ban on adultery-aka as turks shooting themselves in the feet

Post by **Colonel Olrik** » 2004-09-14 08:40am

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3654650.stm

Turkey's parliament is debating reforms to the country's penal code which would include making adultery a crime.

The controversial proposal is part of sweeping changes to Turkey's laws intended to bring them closer to those of European Union member states.

But a clause that would outlaw adultery has provoked domestic and international criticism.

EU leaders have warned the move could damage the country's bid to join the bloc, that is currently under scrutiny.

The BBC's Jonny Dymond, in Ankara, says Turkey is unlikely to vote on the proposals until the end of the week.

Mixed response

Many of the reforms - which include outlawing torture and imposing stiffer penalties on human traffickers - have been welcomed by the EU and human rights activists.

I cannot understand how a measure like this could be considered at such a time. It can only be a joke
Guenter Verheugen
EU enlargement commissioner

But the clause to make adultery a crime has been greeted with dismay by women's groups and liberal commentators who plan to demonstrate outside parliament against the bill.

"Such a law will not save marriages, on the contrary it will ruin them," women's rights advocate Senal Saruhan told the Associated Press.

"It is a backward approach that will allow the state to intervene in our lives."

Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan, a devout Muslim, says the clause, introduced late in the draft code, will help protect women from deception.

Details of the anti-adultery legislation have not yet been made public but Justice Minister Cemil Cicek said the measure could only be applied if the spouse complains.

Warning

An EU report due out in October will assess Turkey's progress towards meeting EU membership criteria.

Guenter Verheugen, the European commissioner for enlargement, commented on the adultery clause during a trip to Turkey last week.

"I cannot understand how a measure like this could be considered at such a time," Mr Verheugen said. "It can only be a joke."

The chair of Turkey's parliamentary commission on EU relations said the country was fully aware of opposition to the move - both within the EU and Turkey itself.

"This is one of the reasons why it is going to be discussed in detail," Yasar Yakis told the BBC.

"Other quarters of the Turkish public opinion are also against this initiative, so I'm sure the government will find a way in between somewhere."

Adultery used to be illegal in Turkey until 1996, when the Constitutional Court struck the law down because it penalised women more than men.

Men were deemed to have been adulterous if they were involved in a long-term affair; but women could be charged if they were unfaithful only once.

This is what makes fence-sitters on the subject, like me, give a lot of thought about the negative implications of having Turkey inside the EU.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2004-09-14 11:03am

And Ataturk rolls over in his grave...

Xenophobe3691 · Post by **Xenophobe3691** » 2004-09-14 11:06am

Of course, if this bill passes, more likely than not the Military's gonna tell them to fuck off and threaten to form a new government if they don't repeal it. Gotta love that balance...

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2004-09-14 11:26am

So the EU limits the personal soveriegnty of what potential member states can do? I am by all means not in favor of a law against Adultery but if Turkey feels that such a law reflects their values and culture why should that be supressed because it offends more secular or liberal nations in the EU? Isn't unions like this supposed to be about the larger tapestry of various different cultures and societies? The culture of the deep south tends to offend me but they can do what they want to do down there as long as they leave my New York ass alone I could care less. Can't the same be said about nations in the EU?

To head off those take things to extremes people, adultery is certainly not in the same class as racism or even sexism (If both parties can be accused of adultery not just the women) So its not akin in my mind to a state advocating one race or any other discriminatory law.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2004-09-14 11:59am

So the EU limits the personal soveriegnty of what potential member states can do?

Certainly it does, no EU nation is allowed to have the death penalty.

Keevan_Colton · Post by **Keevan_Colton** » 2004-09-14 12:40pm

Stravo, it's really simple, you want to join the club you have to play by the clubs rules on human rights. The EU arent saying that turkey cant pass laws, they're just saying some laws would make the EU go "Fuck off you cant play with us." Although likely in more offensive yet diplomatic terms.

Anti-adultery laws are pure nonsense anyway, adultery should be grounds for a divorce certainly, but not a criminal charge.

Col. Crackpot · Post by **Col. Crackpot** » 2004-09-14 12:43pm

so basicly, if you are married and for some reason enter a Turkish prison, you're never getting out.

Admiral_Handsome · Post by **Admiral_Handsome** » 2004-09-14 12:48pm

If lying in a court room is a punishable offence, then lying in a church, registry office, mosque or whatever instutue is recognised by the land, should also be illegal. One steps before a priest, a servant of the goverment, or an imam and takes a promise that he/she will be faithful etc etc. this is then put into writting on the marrige certificate and is recognised by the countries highest law institutes.

