The Show Trial of Admiral Handsome

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-09-15 12:13am

Master of Ossus wrote:Ban the fucker. Sniping from a signature is not allowed for a reason.

I don't think Admiral_Hatfucker understands the distinction between quoting a single funny line from an opponent verbatim and using your sig to construct an attack (albeit a laughably poor one in his case).

Dark Hellion · Post by **Dark Hellion** » 2004-09-15 12:22am

He clearly doesn't understand the purpose of rules and seems to be making no attempt to follow them or to make any sort of reparation from the effects of his actions. I vote ban.

Elheru Aran · Post by **Elheru Aran** » 2004-09-15 12:51am

Kill him. Rules are there for a reason, no? Aside from that... <buffs fingernails on shirt, yawns, goes back to art project>

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2004-09-15 01:28am

Ban. He contributes nothing but strife.

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2004-09-15 01:43am

Ban him. If person contributes nothing and breaks the rules, he's worthless to us. That's my opinion.

AdmiralPorkins · Post by **AdmiralPorkins** » 2004-09-15 02:52am

Yes this guys is insulting, but thats not a problem in my eyes. He was giving as good as he was getting. If he is to be punished for being insulting then many other users should be here defending their actions too.
Too early to tell, and he has actualy made an effort to tackle the debate, even if his views are not the same as mine, but I respect that. I happen to agree with him about the Prime Directive though, it is a savage law

The insults were probably his way of winning the debate. I would not use insults,but hey, this is a tough forum where many insults fly back and forth. They may hurt but in the end they are only words. If he only insulted then I would vote ban him, but he does put debateting words with his insulting words so it is fair.
I dont like him much but I must be fair.

I vote let him be.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-09-15 03:12am

Question: Has anyone ever been acquitted in a ban, VI, or other punishment poll (besides Talon Karrde, who's acquittal on the matter of his sig was overturned)?

Ace Pace · Post by **Ace Pace** » 2004-09-15 03:29am

Boredshirtless? or was that after the VI passed?

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2004-09-15 03:47am

Rogue 9 wrote:Question: Has anyone ever been acquitted in a ban, VI, or other punishment poll (besides Talon Karrde, who's acquittal on the matter of his sig was overturned)?

Actually, yeah. There have been a couple of people who have gotten through this stage intact, though they were never our more grievous offenders. The mods tend to try to only allow such polls to be opened, though, when the evidence is clear and convincing.

Sarevok · Post by **Sarevok** » 2004-09-15 04:44am

Rogue 9 wrote:Question: Has anyone ever been acquitted in a ban, VI, or other punishment poll (besides Talon Karrde, who's acquittal on the matter of his sig was overturned)?

Boredshirtless, Raule Duke Jr.

Chardok · Post by **Chardok** » 2004-09-15 06:54am

abstain. He's too new.

Post by **Edi** » 2004-09-15 08:07am

He's a useless arsegoblin, therefore, whack him!

Edi

Admiral_Handsome · Post by **Admiral_Handsome** » 2004-09-15 08:22am

the defendent may rise

Ok so I am being attacked and now it is time to defend myself.

Lets begin by looking at my posts in the 'Enforcing the Prime Directive' thread:

my post

Alyeska wrote:

The Prime Directive only applies to Federation citizens...

Are you sure? That seems rather odd since all the pre-warp civilisations do not know the Federation even exists. How can they be citizens of something they know nothing about?

Take Mintaka for example. The prime directive was enforced on the planet (before the mess up) even though the Mintakans had no knowledge of the Federation and therefore did not consider themselves to be Federation citizens. Which would mean the prime directive wouldn't apply to them.

I would say the prime directive applies to ALL races that are not actively engaged in hostile acts against the Federation or that have not yet communicated and opened relations with the Federation. The Tamarians are a good example I think. Since communication was impossible, the Federation did not interfere with them. Once communication has been made, the prime directive is out of the window and trade as well as political discussion is open.

Now here I believed that Aly was implying the prime directive was only to be used when dealing with federation citizens. As we all know this is clearly wrong, since it is meant to be applied (for one) to pre warp peoples, not fed citizens etc. Also note that I have given an opinion on the matter and therefore contributed to the discussion. By giving an example ie the 'Mintakans' I have given some relevant evidence. Now Aly wrote this in reply:

Your not paying attention. The restrictions of the Prime Directive only apply to Federation citizens. This means that only Federation citizens must abide by the Non Interferance rule. Now when a pre-warp civilization is within Federation space the Federation basicaly claim it under Prime Directive protection and prevent other governments and people from interferring.

