Muslim enclave in your backyard; what do you do?

[MKSheppard]

I know, I know, but it's like teasing my cats. You knwo what they're going to do but you just want to see them do it.

I could say the same thing about you Stravo, you've
been rather predictable lately. Usually once a week
you post some impassioned wailing about those poor
boys in Iraq, or some other subject. It's getting
annoying.

[MKSheppard]

This would be a perfectly acceptable way to keep them seperate without resorting to such drastic measures as bringing out the national guard. Obviously, this would be a very long-term plan.

Obviously, you would need me as a fall back plan
in case they don't cooperate with your sleight of
hand tactics.

[Stravo]

I know, I know, but it's like teasing my cats. You knwo what they're going to do but you just want to see them do it.

I could say the same thing about you Stravo, you've
been rather predictable lately. Usually once a week
you post some impassioned wailing about those poor
boys in Iraq, or some other subject. It's getting
annoying.

I'm sorry if the other side of the argument annoys you. Perhaps we should all be good little Republican and pretend there is no quagmire in Iraq getting young men and women killed.

[MKSheppard]

Encourage bilingualism. You don't have to make it mandatory for everyone to speak a certain language, but reward people who do.

Bilingualism as in "Learn English/Arabic everyone"
or forcing them to learn English by making everything
they need to do in English?

[Kuja]

Obviously, you would need me as a fall back plan
in case they don't cooperate with your sleight of
hand tactics.

See Shep, you're the ferocious chained beast in the third subbasement of city hall consiting of a concrete bunker and an sealed pressure door with the label "LAST RESORT ONLY".

[aerius]

I could say the same thing about you Stravo, you've
been rather predictable lately. Usually once a week
you post some impassioned wailing about those poor
boys in Iraq, or some other subject. It's getting
annoying.

Speaking of which, thread derailment time. In another forum, some wrote the following.

Many argue and insist that Islam is a "Religion of Peace" rather than a Cult of Death.

To these apologists, sympathizers, and enablers, I say only this...

Actions speak louder than words and no matter how loudly you shout, I just can't hear you over the screams of the dying children.

[MKSheppard]

I'm sorry if the other side of the argument annoys you.

I've heard it a shitload of times before from you;
and it's getting annoying. After the first 1,001
threads I grow tired of it.

[Kuja]

Bilingualism as in "Learn English/Arabic everyone"
or forcing them to learn English by making everything
they need to do in English?

Both make sense. Have the national language (most likely English) used for every higher-level government function. While you shouldn't have to speak it or read it to be a voter (literary tests would be one way of oppressing immigrants, which would be a negative) it could be a requirement for election to public office. Maybe we could make it mandatory for teachers to teach their classes in english, starting in kndergarten. If folks object, point out 1:they have come to this country by their own free will, they weren't forced into it, and 2: there is absolutely nothing wrong with them teaching their kids their native language at home.

[MKSheppard]

Maybe we could make it mandatory for teachers to teach their classes in english, starting in kndergarten. If folks object, point out 1:they have come to this country by their own free will, they weren't forced into it, and 2: there is absolutely nothing wrong with them teaching their kids their native language at home.

Very good points; and if they get violent over
that, you've always got what's buried in city
hall

[Rogue 9]

Hmm.. To me this hypothetical situation sounds a lot like small town America. But, instead of the Muslims of Secularia, you have the Christians of small town America. Change all the occurances of Muslim to Christian in your situation, and that sounds similar to where I grew up.

The Christians where you grew up burned synagogues?

[Darth Wong]

Speaking as a Canadian, I can tell you that forced bilingualism for public office will merely make the Arab minority an even more influential, politically aggressive, and whiny minority than they already are. This particular theory has been tried before. Forced English would be a good idea though; you would need to add an "official language" to the constitution.

