STGOD 4 OOC Thread (part 2)

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-09-16 01:31am

SirNitram wrote:
Rogue 9 wrote:
SirNitram wrote: We'll be sure to laugh and disregard you autoing stuff with no plausible reason, then. Are you going to actually get on with the STGOD, or endeavour to drown it out in your whining some more?
In that case, I get to disregard all riots on Ix'agal and all other instances of autoing. I have just as much reason as anyone else. They're civilized human beings, and as such will feel guilt.
I'm right I'm right I'm right I'm right!

*Shrug* Well, I am. Could you watch your captain have a man gunned down without trial in cold blood and be just fine with it? I know I couldn't.

Thirdfain · Post by **Thirdfain** » 2004-09-16 01:33am

Thank you, Bugsby.

Bugsby · Post by **Bugsby** » 2004-09-16 01:34am

Rogue 9 wrote:*Shrug* Well, I am. Could you watch your captain have a man gunned down without trial in cold blood and be just fine with it? I know I couldn't.

The silly thing is, you aren't an Asgard marine. Things like "without trial" and "in cold blood" are not necessarily bad things. It is HIGHLY possible to have a culture (just like the Asgard culture) that cares more about justice than the proceedings surrounding justice. Your guy got what he deserved. That's what the Asgard will see. That's what they'll think. Because they're Asgard.

I know you love democracy, but that doesnt mean everyone in the universe is a democrat.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-09-16 01:35am

Thirdfain wrote:
In that case, I get to disregard all riots on Ix'agal and all other instances of autoing. I have just as much reason as anyone else. They're civilized human beings, and as such will feel guilt.
The subjects of the Ix'agal situation: Hardcore fundamentalists who had been mind-tampered by literal foriegn pagan witch monsters and invaded by heretics.

Correct to a point.

The subjeects of this situation: Elite soldiers of a potent nationalist power who saw a captain of an enemy power who had just violated surrender killed. The poweer this captain supportshas allowed it's allies to commit numeerous major atrocities.

They are also human beings who just witnessed a murder. This is a fundamental part of the human psyche.

Am I the only one who thinks these AREN'T similar circumstances?

They're not similar. They work for different reasons. Ix'agal worked because of the fundamentalist mindset. This one works because of the base mindset of a human being. Unless his soldiers are all sadists...

Thirdfain · Post by **Thirdfain** » 2004-09-16 01:36am

This one works because of the base mindset of a human being. Unless his soldiers are all sadists...

Humans kill each other ALL the TIME without feeling enough remorse to fucking well commit treason. Bugsby's post about why you aren't an Asgard marine is particularly telling.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-09-16 01:39am

Thirdfain wrote:
This one works because of the base mindset of a human being. Unless his soldiers are all sadists...
Humans kill each other ALL the TIME without feeling enough remorse to fucking well commit treason. Bugsby's post about why you aren't an Asgard marine is particularly telling.

You know what lands the vast majority of murderers in jail? Either the guilt eats them until they break down and talk, or they brag about it and get bagged. You underestimate the human capacity to keep this kind of thing a close secret.

Bugsby · Post by **Bugsby** » 2004-09-16 01:40am

Rogue 9 wrote:
Thirdfain wrote:
This one works because of the base mindset of a human being. Unless his soldiers are all sadists...
Humans kill each other ALL the TIME without feeling enough remorse to fucking well commit treason. Bugsby's post about why you aren't an Asgard marine is particularly telling.
You know what lands the vast majority of murderers in jail? Either the guilt eats them until they break down and talk, or they brag about it and get bagged. You underestimate the human capacity to keep this kind of thing a close secret.

That's the ONLY possible leak. If one of the Asgard is proud about what his captain did, icing some sucker who deserved it. Don't gimme the touchy-feely BS about why this will get out.

Thirdfain · Post by **Thirdfain** » 2004-09-16 01:41am

You know what lands the vast majority of murderers in jail? Either the guilt eats them until they break down and talk, or they brag about it and get bagged. You underestimate the human capacity to keep this kind of thing a close secret.