Now I knew what Aly meant, this matter was cleared up and forgotten as far as I was concerned. There was no further debate on this.

My next post was

Alyeska wrote:
Quote:
Incorrect. The Federation would have to fight wars with just about everyone if they attempted to enforce the Prime Directive. What other soverign governments do in or near their borders is something the Federation can not change unless they are willing to go to war over it. Hence only the Federation and planets within the Federation fall under the Prime Directive.
Now it is YOU who is not paying attention miss Alyeska.

Which part of my post did you not get? I wrote this:

"I would say the prime directive applies to ALL races that are not actively engaged in hostile acts against the Federation or that have not yet communicated and opened relations with the Federation"

So where did you get this rubbish that I somehow implied the Federation wants to enforce the prime directive on races which have soverign governments, by the use of arms?

Read again. "I would say the prime directive applies to ALL races that are not actively engaged in hostile acts against the Federation or that have not yet communicated and opened relations with the Federation."

Let me clear that up, just in case you are not paying attention again.
If a previously unknown race such as the husnok came out of deep space and attacked the Feds without ever communicating then the prime directive ie the non interference in other species affairs part, would be out the nearest airlock.
Also, if communication cannot be made with a race, the Federation WILL NOT interfere with that race. The Tamarians are your example of this.

There you go miss Alyeska, now do pay attention in the future.

So firstly I go on the offensive. Aly accused me of not paying attention to his posts because of the misinterpretation and he cleared it up for me, thus making his position clear. Point taken.
But now it is his turn to not pay attention because he has not interpreted MY post correctly. Same problem, but now reversed. Ok so he misinterpreted and then began to assume things on my behalf ie "the Federation can not change unless they are willing to go to war over it..."

I never implied this, so he is wrong. His misinterpretation was wrong and therefore his post was wrong too. I offered to clear it up. I did just that, and then said this "There you go miss Alyeska, now do pay attention in the future" not an offensive post if you think Aly is a women who is not paying attention. So far so good.

Alyeska wrote:

Grow a fucking brain. The Prime Directive is a Federation law. Why would the rest of the galaxy give a rats ass about that?

Again he misinterprets my post, but he cannot see this (YET!) Not only does he misinterpret, but he also adds in an insult "Grow a fucking brain" ie implying that my comments were 'dumb' and therefor I lacked a brain. He made the mistake (which he later admits), he was the dumb one in this case.

Darth Zod then arrives. He (she?) makes the same mistake (probably due to Alyeka making such a fuss). No matter since he was not offensive and didn't make an ass of himself. He left himself the room needed for correction without making an issue of it.

My next post

Let me first say this, Miss Alyeska please SHUT UP (grow a brain? What the hell is that meant to mean? How can I be typing if I have no brain? Yet again your reasoning awsome )

Back to the discussion...

Darth Zod Wrote:

Quote:
that logic doesn't work unless you only apply it to planets within federation territory. outside of federation territory Starfleet doesn't have the authority to enforce jack shit.

using your reasoning, the federation would enforce the prime directive in say, Romulan Space, during eras when the Romulans weren't engaged in hostilities with the federation. which it couldn't do without risking war with the Romulans since it has no business being in their territory in the first place.

I'm not sure we are on the same wavelength here. Let me make myself a little more clear so we can see where we stand. I'm not implying that any other race should obey the prime directive. You should read my comments in the context of how the Federation itself obeys the PD. Let me show you what I mean.

Take my earlier statement: "... the prime directive applies to ALL races that are not actively ..."

I meant this in terms of Federation policy towards other races. If the prime directive applies to a race (ie the Tamarians) then what I mean is that the Federation will not interfere with that race, and will uphold the prime directive when dealing with that race. therefore the PD applies to that race. Just a simple reading misunderstanding, but I can see how my comments could be read in that way. Hope that clears it Zod

Ok I begin by telling Aly to shut up. I was not willing to speak to a person who gets himself mixed up and then tries to blame that error on me. Not going to happen. A waste of my time.
I instead turned to Darth Zod who did not insult me and therefore left himself in a non-embarrasing position when he was corrected. I clearly explained what my position was and attempted to end the misinterpretation. Darth Zod did not attack me and seemed quite friendly, so I did not attack him. Simple really.