If we are to live by the letter of the law, then anyone commiting adultery (cheating on the marriage partner) has broken this vow, and should therefore be punished. My only concern is how harsh this punishment should be. Death by stoning, beheading or whatever savage punishment this once islamic state decides to use is wrong. But something along the lines of a fine or community service should be used, as well as counceling for the adulterous person. afterall, do they not need help if they cheat on their own husband/wife?

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-09-14 12:48pm

Stravo wrote:So the EU limits the personal soveriegnty of what potential member states can do? I am by all means not in favor of a law against Adultery but if Turkey feels that such a law reflects their values and culture why should that be supressed because it offends more secular or liberal nations in the EU?

Same reason the Southern States were told to drop slavery.

Isn't unions like this supposed to be about the larger tapestry of various different cultures and societies? The culture of the deep south tends to offend me but they can do what they want to do down there as long as they leave my New York ass alone I could care less.

The US Supreme Court would tend to disagree, as would Abraham Lincoln. When you form a union, you have to abide by certain rules. Otherwise, what precisely does the union signify? Extra meetings for your government leaders?

Can't the same be said about nations in the EU?

To head off those take things to extremes people, adultery is certainly not in the same class as racism or even sexism (If both parties can be accused of adultery not just the women) So its not akin in my mind to a state advocating one race or any other discriminatory law.

Why not? If you're going to throw someone in prison for breaching a contract rather than letting the matter be handled in civil court, that's a pretty harsh mentality.

Keevan_Colton · Post by **Keevan_Colton** » 2004-09-14 12:59pm

Admiral_Handsome wrote:If lying in a court room is a punishable offence, then lying in a church, registry office, mosque or whatever instutue is recognised by the land, should also be illegal. One steps before a priest, a servant of the goverment, or an imam and takes a promise that he/she will be faithful etc etc. this is then put into writting on the marrige certificate and is recognised by the countries highest law institutes.

Lying is not a crime in and of itself, purgery holds a penalty because it can cause real harm. Or didnt you think lying while giving evidence in court might have some implications for OTHER people. Adultery is a breach of trust certainly, a breach of contract arguably and you will find contracts are a CIVIL matter, not a criminal one.

If we are to live by the letter of the law, then anyone commiting adultery (cheating on the marriage partner) has broken this vow, and should therefore be punished. My only concern is how harsh this punishment should be. Death by stoning, beheading or whatever savage punishment this once islamic state decides to use is wrong. But something along the lines of a fine or community service should be used, as well as counceling for the adulterous person. afterall, do they not need help if they cheat on their own husband/wife?

Excuse me, could you yank your head out your rectum please, it's most distracting. Who someone sleeps with is not your concern providing those doing the sleepin' are old enough to make their own decisions much less the concern of any decent government. Fuck up idiot.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-09-14 01:23pm

Admiral_Hatfucker wrote:If lying in a court room is a punishable offence, then lying in a church, registry office, mosque or whatever instutue is recognised by the land, should also be illegal.

You're so stupid it's amazing you remember to keep breathing. The law is an instrument of the state, not the church.

One steps before a priest, a servant of the goverment, or an imam and takes a promise that he/she will be faithful etc etc. this is then put into writting on the marrige certificate and is recognised by the countries highest law institutes.

Hey dumb-fuck, the legal marriage contract is recognized by the law. Not the religious ceremony.

If we are to live by the letter of the law, then anyone commiting adultery (cheating on the marriage partner) has broken this vow, and should therefore be punished. My only concern is how harsh this punishment should be. Death by stoning, beheading or whatever savage punishment this once islamic state decides to use is wrong. But something along the lines of a fine or community service should be used, as well as counceling for the adulterous person. afterall, do they not need help if they cheat on their own husband/wife?

You're a moron; the punishment for breaking a contract is reparations to the injured party if that party launches a suit, usually in the form of divorce and alimony. You don't even recognize the distinction between civil and criminal cases, do you? Do you think someone should face criminal charges if he leaves work 5 minutes early? Breach of contract there too, you know, and "letter of the law" and all that

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2004-09-14 01:29pm

Admiral_Handsome wrote:If lying in a court room is a punishable offence, then lying in a church, registry office, mosque or whatever instutue is recognised by the land, should also be illegal. One steps before a priest, a servant of the goverment, or an imam and takes a promise that he/she will be faithful etc etc. this is then put into writting on the marrige certificate and is recognised by the countries highest law institutes.

And adultery is considered a breach of that contract, which is a civil matter, not a criminal one. The other party can justifiably file for divorce on the grounds that his/her partner broke the contract, and the wronged party can seek monetary damages. But turning adultery into a criminal offense is utterly ridiculous.

