Memos tracked to Kinkos where Burkett has account!
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Memos tracked to Kinkos where Burkett has account!
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/ar ... Sep15.html
BS Guard Documents Traced to Tex. Kinko's
Records Reportedly Faxed From Abilene
By Michael Dobbs
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, September 16, 2004; Page A06
Documents allegedly written by a deceased officer that raised questions about President Bush's service with the Texas Air National Guard bore markings showing they had been faxed to CBS News from a Kinko's copy shop in Abilene, Tex., according to another former Guard officer who was shown the records by the network.
The markings provide one piece of evidence suggesting a source for the documents, whose authenticity has been hotly disputed since CBS aired them in a "60 Minutes" broadcast Sept. 8. The network has declined to name the person who provided them, saying the source was confidential, or to explain how the documents came to light after more than three decades.
There is only one Kinko's in Abilene, and it is 21 miles from the Baird, Tex., home of retired Texas National Guard officer Bill Burkett, who has been named by several news outlets as a possible source for the documents.
Robert Strong, who was one of three people interviewed by "60 minutes," said he was shown copies of the documents by CBS anchor Dan Rather and producer Mary Mapes on Sept. 5, three days before the broadcast. He said at least one of the documents bore a faxed header indicating it had been sent from a Kinko's in Abilene.
Strong's comments came as CBS News President Andrew Heyward in an interview acknowledged that there were "unresolved issues" that the network wanted "to get to the bottom of." Since the broadcast, critics have pointed to a host of unexplained problems about the memos, which bore dates from 1972 and 1973, including signs that they had been written on a computer rather than a Vietnam-era typewriter.
"I feel that we did a tremendous amount of reporting before the story went on the air or we wouldn't have put it on the air," Heyward said in an interview last night, while acknowledging "a ferocious debate about these documents."
Asked what role Burkett may have played in CBS's reporting of the report, Heyward said: "I'm not going to get into any discussion of who the sources are."
Burkett, who has accused Bush aides of ordering the destruction of some portions of the president's National Guard record because they might have been politically embarrassing, did not return telephone calls to his home. His lawyer, David Van Os, issued a statement on Burkett's behalf saying he "no longer trusts any possible outcome of speaking to the press on any issue regarding George W. Bush and does not choose to dignify recent spurious attacks upon his character with any comment."
In news interviews earlier this year, Burkett said he overheard a telephone conversation in the spring of 1997 in which top Bush aides asked the head of the Texas National Guard to sanitize Bush's files as he was running for a second term as governor of Texas. Several days later, he said, he saw dozens of pages from Bush's military file dumped in a trash can at Camp Mabry, the Guard's headquarters.
The Bush aides Burkett named as participants in the telephone conversation were Chief of Staff Joe M. Allbaugh and spokespersons Karen Hughes and Dan Bartlett. All three Bush aides and former Texas National Guard Maj. Gen. Daniel James have strongly denied the allegations.
Suspicions that Burkett could have been a source for the CBS documents first surfaced earlier this week when Newsweek magazine reported that Mapes flew to Texas to interview him over the summer. Yesterday, the New York Times reported that a CBS staffer, speaking on condition of anonymity, confirmed that Burkett was a source for the "60 Minutes" report but "did not know the exact role he played."
Yesterday reporters from several news organizations were camped near Blair, Tex., outside Burkett's home, which is on a working ranch, with a gate barring access to a one-story farmhouse and a pickup truck outside. At 6 p.m. Central Time, Burkett walked to the gate on his cane with a black dog by his side to collect his mail. He refused to answer questions over whether he provided the documents to CBS.
"Get out my way," he told the reporters. "You need to go home."
Earlier this year, Burkett gave interviews to numerous news outlets, including The Washington Post, alleging corruption and malfeasance at the top of the Texas National Guard, many of which have never been substantiated. He has also been a named source for several reports by USA Today, which reported Monday that it had independently obtained copies of the disputed memos soon after the broadcast.
Like CBS News, USA Today has declined to name the source of its memos on the grounds of confidentiality.
