CreationWeb post archive.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2002-10-31 11:58pm

I think I'm a little stupider for having read their board.

I can feel the brain cells commiting suicide just remembering it!

Post by **haas mark** » 2002-11-01 04:52am

I wondr if anyone could at least question the IP banning...I can't get online as jairyn AT ALL because of the friggin IP ban. (Well, not until daytime, anyways...)

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2002-11-01 08:55am

*looks on in a palpatinesque fashion*

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2002-11-01 11:44am

verilon wrote:I wondr if anyone could at least question the IP banning...I can't get online as jairyn AT ALL because of the friggin IP ban. (Well, not until daytime, anyways...)

How does the IP banning at Creationweb work? Is it to a specific IP address or does it cover a multitude from the same source.

My IP modulates every 2 hours, fuck too much ST. Only part of it changes though, so I'm wondering would the IP banning there still affect me?

Post by **haas mark** » 2002-11-01 12:54pm

neoolong wrote:
verilon wrote:I wondr if anyone could at least question the IP banning...I can't get online as jairyn AT ALL because of the friggin IP ban. (Well, not until daytime, anyways...)
How does the IP banning at Creationweb work? Is it to a specific IP address or does it cover a multitude from the same source.

My IP modulates every 2 hours, fuck too much ST. Only part of it changes though, so I'm wondering would the IP banning there still affect me?

I'm still banned from even getting into the opening page in one computer pod, as is Vympel altogther. All I know is that I'm IP banned...I'm sure Wong can tell you more about that than I can.

Post by **haas mark** » 2002-11-01 04:59pm

jairyn wrote:
Zap81 wrote:the whole "no quotes from the Bible" thing is pontless. There really isn't a way to say what the Bible says otherwise. It's like saying "Tell me and back up whther or not Moby Dick was about a whale wthout quoting from the book." Very hard and pointless.
Its easy to cite Moby Dick without quoting it...All you have to do is review the plot. However, the Bible makes it a bit more difficult. I personally want to know if you can pull any logic from the Bible instead of spewing a bunch of quotes like every friggin other fundie I've come across. I think you can do it, don't you?

Post by **haas mark** » 2002-11-01 05:15pm

jairyn wrote:
creationistalltheway wrote:
As asked twice before: What can you say about God wants? Did he tell you?
Yes He did (the bible), that's why I don't understand why I'm not allowed to quote His words.
Did he tell YOU? I mean, did you hear the words IN YOUR EAR? Did you HEAR HIS VOICE?

Post by **haas mark** » 2002-11-01 05:22pm

creationistalltheway wrote:nistalltheway"]oops. I meant to edit my last post, not make a double post saying "yes the bible" or of the sorts.

Did he tell YOU? I mean, did you hear the words IN YOUR EAR? Did you HEAR HIS VOICE?
Not to equate me with God in any way, but

Did you hear my voice telling you its wrong in that last post? Is it still me telling you it is?[/url]

No, its not...but I ask because I asked if he told you, not if you read it in the Bible.[/quote]

Post by **haas mark** » 2002-11-01 05:29pm

Me to creationistalltheway in a PM:

jairyn wrote:It seems to me that every time a point is made against you, you fail to follow through with the argument. Why is that?

creationistalltheway wrote:like when?

jairyn wrote:Every time I try to bring up a point, you avoid the entire argument entirely.

creationistalltheway wrote:sorry about that. I replied to this before but forgot to empty my sentbox and it didn't send.

What argument have I not replied to? When you asked how I know what God said, you answered your own question by saying you expected a quote from, the Bible (His Word). What more do I say?

jairyn wrote:I ask you what He said to you as a person, not through a book that He didn't physically write.

Awaiting a response...

Post by **haas mark** » 2002-11-01 05:30pm

jairyn wrote:
creationistalltheway wrote:its similiar to reading a Charles Darwin book. I know he believed in evolution because he wrote that he did. but I never heard his voice at all.

God didnt shout in my ear, but He put it under my eyes. Big difference.
No, your parents put it under your eyes. Bigger difference.