Alyeska wrote:

I'm a guy dipshit.

Furthermore you got into an argument with me without ever reading everything in this thread. Prime Directive applies to non-warp civilizations that do not have previous contact with warp civilizations. The Prime Directive does not apply to warp capable civilizations. This means the Federation will do as it pleases with warp capable or warp visited civilizations.

Everything you have posted has already been covered, although you did a magnificent job of NOT speaking clearly and deciding to get into an argument over things already decided.

First Aly tells me he is a guy. Fair enough, my mistake. His name sounds femenine to me. But he calls me a dipshit for good measure, and thus leaves himself open to an insult from me.
Then he say that I didn't read the rest of the posts simply because HE thinks so. He comes up with his reason ie PD only applies to warp able species. Ok but I have evidence which disputes this. He then says everything I said was already covered and then makes his crap excuse about why HE didn't interpret my post correctly. If everything I said was covered, then why did he respond to my posts? Maybe its because it was not covered! Voyager had some interesting PD incidents which I wanted to bring up AND which were not mentioned yet. Its that simple. There was more room for discussion even though Aly says otherwise.

Alyeska wrote:

FYI Grow a Brain means that you are acting like and idiot and that you need to change your ways. The insult works in that it assumes you don't have one and that in order to change your ways you must grow one. Deductive reasoning isn't strong with you is it?

Yes whatever. YOU made the mistake and your calling ME the idiot? Be a man and admit your mistakes so we can move on ffs. And your a supermod? Learn from Darth Zod how to post and still leave room open for correction. Aly made his position clear. He misinterpreted, but instead of admitting it he dug deeper into the same shithole he was stuck in. This just dragged a pointless thing on and on. NOTE when my misinterpretation of his post was corrected by him, did I try and get out of it by spouting crap? NO. I let the matter die, just as any sane man with a limited amount of time to spare would. Supermod? No, super-pride! Too proud to let his mistakes go by!

My next post after Praxis joined the discussion.

A Lady Wrote:
Quote:
I'm a guy dipshit

??? Then why do you have such a sissy girls name? What does it mean?

Quote:
The Prime Directive does not apply to warp capable civilizations

Then why was Janeway so careful about not giving tech to the warp civilisations she ran across during the voyage home?

Quote:
This means the Federation will do as it pleases with warp capable or warp visited civilizations

You mean like the Tamarians? No contact was possible so they didn't interfere with them for decades, they completely avoided them until picard bridged the two for future talks, and only because THEY were the ones who made the 'first contact'.

Quote:
although you did a magnificent job of NOT speaking clearly

Am I the one at fault? You read my earlier post and then 'click' you finally understood and saw how pathetic your earlier posts had been.

Quote:
you need to change your ways

Or what? Why do I need to change? And what is it exactly that I need to change?

Praxis Wrote:
Quote:
One question:
What if two aspects of the Prime Directive contradict? (perhaps I'm wrong and this thing is part of Starfleet's directive, not the prime directive, but anyway:)
For example:
1) Always answer a distress call
2) Don't interfere with developing societies

If a planet just like modern day Earth, with 6 billion people was in danger, (lets say a meteorite is about to hit it) then the Federation would not lift a finger to help the inhabitants on that planet for the simple reason that they are not technologicaly advanced enough. The Federation would rather watch 6 billion people die than help a civilisation that is not as technologicaly advanced as they. How on Earth they can call themselves civilised is beyond me. My guess is that if something as bad as my above example actually happened, then the Federation leaders would be overthrown by the more compassionate general public.