Burkett, who served with the Texas National Guard in an administrative capacity before his 1998 retirement, has been involved in a bitter dispute with the Guard over medical benefits after suffering from a tropical disease following a military assignment to Panama. He has told reporters that he suffered a nervous breakdown and was hospitalized for depression after he left the Guard.
Burkett has provided different accounts of exactly what Bush records he allegedly saw in the trash can at Camp Mabry. At times, he has described them as "payroll-type documents" and performance assessments. But in an Aug. 14 posting to a Web log, www.steveverdon.com, he said he saw "a two-page counseling statement" signed by Lt. Col. Jerry Killian, the officer named by "60 Minutes" as the author of its Bush memos.
Author James Moore, who relied on Burkett as a primary source for a book attacking Bush as having wriggled out of his Guard service, said in an interview yesterday that he did not think Burkett provided the memos to CBS. "His life is complicated enough already, and I don't why he would make further complications for himself," Moore said.
On Capitol Hill, meanwhile, 39 Republican House members, led by Majority Whip Roy Blunt (Mo.), wrote a letter to Heyward demanding that CBS retract its report. Accusing the network of becoming "part of a campaign to deceive the public and to defame the president," the lawmakers said: "CBS reporters would not accept such behavior from public officials like ourselves, and we cannot accept it from them."
Separately, Rep. Christopher Cox (R-Calif.), citing reports in The Post and the Dallas Morning News, asked that a House communications subcommittee investigate what he called "the continued use of CBS News of apparently forged documents" intended to damage Bush's reputation and "influence the outcome of the 2004 presidential election." But the panel's chairman, Rep. Joe Barton (R-Tex.), rejected the request, saying that the oversight of network news should be left to the viewing public and news media.
In a related development, White House press secretary Scott McClellan hinted that more documents regarding Bush's National Guard service may soon be released. Asked whether officials in the White House have seen unreleased documents, McClellan called that "a very real possibility." Other officials with knowledge of the situation said more documents had indeed been uncovered and would be released in the coming days.
Staff writers Howard Kurtz and Dana Milbank in Washington and Sylvia Moreno in Baird, Tex., contributed to this report.
*************************
http://kmclive.com/
~10:41pm~ EST
JUST GOT OFF THE PHONE WITH ABILENE KINKOS: Bill Burkett has a standing account with the Kinkos in Abilene Texas, and while the lady who answered the phone would not be more specific she did say Burkett was in there last week....
**********************
Soooo........this pretty much discredits Burkett's claims of Bush
not doing anything. Alright, Shep, we get it. You know the rules about vendettas.
-MoO
BS Guard Documents Traced to Tex. Kinko's
Records Reportedly Faxed From Abilene
By Michael Dobbs
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, September 16, 2004; Page A06
Documents allegedly written by a deceased officer that raised questions about President Bush's service with the Texas Air National Guard bore markings showing they had been faxed to CBS News from a Kinko's copy shop in Abilene, Tex., according to another former Guard officer who was shown the records by the network.
The markings provide one piece of evidence suggesting a source for the documents, whose authenticity has been hotly disputed since CBS aired them in a "60 Minutes" broadcast Sept. 8. The network has declined to name the person who provided them, saying the source was confidential, or to explain how the documents came to light after more than three decades.
There is only one Kinko's in Abilene, and it is 21 miles from the Baird, Tex., home of retired Texas National Guard officer Bill Burkett, who has been named by several news outlets as a possible source for the documents.
Robert Strong, who was one of three people interviewed by "60 minutes," said he was shown copies of the documents by CBS anchor Dan Rather and producer Mary Mapes on Sept. 5, three days before the broadcast. He said at least one of the documents bore a faxed header indicating it had been sent from a Kinko's in Abilene.
Strong's comments came as CBS News President Andrew Heyward in an interview acknowledged that there were "unresolved issues" that the network wanted "to get to the bottom of." Since the broadcast, critics have pointed to a host of unexplained problems about the memos, which bore dates from 1972 and 1973, including signs that they had been written on a computer rather than a Vietnam-era typewriter.
"I feel that we did a tremendous amount of reporting before the story went on the air or we wouldn't have put it on the air," Heyward said in an interview last night, while acknowledging "a ferocious debate about these documents."