I'm going to bed. I suggest you do the same, and think about Asgard marines for a bit, how they would think, what they would care about. These guys aren't murder thugs who are sad about the crime they commited- they are hardened combat troops at war with powers who are (next six words for your benefit) as far as they are concerned (that good enough?) perpetrators of terrible atrocities.

Post by **Beowulf** » 2004-09-16 01:42am

Rogue 9 wrote:
Thirdfain wrote:
This one works because of the base mindset of a human being. Unless his soldiers are all sadists...
Humans kill each other ALL the TIME without feeling enough remorse to fucking well commit treason. Bugsby's post about why you aren't an Asgard marine is particularly telling.
You know what lands the vast majority of murderers in jail? Either the guilt eats them until they break down and talk, or they brag about it and get bagged. You underestimate the human capacity to keep this kind of thing a close secret.

Why would they be feeling guilt? He violated his word, and blew up his ship. And bragging isn't really the sort of thing that would happen due to this, because it's not really the sort of thing to brag about. It's not one of those "no shit" stories, where for example, you have an idiot squad mate let off a burst into the ground in front of you.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2004-09-16 01:44am

I'm going to allow this. Not happely or even agreeing with you logic, Rogue. Just because it suits me.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2004-09-16 02:14am

A question on dates? Just where are we now? Month 10 or 11?

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-09-16 02:15am

Murazor · Post by **Murazor** » 2004-09-16 03:10am

Thirdfain wrote:Perfect.

OK.

Then she'll be damaged by not killed. You don't have the numbers advantage to score a single-volley kill on a clean carrier, especially not when you've just nailed a 1.5 capship-wroth Cataphract. This is a good deal. Take it.

Deal taken. I keep the Cataphract and the Red Queen.

Murazor · Post by **Murazor** » 2004-09-16 03:11am

Thirdfain wrote:Well, I signed on this morning and my customary morning Murazoir battle-post wasn't waiting for me

I'm sad. I wanna kill shit!

I'm posting it now. I found that it was a problem of the floppy.

Pablo Sanchez · Post by **Pablo Sanchez** » 2004-09-16 10:14am

Rogue 9 wrote:You know what lands the vast majority of murderers in jail? Either the guilt eats them until they break down and talk, or they brag about it and get bagged. You underestimate the human capacity to keep this kind of thing a close secret.

You're a fucking idiot. German soldiers in WWII machine-gunned civilians and never felt a twinge of guilt, even unto the 1970s and beyond. Japanese soldiers raped, murdered, and committed atrocities that would have made them puke if it had happened in Tokyo; and then they forgot about it. Russian soldiers raped and pillaged their way into Germany, and this is still a secret to many people. Soldiers of a totalitarian regime at war don't follow the same rules as normal human beings.

Stormbringer's soldiers would have watched that summary execution taking place and not given a fuck. If ordered to, they would have shot the fucker themselves and pissed on his corpse. Because, according to what they were told, it was the right thing to do. Your moral outrage means fuck-all.

Murazor · Post by **Murazor** » 2004-09-16 10:40am

I won't be able to post for the next two days due to RL issues. Sorry, Thirdfain.

Bugsby · Post by **Bugsby** » 2004-09-16 11:42am

As everyone can see over the last page and a half or so, I got involved in a bitchfest (or "flamewar," if you will) last night. While I feel I got some good points in, Im not happy about participating at all, simply because these things aren't supposed to happen. In hopes of making peace in the OOC thread, I now present you with "how to argue."

1. Calling BS. This is the first step, when someone makes a post that you feel is unrealistic or unfair. Read the whole post. Then read it again. Did you miss something? No. Ok. Now, go to the OOC thread and present a full, coherent argument. Calling someone a moron is never a good thing. Take some time and write out your full set of reasons why that post should not be allowed to stand.