Post by **haas mark** » 2002-11-01 05:39pm

jairyn wrote:
creationistalltheway wrote:
No, your parents put it under your eyes. Bigger difference.
Let me rephrase that. God ultimately put it under my eyes. He had me be born where I was, in a Christian family. He writes a book through a number of people, and drives my parents to want to read it. Their reading it leads them to give one to me. Who directly showed ti to me? Well in a sense my parents. Who wrote it, and brought me to a place where I would see it? god.
God did not write it. And if you were a Christian, you'd be capitalizing that. I am a pagan and I have at least that much respect. Second, it was a group of people. Your own words bind you.

Post by **haas mark** » 2002-11-01 05:46pm

jairyn wrote:
creationistalltheway wrote:
God did not write it. And if you were a Christian, you'd be capitalizing that. I am a pagan and I have at least that much respect. Second, it was a group of people. Your own words bind you.
I always capitalize His name. When I"m in a hurry and I forget to press shift, then it means nothing but the fact that I was trying quickly. Some Bibles don't even capitalize it.

A group in the same timeframe, or just a synonym for "number of people"
This timeframe was how long? And you should be looking at what you write more efficiently. I would if I were you. And some Bibles...well, then maybe they're not real Bibles? And honestly, you avoid my argument. I said that it was a group of people, not God, that wrote the Bible. A;lso, you don't respond to my PMs. And how about we take this to AIM, if you have it?

Post by **haas mark** » 2002-11-01 05:56pm

jairyn wrote:
creationistalltheway wrote:I responded to all your PM's (the apostrophe is there to avoid common misconceptions) so far.
What is there to misconceive?

It was God through a group of people.[/qupte]

I understand this. But ultimately it was still mortal people that wrote it, yes?

Forget the timeframe thing. I thought you were correcting the words "number of people" when you said it wass a group of people.
No....what's so hard to understand? I said a group of people...a group of people is a group of people...And what IS the timeframe?

On the AIM thing, I like using it once and a while but I'd prefer to keep debates here or with PM's. AIM makes it so every time I go on to relax or chat someone somewhere is bound to debate, and it gets very annoying.
Makes sense. And it looks like I'm that person. Besides, that's what an ignore button is for. Look thru your IM settings and whatnot...if you don't want to be bothered, there are ways to avoid it.

Post by **haas mark** » 2002-11-01 06:03pm

jairyn wrote:
creationistalltheway wrote:
No....what's so hard to understand? I said a group of people...a group of people is a group of people...And what IS the timeframe?
Alright. When you said group of people, I thought you were implying that it was written by one group of people in the same generation.. I didn't see that you were reffering to it being people instead of God. My mistake.
Forgiven

I understand this. But ultimately it was still mortal people that wrote it, yes?
Physically speaking, yes.
Exactly my point. But then, do you see His name on the cover of the book?

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2002-11-01 07:16pm

verilon wrote:
jairyn wrote:Exactly my point. But then, do you see His name on the cover of the book?

Actually on the copy of the Bible I use for debates, the name on the cover is God. Really stupid people put this shit out. Of course, I didn't buy the book, it came in a free bag of stuff. I really just wanted the glowy bouncy ball it came with.

Post by **haas mark** » 2002-11-01 07:20pm

neoolong wrote:
verilon wrote:
jairyn wrote:Exactly my point. But then, do you see His name on the cover of the book?
Actually on the copy of the Bible I use for debates, the name on the cover is God. Really stupid people put this shit out. Of course, I didn't buy the book, it came in a free bag of stuff. I really just wanted the glowy bouncy ball it came with.

Heh heh lol...a saying about small minds comes to mind...anyways...free stuff + fundies = what you got.

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2002-11-01 07:27pm

verilon wrote:
neoolong wrote:
verilon wrote:
Actually on the copy of the Bible I use for debates, the name on the cover is God. Really stupid people put this shit out. Of course, I didn't buy the book, it came in a free bag of stuff. I really just wanted the glowy bouncy ball it came with.
Heh heh lol...a saying about small minds comes to mind...anyways...free stuff + fundies = what you got.