Asked what role Burkett may have played in CBS's reporting of the report, Heyward said: "I'm not going to get into any discussion of who the sources are."
Burkett, who has accused Bush aides of ordering the destruction of some portions of the president's National Guard record because they might have been politically embarrassing, did not return telephone calls to his home. His lawyer, David Van Os, issued a statement on Burkett's behalf saying he "no longer trusts any possible outcome of speaking to the press on any issue regarding George W. Bush and does not choose to dignify recent spurious attacks upon his character with any comment."
In news interviews earlier this year, Burkett said he overheard a telephone conversation in the spring of 1997 in which top Bush aides asked the head of the Texas National Guard to sanitize Bush's files as he was running for a second term as governor of Texas. Several days later, he said, he saw dozens of pages from Bush's military file dumped in a trash can at Camp Mabry, the Guard's headquarters.
The Bush aides Burkett named as participants in the telephone conversation were Chief of Staff Joe M. Allbaugh and spokespersons Karen Hughes and Dan Bartlett. All three Bush aides and former Texas National Guard Maj. Gen. Daniel James have strongly denied the allegations.
Suspicions that Burkett could have been a source for the CBS documents first surfaced earlier this week when Newsweek magazine reported that Mapes flew to Texas to interview him over the summer. Yesterday, the New York Times reported that a CBS staffer, speaking on condition of anonymity, confirmed that Burkett was a source for the "60 Minutes" report but "did not know the exact role he played."
Yesterday reporters from several news organizations were camped near Blair, Tex., outside Burkett's home, which is on a working ranch, with a gate barring access to a one-story farmhouse and a pickup truck outside. At 6 p.m. Central Time, Burkett walked to the gate on his cane with a black dog by his side to collect his mail. He refused to answer questions over whether he provided the documents to CBS.
"Get out my way," he told the reporters. "You need to go home."
Earlier this year, Burkett gave interviews to numerous news outlets, including The Washington Post, alleging corruption and malfeasance at the top of the Texas National Guard, many of which have never been substantiated. He has also been a named source for several reports by USA Today, which reported Monday that it had independently obtained copies of the disputed memos soon after the broadcast.
Like CBS News, USA Today has declined to name the source of its memos on the grounds of confidentiality.
Burkett, who served with the Texas National Guard in an administrative capacity before his 1998 retirement, has been involved in a bitter dispute with the Guard over medical benefits after suffering from a tropical disease following a military assignment to Panama. He has told reporters that he suffered a nervous breakdown and was hospitalized for depression after he left the Guard.
Burkett has provided different accounts of exactly what Bush records he allegedly saw in the trash can at Camp Mabry. At times, he has described them as "payroll-type documents" and performance assessments. But in an Aug. 14 posting to a Web log, www.steveverdon.com, he said he saw "a two-page counseling statement" signed by Lt. Col. Jerry Killian, the officer named by "60 Minutes" as the author of its Bush memos.
Author James Moore, who relied on Burkett as a primary source for a book attacking Bush as having wriggled out of his Guard service, said in an interview yesterday that he did not think Burkett provided the memos to CBS. "His life is complicated enough already, and I don't why he would make further complications for himself," Moore said.
On Capitol Hill, meanwhile, 39 Republican House members, led by Majority Whip Roy Blunt (Mo.), wrote a letter to Heyward demanding that CBS retract its report. Accusing the network of becoming "part of a campaign to deceive the public and to defame the president," the lawmakers said: "CBS reporters would not accept such behavior from public officials like ourselves, and we cannot accept it from them."
Separately, Rep. Christopher Cox (R-Calif.), citing reports in The Post and the Dallas Morning News, asked that a House communications subcommittee investigate what he called "the continued use of CBS News of apparently forged documents" intended to damage Bush's reputation and "influence the outcome of the 2004 presidential election." But the panel's chairman, Rep. Joe Barton (R-Tex.), rejected the request, saying that the oversight of network news should be left to the viewing public and news media.
In a related development, White House press secretary Scott McClellan hinted that more documents regarding Bush's National Guard service may soon be released. Asked whether officials in the White House have seen unreleased documents, McClellan called that "a very real possibility." Other officials with knowledge of the situation said more documents had indeed been uncovered and would be released in the coming days.