2. The Response. The writer of the offending post then gets an opportunity to address the concerns of the person who called BS. Read the "BS" post. Read it again. Now go back and read your post that started the problem. Then go OOC and create a full response to the offended player's points. Keep his perspective in mind. Opening posts with "you miss the point, fucktard" won't help.

3. The Negotiation. The offended player should now read the response and compare that to what has been said IC and OOC. Does the response make sense? This is the time to start thinking of conceding some points. Remember, the offending player posted what he did (both IC and OOC) for a reason. He thought it would work and be acceptable. Around this time, a compromise should be suggested. This can continue for one or two posts on either end.

4. Resolution. Both parties see eye-to-eye on the other's methods and reasons. They agree on a reasonable course of action to take.

5. The Mods. The mods come in to play if and only if neither side is willing to concede. This should rarely happen. However, if, after the initial presentaion of the arguments, both sides are still utterly convinced they are in the right, STOP THE ARGUMENT. PM a mod and sit it out. After two or three posts it stops being debate and starts being "no, you're a dipshit." This doesn't get anyone anywhere.

Methods of argument
1. Science. Has little place on this forum. If it's in the OOB and the OOB says "it works," then it works. Issues with OOBs should go right to the mods.

2. Teaming up. Don't do it. If 10 people think that one person made a bad post, the only people who should call BS are the ones who are directly affected. Teaming turns ANY debate into a flamewar because tempers rise and the one person who is being teamed up on cannot possibly respond to all the people posting against him. IF YOU THINK SOMEONE HAS BEEN BS'd AGAINST, PM THE OFFENDED PERSON AND HAVE HIM PRESS CHARGES.

3. Appeals to precedent. In-game precedent, please. "The Nazis did X" is rarely a convincing argument. What is convincing is "I should be able to do this because Thirdfain did the same thing on Game Thread p. 136, about halfway down." Following an appeal to precedent with a bicker-match over whether its the same thing is never effective. Concede or go to a mod.

4. In-game responses. Only viable if someone did something legitimately stupid. Don't go OOC to tell someone they made a bad move. Let them know by exploiting that move. If the other player thinks that he made a good mood and your response is illegitimate, then he can call BS on you. When this happens, make sure to follow the above procedure. Don't respond with "I did that cuz ur a wanker."

5. Seperate IC and OOC. Metagamers are scum. I don't know how many times this has been said, but seriously, DONT METAGAME. If a person calls BS by saying "how do you know that?" the response isn't "everyone knows that." I want a legitimate "my intel serives were here and heard it from X" argument. Along the same lines, allow yourself to be misled. If someone sets up an elaborate and well laid out ruse IC, having some skeptical yet brilliant analyst on your side suddenly come up with all the right answers is BS. If someone lays a trap and you are walking towards it, for the good of the game you need to allow yourself to walk into it every once in a while or else the game loses all subtlety.

6. Let the person control their own culture. Call BS if someone says something obviously inaccurate, like "my society is immune to bribery because it is libertarian." That doesn't even make sense, and let the person know that. In anything less extreme than that, let it slide. It's their damn culture, and I don't care how different your cultures views or your personal views are.

This is only BARELY scratching the surface, but the message should be clear. Be logical, thorough, and concice. Name-calling is right out. Be willing to concede. If you are unwilling to concede, shut up and go to the mod. And don't whine to the mod, they hate that. Present two sides of a case and let them decide. After the mod posts, the issue is OVER. FOREVER. I know Im guilty of a few of the things up here, but so is everyone else, and I want to keep the "intelligent debate" at an optimum around here. Im sure everyone else does, too.

Pablo Sanchez · Post by **Pablo Sanchez** » 2004-09-16 12:01pm

Bugsby wrote:Calling someone a moron is never a good thing.
Opening posts with "you miss the point, fucktard" won't help.
Don't respond with "I did that cuz ur a wanker."

This is Stardestroyer.net, Bugsby.