[RedImperator]

Mandate all instruction in public schools must be entirely in English after the third grade. Institute mandatory school uniforms for all students, and make the unform requirement include a ban on all outward displays of religion.
If necessary, start busing students from the Muslim enclave to schools with ethnic Secularian majority student bodies, and bus Secularians into the Muslim school.

The key is to integrate the children. The adults can't be forced to integrate, though if necessary I can severely restrict immigration to keep new non-integrated adults from coming in. If there's a Secularian version of the voting rights act, I probably have to make government services and ballots available in Arabic, and the Secularian First Amendment keeps me from instituting Quebec style language laws. But the existance of an ethnic minority enclave isn't necessarily disasterous--look at the history of American immigration--so long as the children are growing up in Secularia, not Little Saudi Arabia. Italian and Irish parents tried to raise their children as Irish and Italian kids in America in the 19th century, but their kids stubbornly grew up to be Americans anyway. The same can be done with these Muslims, so long as the multiculturalism police don't get in the way.

[Stravo]

I'm sorry if the other side of the argument annoys you.

I've heard it a shitload of times before from you;
and it's getting annoying. After the first 1,001
threads I grow tired of it.

Lesee You're the guy that constantly likes to show pictures of explosions, dead people and advoctaing mass murder of civilians and you're annoyed by me pointing out that there are gaping holes in this administration's actions?? Let me guess...you're not a big fan of free speech...bet if we threatened to take that right to bear arms away you would be the first up on your feet screaming for blood.

[Kuja]

The key is to integrate the children.

I agree that this is the keystone. Everything will be for shit if the kids grow up to be clones of their parents.

[aerius]

Have the national language (most likely English) used for every higher-level government function. While you shouldn't have to speak it or read it to be a voter (literary tests would be one way of oppressing immigrants, which would be a negative) it could be a requirement for election to public office.

Oppressing immigrants who refuse to learn our language is a positive. Why should they be allowed to vote if they can't read and understand our official language? Understanding the official national language is part of the requirements of citizenship. No English, no vote.

[Rogue 9]

Have the national language (most likely English) used for every higher-level government function. While you shouldn't have to speak it or read it to be a voter (literary tests would be one way of oppressing immigrants, which would be a negative) it could be a requirement for election to public office.

Oppressing immigrants who refuse to learn our language is a positive. Why should they be allowed to vote if they can't read and understand our official language? Understanding the official national language is part of the requirements of citizenship. No English, no vote.

[Old South Dixiecrat] And all citizens must pass their literacy tests to vote! [/Old South Dixiecrat]

Much like forced bilingualism in Canada, required literacy for voting has been tried in the United States and not only didn't work, but was used as one of the more insidious tools of the segregationists.

[aerius]

Speaking as a Canadian, I can tell you that forced bilingualism for public office will merely make the Arab minority an even more influential, politically aggressive, and whiny minority than they already are. This particular theory has been tried before.

True, but that's because the rest of Canada doesn't have the spine to tell the Quebecers to go fuck themselves.

[Kuja]

Have the national language (most likely English) used for every higher-level government function. While you shouldn't have to speak it or read it to be a voter (literary tests would be one way of oppressing immigrants, which would be a negative) it could be a requirement for election to public office.

Oppressing immigrants who refuse to learn our language is a positive. Why should they be allowed to vote if they can't read and understand our official language? Understanding the official national language is part of the requirements of citizenship. No English, no vote.

I was thinking of the post-Civil War antics of the Southern states, who tried to get around the new race laws by passing laws like literary tests, and sicne most former slaves didn't know how to read, they couldn't vote.

In our situation, Islamic immigrants would react the same way, pointing out that sicne their home country didn't have them learn english, forcing them to speak it to vote would be unfair, and they would be right.

This would be counterbalanced by the waiting time to become a citizen, during which they would likely start learning at least pidgin english, and by the fact that all government forms and documents would be in english, forcing them to learn it if they didn't want to go find help every time. And the fact that potential representatives would have to learn english means that the voting pool would be limited, and with kids growing up in more secular schools and hopefully gettign a broader outlook, the more moderate and liberal factions would eventually prevail. Hopefully.