Staff writers Howard Kurtz and Dana Milbank in Washington and Sylvia Moreno in Baird, Tex., contributed to this report.
*************************
http://kmclive.com/
~10:41pm~ EST
JUST GOT OFF THE PHONE WITH ABILENE KINKOS: Bill Burkett has a standing account with the Kinkos in Abilene Texas, and while the lady who answered the phone would not be more specific she did say Burkett was in there last week....
**********************
Soooo........this pretty much discredits Burkett's claims of Bush
not doing anything. Alright, Shep, we get it. You know the rules about vendettas.
-MoO
"If scientists and inventors who develop disease cures and useful technologies don't get lifetime royalties, I'd like to know what fucking rationale you have for some guy getting lifetime royalties for writing an episode of Full House." - Mike Wong
"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
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Re: Memos tracked to Kinkos where Burkett has account!
Alright, Shep, we get it. You know the rules about vendettas.
Elfpenis has been sooooo outspoken lately about the so-called
"Shit Boat Veterans" it's so fun to throw it back in his face
Elfpenis has been sooooo outspoken lately about the so-called
"Shit Boat Veterans" it's so fun to throw it back in his face
"If scientists and inventors who develop disease cures and useful technologies don't get lifetime royalties, I'd like to know what fucking rationale you have for some guy getting lifetime royalties for writing an episode of Full House." - Mike Wong
"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
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Re: Memos tracked to Kinkos where Burkett has account!
Well, do it in the thread that it came up in (ie. the nearly 10 page thing where you've been arguing back and forth with him). Don't start an entirely new thread to send the same message, since that looks conspicuously like a vendetta.MKSheppard wrote:Alright, Shep, we get it. You know the rules about vendettas.
Elfpenis has been sooooo outspoken lately about the so-called
"Shit Boat Veterans" it's so fun to throw it back in his face
"Sometimes I think you WANT us to fail." "Shut up, just shut up!" -Two Guys from Kabul
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Re: Memos tracked to Kinkos where Burkett has account!
Isn't that thread getting a bit too long for effective moderation anyway? AndMaster of Ossus wrote:Don't start an entirely new thread to send the same message, since that looks conspicuously like a vendetta.
besides, this is a breaking lead in the story.
"If scientists and inventors who develop disease cures and useful technologies don't get lifetime royalties, I'd like to know what fucking rationale you have for some guy getting lifetime royalties for writing an episode of Full House." - Mike Wong
"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
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Re: Memos tracked to Kinkos where Burkett has account!
Right, which is why I didn't just delete the thing and send you a message to re-post it on the other thread. However, please don't START a thread by attacking any particular member.MKSheppard wrote:Isn't that thread getting a bit too long for effective moderation anyway? And
besides, this is a breaking lead in the story.
And besides, we all know that KKKarl Rove must have deliberately left this damning paper trail to throw ardent investigators off the scent of the massive right-wing conspiracy to take over the world.
"Sometimes I think you WANT us to fail." "Shut up, just shut up!" -Two Guys from Kabul
Latinum Star Recipient; Hacker's Cross Award Winner
"one soler flar can vapririze the planit or malt the nickl in lass than millasacit" -Bagara1000
"Happiness is just a Flaming Moe away."
Latinum Star Recipient; Hacker's Cross Award Winner
"one soler flar can vapririze the planit or malt the nickl in lass than millasacit" -Bagara1000
"Happiness is just a Flaming Moe away."
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Re: Memos tracked to Kinkos where Burkett has account!
Yes, the Washington Post is really part of the Moon Cult, and is secretlyMaster of Ossus wrote:And besides, we all know that KKKarl Rove must have deliberately left this damning paper trail to throw ardent investigators off the scent of the massive right-wing conspiracy to take over the world.
controlled by KKKarl Rove.
"If scientists and inventors who develop disease cures and useful technologies don't get lifetime royalties, I'd like to know what fucking rationale you have for some guy getting lifetime royalties for writing an episode of Full House." - Mike Wong
"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
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From Charles at LFG:
The latest excuse/theory/fever dream being floated by various DNC operatives is that the CBS Killian memos may have been planted by Republicans, trying to discredit CBS News and/or the Kerry campaign.