The fact that you promised something in front of a priest or imam means absolutely jack shit. That is a verbal agreement, which carries very little weight. The only agreements which matter are the ones you sign. In order to be actionable, there must be a breach of a legal contract.

If we are to live by the letter of the law, then anyone commiting adultery (cheating on the marriage partner) has broken this vow, and should therefore be punished. My only concern is how harsh this punishment should be. Death by stoning, beheading or whatever savage punishment this once islamic state decides to use is wrong. But something along the lines of a fine or community service should be used, as well as counceling for the adulterous person. afterall, do they not need help if they cheat on their own husband/wife?

Again, completely ridiculous, and a total waste of criminal court resources. Your dumb-ass logic would have us arresting people who skip over their sins in confession.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-09-14 01:40pm

Wow, Admiral_Hatfucker turns out to be another Borg wanker who just happens to be an idiot. What are the odds?

Admiral_Handsome · Post by **Admiral_Handsome** » 2004-09-14 02:01pm

In order to be actionable, there must be a breach of a legal contract.

You mean like putting your name on a marriage certificate? the same certificate with is recognised by the highest institutes of law?

Darth Wong wrote:

...foams at the mouth before he gets his words right...The law is an instrument of the state, not the church

And yet the marriage is recognised by the state. Why do you think there is so much fuss over gay marriage? Why dont gays simply declare they are married? Its because it must be LEGALLY recognised, mofo.

Hey dumb-fuck, the legal marriage contract is recognized by the law. Not the religious ceremony

It does not matter where the vows are taken as long as the ceremony and the certificate is recognised by the law of the land. If the religious ceremony abides by the laws of the land then it is valid. Gay ceremonies are not recognised no matter what sort of ceremony is done, religious or otherwise.

the punishment for breaking a contract is reparations to the injured party

Hence my backing of a fine or community service as the punishment, you do have a short memory dont you. The money could be given to the victim. Who did you think was going to get it?

Do you think someone should face criminal charges if he leaves work 5 minutes early

Only if he is breaking the rules on his contract, and if he keeps offending even after being warned. If he does it 100 times then thats 500 mins of company working time completely wasted. Calculate how much money the firm could have made with that many working hours and fine the guilty worker.

Breach of contract there too, you know, and "letter of the law" and all that

Yes good idea, lets only enforce the laws YOU like and not those which you don't. How well you know the law, you should have been a judge

.

Admiral_Handsome · Post by **Admiral_Handsome** » 2004-09-14 02:06pm

Wow, Admiral_Hatfucker turns out to be another Borg wanker who just happens to be an idiot. What are the odds

Warth Dong is yet another geek who thinks just because he has one of those Engineering degrees, that he is above eveyone else. The professors at my uni really knew some good engineer jokes

, but I won't post them since you may be offended .

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2004-09-14 02:12pm

Admiral_Handsome wrote:
It does not matter where the vows are taken as long as the ceremony and the certificate is recognised by the law of the land. If the religious ceremony abides by the laws of the land then it is valid. Gay ceremonies are not recognised no matter what sort of ceremony is done, religious or otherwise.

actually, yes it does matter. whether or not a marriage ceremony is valid is determined by the state as opposed to the federal institutions. a marriage ceremony held in a state that recognizes gay marriage as valid, for example, may or may not be recognized by another state.

there's also the fact that marriage is simultaneously a secular and religious ceremony. it is not solely the province of religion. someone can get married by a state magistrate or judge and it would be just as valid as a religious one.

Only if he is breaking the rules on his contract, and if he keeps offending even after being warned. If he does it 100 times then thats 500 mins of company working time completely wasted. Calculate how much money the firm could have made with that many working hours and fine the guilty worker.

most judiciaries and employers also gauge things by the spirit of the law, as opposed to simply the letter due to the kinds of nasty loopholes that could be opened up if the letter of the law was the only thing taken into consideration.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2004-09-14 02:16pm

Admiral_Handsome wrote:
In order to be actionable, there must be a breach of a legal contract.
You mean like putting your name on a marriage certificate? the same certificate with is recognised by the highest institutes of law?

..As a legal contract, yes. And legal contract breaches are handled in civil court. Not in criminal court.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-09-14 02:23pm

Admiral_Hatfucker wrote:
The law is an instrument of the state, not the church
And yet the marriage is recognised by the state. Why do you think there is so much fuss over gay marriage? Why dont gays simply declare they are married? Its because it must be LEGALLY recognised, mofo.

Recognized as a CIVIL CONTRACT, you imbecile. No criminal charges are associated with breach of contract.

Hey dumb-fuck, the legal marriage contract is recognized by the law. Not the religious ceremony

It does not matter where the vows are taken as long as the ceremony and the certificate is recognised by the law of the land. If the religious ceremony abides by the laws of the land then it is valid. Gay ceremonies are not recognised no matter what sort of ceremony is done, religious or otherwise.