When I referred to Aly I made an insult by adding "a lady wrote". I don't find it very offensive, but it was an insult. Tit for tat as it were. He insults me and so I insult him. After he corrected me about him being a guy, I asked why he had such a sissy name and what it meant. I call it sissy because it sounds like a girls name to me. Imagine if a man had the name Susan for example. Would that not be a sissy name for a grown man? But in another language Susan may be a respectable mans name. The exact same case applies here.
Insults are one thing, but if that was all that I wrote then my post could be considered a waste of time and trolling. As it happens I continued with the debate and therefore the post was ok.
I raised the point that the PD does not only apply to pre-warp civs and that my definition of the PD was justified. I gave the case of Voyager and their many encounters with warp able races in my defense. A very valid point I might add.
Aly said the fed " will do as it pleases with warp capable or warp visited civilizations" This in my opinion is wrong. I gave an example IE the Tamarians as justification. Valid examples of much importance. This is what you would call a debate NOT TROLLING. Didn't like my insults? Fine, then insult me back, BUT ANSWER MY QUESTIONS.

I was told that "you need to change your ways" by Aly. Well thats ok but tell me what is currently wrong with my ways and we can work it out.
As further proof that I was actually having a useful discussion, I point to my answer to Praxis. I made the point that the PD was barbaric, and I gave my reasons. Normal debating tactics as far as I can tell.

My next post was a normal discussion with Darth Zod with my opinion and reasons for that opinion. That was my last post on that thread and I did not read anything written after that, until now. Let me point this out to everyone here. Was I being offensive? Yes I was. Was I being offensive to everyone? No I was not. Why? Anyone wonder why I have lashed out only at only Aly and not Praxis or Darth Zod and the rest? Let me answer this simply. Aly was annoying and offensive and so I offended him back. Others who were more level headed did not cause me any offense and I spoke to them well. You insult me. I insult you back. I don't pick fights but I will return the favour. That is not a crime. That is a right!

While we are on the subject of banning lets bring in the rules:

AdmiralKanos

The acceptable use policy for the StarDestroyer.Net BBS is as follows:
Actions for which you can be banned:

Trolling: this is a widely used term with competing definitions. In this case, it refers to people who post inflammatory flamebait without even attempting to seriously debate any issue or provide any information. It's not necessarily a banning offense to post flamebait or be abusive to another user, but if that's all you do, then you won't stick around for long.

Ok lets study the basic rules and see which have been broken.
'people who post inflammatory flamebait without even attempting to seriously debate any issue or provide any information'

has not been broken by me. I HAVE attempted to debate and I have provided examples/information to back my case up, as shown in the PD thread. I did not post simply to flame, I posted flames WITH my discussions. No crime committed.
I will let Kanos talk for me 'It's not necessarily a banning offense to post flamebait or be abusive to another user'

Posting of child pornography, encouragement of pedophilia, incitement of criminal activities, cracking, threats of cracking, aiding and abetting crackers, death threats, etc.

surley these are not the accusations against me? I think not. Next!

Personal vendettas. Activities such as "following someone around" from thread to thread and trying to hijack discussions to focus on the character of the victim are not allowed. The most egregious example of this activity was a group from TrekBBS who signed up solely to belittle one of our users; only two of them made even a half-hearted attempt to discuss any actual subject other than their dislike of that user. And of those, only one would concede that vendettas are bad (believe it or not, the rest of them ran away to their own board where they quoted our threads and discussed them amongst themselves, until we finally blocked them after one of them cracked an account and the rest seemed to be aiding and abetting him).

Well given that the trial is based on two threads then this cannot apply. This one is out too.

Lets go over what is allowed and what is not a bannable offense:

Swearing is not penalized on this board in any way

Good, otherwise most people would be banned.

Insulting other users is rude but it is not considered a serious offense, as long as it is done in the course of discussing the subject. However, insulting someone solely for the sake of insulting him is strongly discouraged, and if that is all you do in this board, see the previous list

Good, I'm ok here. I have discussed the subject at hand therefore I'm well within the rules.

Disagreeing with the majority of the posters on the board about some kind of valid topic (as opposed to personal vendetta) such as Star Wars, politics, or religion is not an offense, and in fact, we actually need a certain level of dissent. But this is not the Tea Room; if you disagree with people and can't back up your position, expect flames

This is what I believe is being handed down to me. I'm being punished for not agreeing with others, even though it is not an offense. I gave my opinion on the PD debate and backed it up. I gave my opinion on the adultery debate but did not go into much detail. The reason being that I was unable to be at my computer, and I specifiaclly told them this so that they would not think I had turned to run away. Others took this as some sort of cowardly act, and that I was not willing to debate with them. Well forgive me for having things to do in the real world gentlemen. My only crime was having a life outside this forum and therefore not as much time as I would have liked to debate my point. I in no way said that I had finished with the thread. In fact I will post there after this trial is over.