Thirdfain · Post by **Thirdfain** » 2004-09-16 12:15pm

Losses:
1 Cataphract (Diaspora's Harbinger) Destroyed
1 Attack Carrier (Red Queen) Destroyed
6 Strike Cruisers Destroyed

4 Escort Frigates destroyed
6 Raiding Frigates destroyed

1 Attack Carrier (Swift Predator Damaged (Shields down, port weapons battery destroyed, FTL sensors down, PD systems crippled. Retreating system via Kincaid.)
1 Strike Cruiser damaged (Forewards hull shredded, WMC and spinal mounts destroyed. Capable of escaping, but no longer combat capable. Escaping system.)
2 Strike Cruisers damaged (Minor, stil combat capable)

So, roughly 50% losses to my Capital and Cruiser walls. Damage to escort screen is minor, which is one of the reasons your strategic torpedo attack failed.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2004-09-16 02:01pm

3. Appeals to precedent. In-game precedent, please. "The Nazis did X" is rarely a convincing argument. What is convincing is "I should be able to do this because Thirdfain did the same thing on Game Thread p. 136, about halfway down." Following an appeal to precedent with a bicker-match over whether its the same thing is never effective. Concede or go to a mod.

Since this is a game of basically RPGing an entire society, I'd have to say that appealing to real life historical references should be allowed. Now provided they're both specific and accurate I don't at all see refering to real history for a precedent as being bad.

_______________________________________________________________

To the people that didn't play it and/or haven't read it:

PLEASE READ STGOD 1

You'll find that it really does inform a lot of galatics politics in this game as well as setting up the history and attitudes of a fair number of the veteran nations. At the very least you'll understand some of the more arcane references.

Oh, and you can always point and laugh at some of the boneheaded manuvers we all tried at one point or another.

PS: I'll talk to Thirdfain and maybe we can put together a quick history of that game to compliment the one for this game.

Bugsby · Post by **Bugsby** » 2004-09-16 03:03pm

Pablo Sanchez wrote:
Bugsby wrote:Calling someone a moron is never a good thing.
Opening posts with "you miss the point, fucktard" won't help.
Don't respond with "I did that cuz ur a wanker."
This is Stardestroyer.net, Bugsby.

Since this is a game of basically RPGing an entire society, I'd have to say that appealing to real life historical references should be allowed. Now provided they're both specific and accurate I don't at all see refering to real history for a precedent as being bad.

Well, yeah. That was just my little manifesto on debate. Not to say that everyone will agree with me on every single little point. Im just trying to lay down guidelines that will make everyone happy. Hell, I have no contorl over what anyone posts! But that's MY idea. Feel free to disregard me.

Darksider · Post by **Darksider** » 2004-09-16 03:24pm

Hey Frigid, you done metagaming yet?

There's NO FUCKING WAY you're fleet's admiral could KNOW FOR A FACT that the fleet behind the moon is a fake.

Knock it off

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2004-09-16 03:26pm

Darksider wrote:Hey Frigid, you done metagaming yet?

There's NO FUCKING WAY you're fleet's admiral could KNOW FOR A FACT that the fleet behind the moon is a fake.

Knock it off

Having just looked over the little exchange your way.. I actually side with Frigid.

So, you went stealth mode. Since you declared no stealth tech, that means, much like my fleet in Shi space, you shut down everything. Only, instead of shutting down everything, you powered down weapons, then used your engines to move. That's not stealthy at all. Throw in that you expect someone to beleive you're a retard, and I don't find much problem.

I say either let Frigid's post stand, or he tracks the fleet which is trying to be stealthy while on the move.

Darksider · Post by **Darksider** » 2004-09-16 03:31pm

What the hell are you talking about?

They jumped first, then activated the decoys, then powered down

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2004-09-16 03:35pm

Darksider wrote:What the hell are you talking about?

They jumped first, then activated the decoys, then powered down

So all the reaction mass marking your movement and the hyperspace signatures should be ignored so your poorly-put-together ruse is accepted?