But really. Think about it. You’re the evil Karl Rove, nefarious mastermind behind the Bushitler hegemony. You’ve hatched a diabolical plan to plant forged documents with CBS News and/or the Kerry campaign, to make them look bad when the forgeries are discovered.
Would you, Karl (or one of your diabolical underlings), simply open Microsoft Word and begin typing with the default settings? Print it, crumple it and smooth it out, and fax it to yourself twice, and think that was good enough?
Or would you spend a few dollars at the local thrift store, buy an old typewriter, and type your fake document with it, so that your intended patsy wouldn’t immediately realize what you were up to?
You’d think the evil Karl Rove would have spent a few dollars and a couple of hours to make sure that an especially observant drone at CBS News didn’t immediately recognize documents created with a modern word processor.
How could the evil Karl Rove (or one of his diabolical underlings) have known that CBS News really was that stupid?
The latest excuse/theory/fever dream being floated by various DNC operatives is that the CBS Killian memos may have been planted by Republicans, trying to discredit CBS News and/or the Kerry campaign.
But really. Think about it. You’re the evil Karl Rove, nefarious mastermind behind the Bushitler hegemony. You’ve hatched a diabolical plan to plant forged documents with CBS News and/or the Kerry campaign, to make them look bad when the forgeries are discovered.
Would you, Karl (or one of your diabolical underlings), simply open Microsoft Word and begin typing with the default settings? Print it, crumple it and smooth it out, and fax it to yourself twice, and think that was good enough?
Or would you spend a few dollars at the local thrift store, buy an old typewriter, and type your fake document with it, so that your intended patsy wouldn’t immediately realize what you were up to?
You’d think the evil Karl Rove would have spent a few dollars and a couple of hours to make sure that an especially observant drone at CBS News didn’t immediately recognize documents created with a modern word processor.
How could the evil Karl Rove (or one of his diabolical underlings) have known that CBS News really was that stupid?
"If scientists and inventors who develop disease cures and useful technologies don't get lifetime royalties, I'd like to know what fucking rationale you have for some guy getting lifetime royalties for writing an episode of Full House." - Mike Wong
"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
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This is not comparable to the Shit Boat Veterans, who have been outright lying. Even if the memos turn out to be fake, the information in them is correct. This is confirmed both by the DoD documents and by Killian's own secretary, who has been tracked down and interviewed and who says that the brouhaha over Bush was all over the office when she was there.
http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=52966
http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=52966
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing
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"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
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"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
No, but the SBVets never pretended to be a neutral information source with tons of credibility like the CBS-news flagship. Everyone would be far more sceptical towards sources like the SBVets or Moore than they would be to 60M.Darth Wong wrote:This is not comparable to the Shit Boat Veterans, who have been outright lying.
So why the need to present forgeries as fact? Why use documents of questionable validity if it wasn't needed since they knew that the info was accurate anyway why not use the authentic sources instead?Darth Wong wrote:Even if the memos turn out to be fake, the information in them is correct.
60M's own experts warned them! I don't feel the least bit sorry for them and the fact that they managed to completly bury the story of Bush ANG exit under that of their own cheating and poor journalism is poetic justice. CBS must be high on Kerry's shitlist now.
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Support the KKK environmental program - keep the Arctic white!
Ah, the demented logic of the Sheepfucker!
Let's assume for the sake of argument that the memos are forgeries (even though Killian's secretary says the content was accurate). This still doesn't change the fact that Numbnuts deserted the Air National Guard in 1972. Every undisputed document shows Dubya going AWOL. Not a single eyewitness from the Alabama unit has come forward to say he served with Dubya -and collect $50,000 by doing so! We can add the fact that Dubya's yellow streak didn't end in the early 70s, nor his willingness to lie about it. (cf My Pet Goat)
The Shit Boaters can't get past the dustjacket of their book before being caught in a lie.
But in the baroque mind of the Sheepfucker, there's some sort of equivalence between the two, and a possible forgery proves that Dubya showed up as ordered.