Another reason why I'm having to defend myself (and this is the main reason) is that I have angered people who have much authority on this board. Aly is a supermod and Wong is the leader. Annoying these guys, even if it within my right to do so, is why I'm here. there is no logic behind it, only emotion. They are angry and they don't really care what the excuse is, they just want me out. So they attempt to blow all this out of proportion. I will post the adultery debate and go through that later today (when time allows). After that I will debate my innocence, and this will be laid to rest.

Also before I forget, my sig was deemed offensive BUT I have listened to the complaints and have taken the objections to it on board, therefore it is gone until further notice.

More to come later. Please be patient and let the accused plead his case to the masses.

Thank you

salm · Post by **salm** » 2004-09-15 08:55am

VI him.

Post by **Lagmonster** » 2004-09-15 09:43am

It's interesting that someone would take their defence seriously in a show trial.

Post by **The Yosemite Bear** » 2004-09-15 09:59am

Idiot, yes for now possible troller, still he's only done a few posts...

what am I saying I voted against banning Ray Cav.....

Captain Cyran · Post by **Captain Cyran** » 2004-09-15 11:01am

VI him.

Am I the only one seeing people getting banned earlier and earlier? Back at the beginning trolls could last a month or two before finally getting put down. Now they're lasting a week at most. Are we getting to hasty with bannings?

Post by **Kuja** » 2004-09-15 11:11am

Annoying these guys, even if it within my right to do so, is why I'm here.

Don't be an ass. If annoying Mike was a surefire way to get punished, then Stormbringer would've gotten his walking papers a long time ago.

J · Post by J » 2004-09-15 11:13am

Lagmonster wrote:It's interesting that someone would take their defence seriously in a show trial.

Somehow, I don't think he understands the concept of a show trial, but oh well...

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-09-15 11:20am

The defendant has admitted that he is here for the purpose of annoying people rather than contributing anything. I would say that this show trial is over; he has demonstrated the remarkably stupid trait of confessing to the charges while defending himself.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-09-15 11:26am

Darth Wong wrote:The defendant has admitted that he is here for the purpose of annoying people rather than contributing anything. I would say that this show trial is over; he has demonstrated the remarkably stupid trait of confessing to the charges while defending himself.

Actually, in fairness he's not saying that; rather, he stated his belief that he is here in HoS and this show trial is taking place because he annoyed people, not that he is on the board solely to annoy people.

Post by **AdmiralKanos** » 2004-09-15 11:35am

Rogue 9 wrote:Actually, in fairness he's not saying that; rather, he stated his belief that he is here in HoS and this show trial is taking place because he annoyed people, not that he is on the board solely to annoy people.

So? It's no more out-of-context than what he's done to others. Besides, he's saying that he has consistently followed logical debate methods, which is a blatant falsehood as anyone can see when they look at his threads.

Moreover, I also checked and discovered that he was using a free webmail account despite the huge banner saying not to: a sure sign of a troll (or someone who just can't read).

I'm assuming he was either approved in error or he changed his E-mail to an anonymous address immediately after signing up, in an attempt to find a way around the policy. I'll have to check into that. Either way, he should not be here in the first place.

PS. I checked, and he was approved because somebody wanted to see what he would do.

AdmiralPorkins · Post by **AdmiralPorkins** » 2004-09-15 11:55am

The defendant has admitted that he is here for the purpose of annoying people rather than contributing anything. I would say that this show trial is over; he has demonstrated the remarkably stupid trait of confessing to the charges while defending himself

I strongly disagree. He admitted no such thing.

What he has admitted is that he insulted people but only after he was offended. Now I may not like what he wrote, nor what you and Alyeska wrote, but thats not the issue here, Alyeska and yourself have insulted him and he admits being annoyed by this and says he tried to insult you back. Now I don't know the history between you guys, but thats your business. If you have a problem with this guy in the real world then leave it there. If not then leave him be. I was actually reading his Prime Directive posts and thought they were ok. He may be rude offensive and not to my liking but thats no reason to ban him. Slap a title under his name. Something like 'short fused temper', or' Do not disturb' so other don't fall into the trap of flaming each other.
Could someone clear this up. Is anyone allowed to insult Darth Wong or Alyeska as long as it within the debate? I would think YES since free speech is open here. Otherwise we would have supermods insulting news guys and then banning them when the insult back. Not fair.
Please don't have a go at me, im only giving you my neutral opinion. I could not care less what sort of background there exists between you, just don't make me a target too.
I agree with my earlier vote. No ban. Especially since we have have 100 times worse!