[Darth Wong]

The situation in the Old South is not quite analogous to this situation, since the slaves in the Old South were natural-born citizens, not landed immigrants. I would say that if the situation reaches the point that we really want to curb the growth of this enclave, immigrants should have to pass literacy tests to get into the country at all, never mind voting.

Children growing up in Secularia would presumably learn English in the schools, thus making literacy tests redundant.

[Kuja]

The situation in the Old South is not quite analogous to this situation, since the slaves in the Old South were natural-born citizens, not landed immigrants. I would say that if the situation reaches the point that we really want to curb the growth of this enclave, immigrants should have to pass literacy tests to get into the country at all, never mind voting.

Children growing up in Secularia would presumably learn English in the schools, thus making literacy tests redundant.

Good points, all three.

[Xenophobe3691]

For this, I'm going to consider another population, Insular in a way that makes Islam look openly xenophilic, and secluded for over a millenia before Islam even existed...

Judaism.

As a group, Jews have remained completely mistrustful of outsiders, and have actively avoided, for the most part, dealing with any not their own. One of the main reasons for this has been a vicious loop, first Jews keep to themselves, then the community mistrusts them because they keep to themselves, so they start shunning them, Jews feel like outsiders and shut themselves out even farther, until you reach a point where an intermarriage is considered a death to the community.

Unfortunately, the freedom now given in the US, Canada, and Europe has removed the mentality of "Us against Them" and allowed Jews to assimilate into the greater society. Now, Intermarriage and outright dropping of the religion is the greatest threat to Judaism, one never before seen.

So, in that light, I would first offer them complete equality. (I'm hoping that I can institute crushing taxes like those in Europe...) Offer public education that emphasizes rational thought, such as the Physical Sciences and Mathematics, as well as classes in History and Civics to ensure that the children are well grounded in just how damn lucky they are to be in my little "Nation of the Free". Religion is not to be put in the schools. Private religious schools are allowed, but the core subjects of Physical Sciences, Mathematics, History, and Civics must be in their core curricula as well. Nobody's escaping my indoctrination, dammit!

Primary and Secondary education would be mandatory, of course. Introduce a few State run channels that provide news, education, stuff like that, PBC or BBC in style.

To offset the highly insulated nature of the community itself, I might just institute mandatory conscription at the end of High School. As a small city state, it shouldn't be too expensive, and it would also remove an undisciplined element from the job market, and it would provide these children with skills. Maybe institute an analog to the G.I. Bill, where students afterwards could go to a University, a way of educating them even more...




I feel bad for these people, their taxes are gonna go out the roof...

[SWPIGWANG]

What is the problem?

Since they apperanetly respects the rule of law, not much needs to be done anyway. Since they are an minority, they can not effective force consitutional change nor impose their culture effectively on the rest of the population outside the enclave. In any case their power would diminish as the second generation grows up, as the enclave can't close the boarders to the outside world. Immigration might have to be curbed a little, but that sort of control is in petty much ever state to begin with.

And Islam is not all that dangerous in itself. If given wealth and a sizable middle class, the middle age's enlightened and tolerant Islam may very well come back, and it is no more harm than christianity. As long as one can prevent religion from interfering with the state or violating laws, one does not need to interfer with religion.

As for hate crime, crack down as normal.

[Elheru Aran]

In Nigeria, there's a sizeable Islamic community. Islam is held by roughly forty-five percent of the population; forty-five are Christian, or some variant thereof; Jews are an nonenitity; and the other ten percent are native religions of some kind or other.

For the most part, Nigerians get along pretty well with each other-- there's a good bit of mutual derision, but that's natural, and everybody actually gets along all the better for it. The constitution carefully avoids adherence to any specific religion (as well it should); however, it does mandate English as the national language (necessary because there are over 250 tribal languages, and countless dialects thereof) for government and schools.