P.S. I'll see your " " and raise you " "!
Let's assume for the sake of argument that the memos are forgeries (even though Killian's secretary says the content was accurate). This still doesn't change the fact that Numbnuts deserted the Air National Guard in 1972. Every undisputed document shows Dubya going AWOL. Not a single eyewitness from the Alabama unit has come forward to say he served with Dubya -and collect $50,000 by doing so! We can add the fact that Dubya's yellow streak didn't end in the early 70s, nor his willingness to lie about it. (cf My Pet Goat)
The Shit Boaters can't get past the dustjacket of their book before being caught in a lie.
But in the baroque mind of the Sheepfucker, there's some sort of equivalence between the two, and a possible forgery proves that Dubya showed up as ordered.
P.S. I'll see your " " and raise you " "!
His secretary says they're forgeries. Of course, his secretary couldn't possibly be biased, what with a quote about Bush being "Selected, not elected." Bush's record shows he had more than the required number of points each year, including in 1972.Elfdart wrote:Ah, the demented logic of the Sheepfucker!
Let's assume for the sake of argument that the memos are forgeries (even though Killian's secretary says the content was accurate). This still doesn't change the fact that Numbnuts deserted the Air National Guard in 1972. Every undisputed document shows Dubya going AWOL. Not a single eyewitness from the Alabama unit has come forward to say he served with Dubya -and collect $50,000 by doing so! We can add the fact that Dubya's yellow streak didn't end in the early 70s, nor his willingness to lie about it. (cf My Pet Goat)
The Shit Boaters can't get past the dustjacket of their book before being caught in a lie.
But in the baroque mind of the Sheepfucker, there's some sort of equivalence between the two, and a possible forgery proves that Dubya showed up as ordered.
P.S. I'll see your " " and raise you " "!
"preemptive killing of cops might not be such a bad idea from a personal saftey[sic] standpoint..." --Keevan Colton
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You've gotta love Bush-defenders and the way they mindlessly ignore information that's contrary to their worldview. She's "biased", therefore she's a liar, and everything she says should be discounted ... except for the part about the letters being forgeriesBeowulf wrote:His secretary says they're forgeries. Of course, his secretary couldn't possibly be biased, what with a quote about Bush being "Selected, not elected." Bush's record shows he had more than the required number of points each year, including in 1972.
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
There's a reason why I didn't bring her up. Elfie did. He's trying to use a source to bolster his case that the memos aren't fake, when that same source says they are fake. He can't try to have it both ways...Darth Wong wrote:You've gotta love Bush-defenders and the way they mindlessly ignore information that's contrary to their worldview. She's "biased", therefore she's a liar, and everything she says should be discounted ... except for the part about the letters being forgeriesBeowulf wrote:His secretary says they're forgeries. Of course, his secretary couldn't possibly be biased, what with a quote about Bush being "Selected, not elected." Bush's record shows he had more than the required number of points each year, including in 1972.
"preemptive killing of cops might not be such a bad idea from a personal saftey[sic] standpoint..." --Keevan Colton
"There's a word for bias you can't see: Yours." -- William Saletan
"There's a word for bias you can't see: Yours." -- William Saletan
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Again, you're missing the point: WHO CARES WHERE THEY CAME FROM, if the information in them is correct? And EVERYTHING points to that information being correct. Bush's professor at school, Killian's secretary, the DoD records. That particular memo could have come from Howard Dean's ass and the case against Bush would still be solid.Beowulf wrote:There's a reason why I didn't bring her up. Elfie did. He's trying to use a source to bolster his case that the memos aren't fake, when that same source says they are fake. He can't try to have it both ways...Darth Wong wrote:You've gotta love Bush-defenders and the way they mindlessly ignore information that's contrary to their worldview. She's "biased", therefore she's a liar, and everything she says should be discounted ... except for the part about the letters being forgeriesBeowulf wrote:His secretary says they're forgeries. Of course, his secretary couldn't possibly be biased, what with a quote about Bush being "Selected, not elected." Bush's record shows he had more than the required number of points each year, including in 1972.