Hey, that ball was worth it. It's glowy and it bounces. And I get to use their own book against them, without paying for it. Mu hahahaha.

Post by **haas mark** » 2002-11-01 07:28pm

It DOES have its advantages...*small minds...I want a glowing bouncy ball!

*

Utsanomiko · Post by **Utsanomiko** » 2002-11-01 11:40pm

Here's my second post there. it's either a hermless question or a shock to the entire belief system.

Speaking of *knowing* the Way without proof, is there any 100% accurate way of knowing that the God referred to in the Bible as our "divine, all-loving creator", and the fallen Archangel known for being evil, decietful, and manipulative, are in fact Jehovah and Lucifer, respectively? Bear with me here to elaborate my question, as I don't know the bible well enough to answer this:

The bible says that Jehovah is God; he's all knowing, all loving, and created everything, including the Archangels. One of them rebelled, and was cast out. He was named Lucifer, and came to be known as Satan; the evil antagonist of God, and creates lies to fool humans into following him. That's the basic gist, anyway.

Isn't it at all possible that Jehovah is actually in fact the deceitful fallen angel, cast out by our benevolent creator Lucifer? Is there anything that can let us specifically know that the Bible isn't in reality the word of Satan, disguising goodness as 'sinful', evil people as 'those close to the Lord', and refer to the true savior as 'the Devil', all to lure us away from the light?

I really want to know, is there anything that can be 100% positive that the bible is truly God's word to keep us from Satan, and not Satan's lies to keep us from God? I'm confused.

Post by **Coyote** » 2002-11-02 11:37pm

Hello, all, 'Yotie here with another update on the Creationweb way of war. I posted this and look at what they did to my SIG which was originallt a line from a Hebrew prayer. They've no banned a gay and a Jew, they're doing a good job of showing their true colors...

Ze'ev- Eretz
Member

Joined: 27 Oct 2002
Posts: 27
Location: Fort Metz'ada
Posted: Fri Nov 01, 2002 6:19 pm Post subject:

Kyle Shockley wrote:

"I never stated that it answers everything. It does however support the historacity of the
Bible where reasonable and available.

What is encouraging is that nearly every single place mention in the Bible has an archaeological site to back it up, but the match-up of place and time is not guaranteed. For example, we have Jericho, which exists and there is a definite destruction layer of walls. The Israelites' next target was Hazor, where again we see a destruction layer and later rebuilding, so it could serve as the (temporary) capital of the newly conquered Canaan/Israelite state.

But what cannot be proven is that magic horns ('shofar') blasted the walls, and in Kathryn Kenyon;s expiditions the destruction of Hazor and Jerico may well have taken place up to 120 years apart. So we could be looking at a situation where the tribe and its leaders took credit for the attacks but no one leader (ie, Joshua) was directly responsible or even on site. The collapse of the walls by sounding the shofar is most likely allegory: the attackers overwhelmed the fortress so quickly that 'the battle was over as soon as the horns were sounded to commence the attack'. Over time, it became 'magic horns of God' to strike awe in later generations. After all, if you have magic horns that can blast the walls of an enemy city, why use them one time and then put them in storage despite all the other enemies that remain?

Quote:
One has to go by faith at some point. But, does the evidence reasonably support that faith? That is the question.

Once you throw faith into it, science logic and reason go out the window. The whole idea behind faith is that you do not require logic to back it up-- doing so indicates a lack of faith. Now, we can claim anything we want with Faith, and that is where for me, personally, I have faith in the existance of God and the idea of heavenly reward/justice. But I don't blindly accept a Creation that took seven 24-hour days or the sudden appearance of Adam and Eve from nowhere. These descriptions are Bronze Age tribal stories, allegorical, to explain a 4.6 billion year "Creation" from swirling pools of gas and dust. Adam and Eve are allegorical for the first true humans to evolve as such, in full biological form.

God can make anything, why not cosmology, evolution, etc? Why limit God? Just because we don't understand why the Dinosaurs lived and died, why are we to say that they didn't, or were 'mistakes' of God? They may well have served an important purpose that we cannot fathom.

