy combined on just two ships is going to have a hell of an effect.

[Rogue 9]

Two? You seem to have miscounted. You see, you said to target carriers, of which there are 18 in that fleet.

[Murazor]

Just ships. At these ranges, the firepower of capship guns far outweighs missile firepower, and a furball like this makes firing into it from range a tricky proposition.

As for losses, I have another Carrier down and a Cataphract taking heavy hits- I suspect heavier losses amongst your ships. Plus some cruisers, 1 dead, 2 disabled, and few escorts (unless you arre focuing fire upon them.)

Decent enough list and I meant not as badly outnumbered as the 2 to 1 you had in Talathrant. In other news, the damage on my forces will be going mostly for the lighter ships as your alpha strike was focused on them.

[Straha]

Too damn small of an army.
Hell... In the original STGOD 1, I invaded Japan with a larger army.

And got promply whiped off of the coast without ever getting out of the beaches.

[Stormbringer]

Two? You seem to have miscounted. You see, you said to target carriers, of which there are 18 in that fleet.

Actually, I've been intending that this be aimed at the carriers, meaning the Venutre class, not carrier meaning everything. I realize I've made an error in that. Sorry about that.

[Thirdfain]

the three remaining Attack Carriers released their fighter payloads. Wings of Aesirfausts and Morderwulves, guarded by swirling groups of Nachtjager interceptors sprung ahead, diving towards their targets- the enemy capital ships.

Murazor, my fighter attack is being launched ONLY at your capships. Not a single bomber or fighter is approaching one of your cruisers. Additionally, they are attacking at very close range, sprinting from their mothership's shielding, and, with only interceptors defending (your escort screen is a tattered mess), and your vessels being hit with weapons that your weird shields and armor don't offer particular protection against, the vast majority of my bombers will get through. This doesn't mean that you won't shoot a lot of them down, but when their flight time to target is measured in seconds, you'll be shooting most ofthem down after they've released their payloads.

I suspect to see you taking heavy hits to your capship wall.

[Thirdfain]

And need I add that since your vessels mount two different shielding systems as well as two different types of hyperdrive, they will have less room for weaponry and combat electronics, not to mention internal bracing. Your vessels will go up quickly once their shields fail. I think that losing 1 DN outright and having 2 carriers wounded would be fair at this point.

And that still leaves the problem of PD. Kincaid missiles aren't point defense proof. They strain it to the limit, but they're not immune. Marcao just spelled this out quite clearly to me before he went to bed. Think about it. If FTL missiles are the fuggin' be-all and end-all of fleet engagements like you're trying to make them, why haven't the Ousters conquered all of Known Space yet? I mean, if no one can stop their missiles and only a few will kill some of the toughest ships in most powers' arsenals...

Of course not, but they DO allow a vastly superior wall of battle so snipe out a few carriers from under your feet.

[Thirdfain]

Oh wow, I just found what you had traded off for your ability to have all these cool additions to your warships. You can't detect Known Space FTL drives. WTF is going on here?::

Sensors: Their sensors are slightly better than average and have slightly bigger range. However, currently they don't know how to detect most forms of Hyperspace FTL travel.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Final casualties

4 Dreadnoughts
15 cruisers
Still have all my carriers
23 missile destroyers
23 fast destroyers

[Marcao]

Hello Lovelies!

I am going to throw in my two cents on a few matters I have noticed since yesterday. I apologize for leaving to bed and letting things hang for a while, but I was reaally tired.

1. I think everyone in the STGOD by now should be well aware of the fact that there are only two circumstances as of right now where you can call damage on your adversary or STGOD partner. The first, is if you are working closely OOC with your adversary and you are granted his or her blesssing to do so. This occurred somewhat with the latest series of posts between the Krell and the Draconis. The second is if a mod goes ballistic and in the middle of using his modstick declares damage. If at any time any party feels that his adversary or STGOD partner is not taking appropriate losses, these complaints can be aimed towards myself or pablo assuming that the players cannot come to an agreement.

2. As has already been talked about Kincaid torpedoes are not immune to point defense. They are not direct fire weapons, and frankly, if kincaid torps are being fired from normal missile ranges and they are taking fraction of seconds to arrive at their destinations, when normal STL missiles would be taking dozens of seconds we have a problem and Kincaid torps should be slowed down. Ultimately, I am of the opinion that even if the Kincaid Torps teleport against shields (which they don't) point defense and hypercomm jamming will have their effect. Kincaid Torps are relatively well balanced, and they are the primary reason why Interdictors were forced to have two modes of effect. Beowulf's assertion that real space torps are aking to ADCAP's while Kincaids are Shkvals is loosely accurate.

3. Ultimately, as I understand the Asgard have a hell of a lot of ships in the area and as such, undoubtedly missiles Kincaid and otherwise will break through the jamming and point defense. They will have their effect, although once again as relevant to point 1, the defender gets to assign damage while taking into consideration where they originally were aimed.

4. I gave this point a bit of thought overnight as it deals with Nashtar interdictors in the area and their practice. As far as anyone is aware of, IC the Asgard do not possess FTL missiles. This would mean, that until the Kincaid missiles were fired, the Nasthar would not have direct reason to have their Interdictors in mode 2 unless they were extremely paranoid. Which is a certain possibility, Interdictors do not as I understand it get any stronger by having multiple ships in the same mode. As such, if you have two interdictors available, the idea of having one in each mode is not a bad idea. The Nashtar are at war, and cautiousness should be a definite consideration. Ultimately, I think this is a judgement call. Depending on the flight time of the Kincaids, it could be preferrable to have the first wave get through without fear of Interdiction. That way, the surprise that the Asgard have Kincaid torpedoes can have an IC effect.

5. My own personal outlook for missile range combat is as follows. You can designate targets, and fire missiles at these ranges, but wether your missiles will hit their intended targets is not a foregone conclusion. At such ranges, ordnance has to burn throught defending ECM, Jamming and point defense as the defending forces try to obsfuscate their fleet positions and so on. This problem is largely negated at energy ranges, where your likelihood of hitting what you want to hit, is significantly higher.

[Thirdfain]

My take on Kincaid torpedoes is that they are focus-fire weapons, useful for nailing targets like enemy Interdictors, planetary targets, and achieving objectives like taking out enemy pods before they can fire. They are also useful for picking enemy capital ships (individual ones- focus firing on a dreadnought or carrier when you have significant numerical superiority, such as in this case.)

Now, firing a massed volley of Kincaid torpedoes into an enemy fleet, using tactics such as those employed by the UP in their recent duel with the Krytos, will inflict substandard casualties. On the other hand, for jobs like this one, where a whole fleet's pod firepower is being released into two carriers, I'd expect significant damage, if not outright kills, on at least one of them.

[Beowulf]

[HABite]
ADCAP isn't a torpedo! It's a modification to an existing torpedo, the Mk. 48. It stands for Advanced Capability. It's an upgrade!
[/HABite]