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"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
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Nobody, if the case did not hinge upon those particular documents. Everyone can be fooled, but if the case is still solid, then NO, it doesn't matter. That's the difference between this situation and the Bush Administration's pretenses for going to war in Iraq; in this case, the overall body of evidence is still strong without this particular document; in Bush's case, his forged documents were pretty much the only thing he had going.Beowulf wrote:You're missing the point: Who cares that a news organization tried to use forgeries in a news story?
PS. In case you didn't notice, this election is actually not about Dan Rather.
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
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Beuwulf Logic applied ...
Bogus News wrote:Archivists in London have recently uncovered new documents allegedly written by Isaac Newton, claiming that 2 + 2 = 4. These documents' authenticity have come under heavy criticism, as they are written on a parchment that experts say would not be in great circulation for another hundred years. Isaac Newton's great, great, great, great grandson has come forward and said that the documents are probably forgeries.
However, several prominent mathematicians and physicists have come forward saying that the content of the documents is accurate and that there was general consensus in the scientific community at the time that 2 and 2 did equal 4.
Critics have denounced the authorities confirming the veracity of the documents' contents as "biased," pointing out that 2 + 2 = 4 is a fundamental assumption in all of their research papers and journal submissions.
Damien Sorresso
"Ever see what them computa bitchez do to numbas? It ain't natural. Numbas ain't supposed to be code, they supposed to quantify shit."
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Ah, Hello Elfpenis!Elfdart wrote:Ah, the demented logic of the Sheepfucker!
I've got a bunch of hundreds here, they're forgeries, but the contentLet's assume for the sake of argument that the memos are forgeries (even though Killian's secretary says the content was accurate).
is accurate!
Seriously, do you realize what these documents do? They completely bury
the "bush was AWOL" meme under a pile of bullshit. Five years of working
on this story, and CBS gets taken for a bunch of forged documents
I mean shit, KKKarl Rove couldn't have planned it better
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"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
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I don't think Shep is so much saying the fact the documents are forgeries proves Bush didn't desert so much as he's gloating that CBS News has, through rank incompetence, blown up the potential "Deserter!" attack on Bush, presuming Kerry would have ever had the balls to use it. The next time it comes up in any argument anywhere, the Bush side will reply, "Oh yeah? Got any forged memos to prove it?" or something along those lines. It won't change any minds, but it will prevent the deserter charge from changing anyone's minds, either.
Any city gets what it admires, will pay for, and, ultimately, deserves…We want and deserve tin-can architecture in a tinhorn culture. And we will probably be judged not by the monuments we build but by those we have destroyed.--Ada Louise Huxtable, "Farewell to Penn Station", New York Times editorial, 30 October 1963
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That's true. But then again, there were also incredible holes in the "Swift Boat Veterans for Bullshit" ads and yet they caused a significant plunge in Kerry's poll numbers. Ultimately, one has to simply confront the cold reality that Bush's team has outplayed Kerry's team in every way. When you look at how the Kerry team didn't even try to respond to the Swift Boat Veterans for Bullshit until they were ALREADY hit hard in the polls while the Bush team jumps on anything and everything that could possibly hurt their Dear Leader within a timeframe typically measured in mere hours, it's pretty clear that you're looking at a political mismatch.RedImperator wrote:I don't think Shep is so much saying the fact the documents are forgeries proves Bush didn't desert so much as he's gloating that CBS News has, through rank incompetence, blown up the potential "Deserter!" attack on Bush, presuming Kerry would have ever had the balls to use it. The next time it comes up in any argument anywhere, the Bush side will reply, "Oh yeah? Got any forged memos to prove it?" or something along those lines. It won't change any minds, but it will prevent the deserter charge from changing anyone's minds, either.