There have been uprisings and the like by Moslem and Christian alike; in all the cases when this has happened, the government waits for awhile to let its main impetus blow over, and then sends in the troops with live ammo ("crowd control" is generally pretty violent-- think the '68 Democratic Nat'l Convention). The uprising over, everybody lies low for awhile, and then they resume business as usual and go back to the mutual argle-bargle.

To be sure, Nigeria is very different; in its case, Islam has been around for a good time (since it was consolidated into a colony, and long before). Thus, the people have much more experience living together. The Christians are actually in the position of the Muslims in Darth Wong's scenario, in fact, but their long experience in living together has led to a mutual understanding. In short-- "i scratch your back, you scratch mine", and when that's broken, there's trouble.

The solution to Wong's scenario, really, is to have a mutual understanding like this. Make sure the immigrants are cognizant of the fact that if they fuck up, they're fucked; but also make carefully sure that your own inhabitants get the same message.

[Bob the Gunslinger]

For this, I'm going to consider another population, Insular in a way that makes Islam look openly xenophilic, and secluded for over a millenia before Islam even existed...

Judaism.

As a group, Jews have remained completely mistrustful of outsiders, and have actively avoided, for the most part, dealing with any not their own. One of the main reasons for this has been a vicious loop, first Jews keep to themselves, then the community mistrusts them because they keep to themselves, so they start shunning them, Jews feel like outsiders and shut themselves out even farther, until you reach a point where an intermarriage is considered a death to the community.

Unfortunately, the freedom now given in the US, Canada, and Europe has removed the mentality of "Us against Them" and allowed Jews to assimilate into the greater society. Now, Intermarriage and outright dropping of the religion is the greatest threat to Judaism, one never before seen.

What the fuck are you talking about? Do you know anything about Jewish history?

Back in the day, the Jews were so enamored with greek culture, that most of them had assimilated and adopted helenistic culture. If it weren't for Antiochus Epiphanes and his sudden clamp down on Jewish participation in Greek society and vandalization of Jewish cities and temples, the Jews probably would have gon the way of the Huns or the Babylonians or any other group that isn't distinct as a culture today.

Similarly, Jews in the early Muslim empires assimilated to the point of taking arabic and muslim names and changing their religious practices.
Every other situation of isolation has been inforced on the Jews by outside forces. This is where we get the terms "ghetto" and "diaspora."

The german Jews in the 1800s and early 1900s tried very hard to assimilate, even violating many of the tenets of their religion, many even outright converting. It didn't help them in the 1940s, though, when the nazis isolated them yet again.

In France, the Jews were assimilating just fine until the Dreyfus affair.

In America the Jews have assimilated about as far as they ever had before, but the new rash of antisemitism (real or perceived) in Europe and America has caused a lot of this "We gotta stick together" attitude to form recently. It's probably only a matter of time until some incident (real or perceived) causes the Jews to isolate themselves or leave the country or forces them to. After all, it's not like all the Jews took off for Israel in 1949--they were comfortable where they were and their religious identity was far overshadowed by their national identity.

The story just repeats itself a lot.

[Durandal]

Hmm.. To me this hypothetical situation sounds a lot like small town America. But, instead of the Muslims of Secularia, you have the Christians of small town America. Change all the occurances of Muslim to Christian in your situation, and that sounds similar to where I grew up.

The Christians where you grew up burned synagogues?

They probably burned crosses on those dern niggers' front lawns.

Anyway, in a situation like this, it's time to start redrawing the school district lines. As others have said, the key is the children. If we get Muslim kids going to ethnically diverse schools, they're going to try to fit in. That means listening to popular music, adopting popular slang, etc ... This also carries the benefit that other kids will stop seeing Muslim kids as a threat or invasive force, since they'll now associate with them on a social and personal level.

As Stravo said, we'll have 'em listening to hip-hop and walking around with their waistbands around their knees in no time.

Go Western culture!