Post by **AdmiralKanos** » 2004-09-15 11:57am

AdmiralPorkins wrote:
The defendant has admitted that he is here for the purpose of annoying people rather than contributing anything. I would say that this show trial is over; he has demonstrated the remarkably stupid trait of confessing to the charges while defending himself
I strongly disagree. He admitted no such thing.

So? It's no more out-of-context than what he's done to others.

What he has admitted is that he insulted people but only after he was offended. Now I may not like what he wrote, nor what you and Alyeska wrote, but thats not the issue here, Alyeska and yourself have insulted him and he admits being annoyed by this and says he tried to insult you back.

It's not the insults; it's the fact that he blatantly ignored points, not to mention the fact that he ignored the board policy on registrations when he signed up. That meant he didn't have a lot of rope to play with.

Could someone clear this up. Is anyone allowed to insult Darth Wong or Alyeska as long as it within the debate?

You're a fucking moron. Read some of the things Shep has said to me in the past, you idiot. He's still here. For that matter, read some of the things Alyeska and I have exchanged; he's on my Hate Mail page for fuck's sake.

I agree with my earlier vote. No ban.

You can't vote twice, moron. And the ban votes easily outnumber the no-ban votes, by a very healthy non-Floridian margin.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2004-09-15 12:07pm

AdmiralPorkins wrote:
The defendant has admitted that he is here for the purpose of annoying people rather than contributing anything. I would say that this show trial is over; he has demonstrated the remarkably stupid trait of confessing to the charges while defending himself
I strongly disagree. He admitted no such thing.

What he has admitted is that he insulted people but only after he was offended. Now I may not like what he wrote, nor what you and Alyeska wrote, but thats not the issue here, Alyeska and yourself have insulted him and he admits being annoyed by this and says he tried to insult you back. Now I don't know the history between you guys, but thats your business. If you have a problem with this guy in the real world then leave it there. If not then leave him be. I was actually reading his Prime Directive posts and thought they were ok. He may be rude offensive and not to my liking but thats no reason to ban him. Slap a title under his name. Something like 'short fused temper', or' Do not disturb' so other don't fall into the trap of flaming each other.
Could someone clear this up. Is anyone allowed to insult Darth Wong or Alyeska as long as it within the debate? I would think YES since free speech is open here. Otherwise we would have supermods insulting news guys and then banning them when the insult back. Not fair.
Please don't have a go at me, im only giving you my neutral opinion. I could not care less what sort of background there exists between you, just don't make me a target too.
I agree with my earlier vote. No ban. Especially since we have have 100 times worse!

To put in perspective.

This: Let me first say this, Miss Alyeska please SHUT UP (grow a brain? What the hell is that meant to mean? How can I be typing if I have no brain? Yet again your reasoning awsome )
This: I don't have time to post much right now, but I had to post this last comment.

Warth Dong Wrote:
Yes, the engineering, math, and science faculties all like to take good-natured swipes at each other.
Good natured? I'm not so sure. You see, when one lesser department gets more money than a highly gifted department, the jokes begin to turn sour. But they are still funny

The snipes coming from the arts faculty are not so good-natured, but that's because of jealousy and ignorance.
I notice you didn't add any insults in your post. You are too transparent Warth Dong, are you curious to see what degree I have? You thought that craply worded sentence was going to get an answer out of me? Rest assured it was more challenging than 'The Mighty Engineering Degree' ( ) which you seem to think gives you the right to comment on anything to do with mathematics or science.

To you Warth Dong I extend my left hand, to others my right (see avatar).

back later (maybe)

As well as he signature are actually just a tad against the rules.

And his whole contribution has been half pointless trolling and the other half was his inability to prove Alyeska or Wong wrong in said debates.

That and saying

Annoying these guys, even if it within my right to do so, is why I'm here.

Engenders very little thought in what his want to be here is.

The Show Trial of Admiral Handsome

Ban Admiral_Handsome?