Simply put, Bush's whole team has mastered the art of politics. They've taken Enron, the peak disaster of an administration that has been rife with corporate cronyism, and pushed it under the carpet. They've taken a disastrous occupation in Iraq and turned it into proof of the President's courage and decisiveness. They've taken a president who didn't show up for duty and skipped a flight physical and made him out to be a man of military honour compared to a man who was decorated for valour in battle. They tied Iraq to 9/11, have never apologized for doing it, and are still successfully using that false connection to win favour among voters. They've taken a horrendous record on science research and made it into an example of the President's stand on morality. They've made an unprecedented assault upon the separation of church and state that would have Thomas Jefferson turning in his grave, and turned it into an excuse to whine vociferously about politically correct soccer moms attacking the President for having Christian values. They created a five hundred billion fucking dollar deficit and are still (amazingly enough) successfully warning that the other party might be fiscally irresponsible. More people are in poverty, fewer people have health insurance, and a million have lost their jobs since he came to power yet he routinely blasts the other guy on the economy.
Honestly, we're looking at the fucking Dream Team of politics. I'm convinced that these guys could talk the gullible voting public into voting for a hamburger.
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
That's funny, when Kathleen Willey's story was shown to be a hoax, did it put to rest the story that Bill Clinton was a horny good ole boy?
As far as Dan Rather is concerned, he has been scammed repeatedly by Captain Janks, so if it turns out these memos are fake, big deal. It doesn't change Dubya's status as a deserter.
As far as Dan Rather is concerned, he has been scammed repeatedly by Captain Janks, so if it turns out these memos are fake, big deal. It doesn't change Dubya's status as a deserter.
Clinton had more charisma than Kerry and Bush put together. Charisma goes a lot farther than hoax revelations.Elfdart wrote:That's funny, when Kathleen Willey's story was shown to be a hoax, did it put to rest the story that Bill Clinton was a horny good ole boy?
"Well, it's too bad that thread pilots aren't allow to carry pistols.
Otherwise they would have stopped you." - Pablo Sanchez
Otherwise they would have stopped you." - Pablo Sanchez
There is a massive difference between having your accuser shown not to have a case and having the other side perceived to be forgers. Particularly incompotent forgers. The Willey story dragged on and on and when the dust settled only those who truly followed the case had a clue as to what all happened.
That's funny, when Kathleen Willey's story was shown to be a hoax, did it put to rest the story that Bill Clinton was a horny good ole boy?
This is much more aggregious, much more obvious, and hellishly more important to your average voter. If some woman you don't know turns out to be a liar, who gives a flying frik? If a bunch of admitted political hacks turn out to be lying, exaggerating, or otherwise flexing the truth in overtly partisan ads, most people take that as par for the course. If a respected news agency turns out to be incompotent, particularly CBS with its historical reputation among older Americans, or downright fraudulent, people care. Hell the New York Times still catches flack for Jason Blair. If somebody unknown lies, nobody cares; if somebody well known gets caught with forgeries people care. Rather's refusal to fall on his sword or initially hedge is only making people care more.
Frankly the issue of wether Bush showed up for gaurd duty worries most Americans just about as much as Clinton evading the draft - not a whit. The press being incompotent, partisan hacks, or forgers themselves (or any combination thereof) is MUCH more important in the eyes of most people. Add this to the fact that every media outlet who competes with CBS is smelling blood and it really becomes obvious why the forgeries are perceived to be more important than Bush's attendance record three decades ago.
Very funny, Scotty. Now beam down my clothes.
While it might be a bit unfair that Bush got away with his desertion and Kerry got caught in his that is hardly surprising. Bush is not running on his ANG record but his Presidential record, which Kerry so far has failed to dent in the slightest. Kerry however DO run on his Vietnam record packed with embarasing questionmarks even if it turns out he did nothing wrong. If this had been a race between the Governor and the Senator rather than between the President and the Senator Bush's ANG escapades would have been more intresting.
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Even the Shit Boaters have never accused Kerry of desertion. There are no question marks about Kerry's service. Every credible eyewitness backs his version of what happened and so have all documents. What the fuck are you talking about?CJvR wrote:While it might be a bit unfair that Bush got away with his desertion and Kerry got caught in his that is hardly surprising. Bush is not running on his ANG record but his Presidential record, which Kerry so far has failed to dent in the slightest. Kerry however DO run on his Vietnam record packed with embarasing questionmarks even if it turns out he did nothing wrong. If this had been a race between the Governor and the Senator rather than between the President and the Senator Bush's ANG escapades would have been more intresting.