Wrong. Gay marriages are recognized in several countries.

the punishment for breaking a contract is reparations to the injured party
Hence my backing of a fine or community service as the punishment, you do have a short memory dont you. The money could be given to the victim. Who did you think was going to get it?

The government is not the injured party, you idiot. Are you honestly so stupid that you don't understand the distinction between civil and criminal cases?

Do you think someone should face criminal charges if he leaves work 5 minutes early
Only if he is breaking the rules on his contract, and if he keeps offending even after being warned. If he does it 100 times then thats 500 mins of company working time completely wasted. Calculate how much money the firm could have made with that many working hours and fine the guilty worker.

I see the answer to my previous question is no.

Warth Dong is yet another geek who thinks just because he has one of those Engineering degrees, that he is above eveyone else.

Not everyone, but certainly you. You have demonstrated your stupidity for all to see.

The professors at my uni really knew some good engineer jokes Laughing , but I won't post them since you may be offended .

Yes, the engineering, math, and science faculties all like to take good-natured swipes at each other. The snipes coming from the arts faculty are not so good-natured, but that's because of jealousy and ignorance.

Imperial Overlord · Post by **Imperial Overlord** » 2004-09-14 02:32pm

Hey, I resent that. The snipes between Science, Arts, and Engineering were pretty good natured when I was at UBC.

Actually, the nastiest shots at Arts that I can remember were from inside it. My profs had could take really good cracks at their department.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-09-14 02:35pm

Imperial Overlord wrote:Hey, I resent that. The snipes between Science, Arts, and Engineering were pretty good natured when I was at UBC.

It might be better if you go to a school where the Arts faculty is prestigious and hence lacks the insecurity syndromes that led to the constant whining at my alma mater. Even arts students would admit that the arts profs there spent undue effort propagandizing about how arts is more necessary in society than math/science/engineering.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2004-09-14 03:04pm

Admiral_Handsome wrote:You mean like putting your name on a marriage certificate? the same certificate with is recognised by the highest institutes of law?

Yes, putting your name on a contract is indeed recognized by law. And breaking that contract is grounds for the other party(ies) to sue you ... in civil court.

Admiral_Handsome · Post by **Admiral_Handsome** » 2004-09-14 03:22pm

I don't have time to post much right now, but I had to post this last comment.

Warth Dong Wrote:

Yes, the engineering, math, and science faculties all like to take good-natured swipes at each other.

Good natured? I'm not so sure. You see, when one lesser department gets more money than a highly gifted department, the jokes begin to turn sour. But they are still funny

The snipes coming from the arts faculty are not so good-natured, but that's because of jealousy and ignorance.

I notice you didn't add any insults in your post. You are too transparent Warth Dong, are you curious to see what degree I have? You thought that craply worded sentence was going to get an answer out of me? Rest assured it was more challenging than 'The Mighty Engineering Degree' (

) which you seem to think gives you the right to comment on anything to do with mathematics or science.

To you Warth Dong I extend my left hand, to others my right (see avatar).

back later (maybe)

Imperial Overlord · Post by **Imperial Overlord** » 2004-09-14 03:23pm

UBC has a huge Engineering department (it seemed like half the people in residence were geers, although a quarter would probably be more accurate). There was discussion about the place of Arts, but most of those were between students just after midnight and a couple of alcoholic drinks.

I always got along well with geers and anyone with a brain respects the workload they have to handle. Of course, I veer wildly between overwhelming arrogance and massive insecurity

under ordinary conditions, so there is no reason for me to feel insecure around engineers.

The people who I had the nastiest gibes with were Commerce students. Almost unfailingly nice guys, they seemed to be unable to give anything but rote, callous answers to any socio-economic question. It was far too much like brainwashing not to creep me out. I don't trust reflexively uniform thought.

Iceberg · Post by **Iceberg** » 2004-09-14 03:24pm

Admiral_Handsome wrote:I don't have time to post much right now, but I had to post this last comment.

Warth Dong Wrote:
Yes, the engineering, math, and science faculties all like to take good-natured swipes at each other.
Good natured? I'm not so sure. You see, when one lesser department gets more money than a highly gifted department, the jokes begin to turn sour. But they are still funny

And you know what they say about he who laughs last.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2004-09-14 03:25pm

Admiral_Handsome wrote:I don't have time to post much right now, but I had to post this last comment.

Translation: Our new troll has no rebuttals to any of this, so instead of actually trying to push his point through logically, he will toss out personal attacks and not even try and debate the topic or admit he's beaten.