The concepts of a billion-year Creation from gas & dust ('Big Bang') fits halakhic ruling and coincides with modern cosmological evidence. So why not see other facets to God's plan?

Question: Do you think the Law is a directional pointing towards a final completion or consumation, or is it an end unto itself? If a completion is inferred from the character of the Law itself, what exactly is that consumation or completion (what does it entail; be specific)?

If I get your question correctly, it is like I posted above (in the previous message) and in other threads. Basically, that love of God is primary, and following God's edicts displays that. This includes good works, which are not the key to salvation but help keep you and the community on the right path (it is easier to maintain an even moral keel when the entire community is doing it too). There ends up being less of an 'individual salvation' concept and more of a 'communal reinforcement'. But going to the Kingdom of Heaven is the end result of a multitude of rule-following, and action both spiritual and temporal ensure this.

_________________
I am an intolerant, bigoted troll. What are you going to do about it?

Post by **Coyote** » 2002-11-03 12:16am

Ze'ev- Eretz
Member

Joined: 27 Oct 2002
Posts: 27
Location: Fort Metz'ada
Posted: Fri Nov 01, 2002 5:49 pm Post subject:

The Jewish pov on sin & punishment is kinda the flip-side of "the righteous of all nations will
have a place inthe Kingdom of Heaven". There is also the concept that a baby is born free of sin; he is a clean slate, but human nature and our environment gurantee that some sin will become apart of the person's life as he grows up.

A child is provisianally accepted until his bar-mitzvah (at age 13) or her bat-mitzvah (age 12). At that point they have, theoretically, seen enough and learned enough to determine right and wrong and to accept their place within the community.

Everyone will spend some time answering for their sins. What was typically described to me was a sort of complicated scale where God knows what you did, why you did it, what you thought you were doing it for, any realization of damage you caused, your sincerity in apologizing and trying to make amends, and so on. God knows all these things and can keep track of them.

Also, a person who sins in a way that harms other people will come to comprehend the damage cause dto that person; the damage that radiated out to his family and friends, the social damage they caused and so on. So let's say a person murders a shopkeeper. The murderer later realizes his sin and responsibly serves time in jail, and later tries to make up the loss. But he still has to understand the individual pain he put the shopkeeper through as he killed him; the anguish of the shopkeeper's friends and family, the effects of the loss of income to the community, and the stress of the families who could not get food because the shopkeeper was killed. His acceptance of responsibility for his sin will mitigate his coming lesson in comprehension, but he cannot sidestep it.

Someone like Hitler may, perhaps, accept his responsibility and find some way to Heaven eventually but he will have to expereince the effects of the suffering he caused-- not just to his Camp victims but the deaths of the soldiers (his own as well as the Allies) and their familes' anguish, the social trauma felt by citizens whose homes were destroyed and lacked social services due to the needs to stop Hitler's evil, etc.

So while everyone goes to Heaven, eventually (Hitler will be in 'therapy' for a long time), everyone also has to 'fess up to the sins they've done too. Hebrew tradition leans mostly towards JUSTICE; you cannot have a Heaven worthy of the name without it.
_________________
I am an intolerant, bigoted troll. What are you going to do about it?

Raptor 597 · Post by **Raptor 597** » 2002-11-03 12:22am

verilon wrote:Woot! They even made a special prayer request for me! LOL!!!

So thats why they flame, ban you, and want you too Burn in the Lake of Fire. Gee, what a request.

Post by **haas mark** » 2002-11-03 03:30am

Captain Lennox wrote:
verilon wrote:Woot! They even made a special prayer request for me! LOL!!!
So thats why they flame, ban you, and want you too Burn in the Lake of Fire. Gee, what a request.

Do you know if they banned me as Jairyn yet?

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2002-11-03 01:23pm

verilon wrote:
Captain Lennox wrote:
verilon wrote:Woot! They even made a special prayer request for me! LOL!!!
So thats why they flame, ban you, and want you too Burn in the Lake of Fire. Gee, what a request.
Do you know if they banned me as Jairyn yet?

Probably made inactive. Can you still log in?

Post by **haas mark** » 2002-11-03 01:25pm

neoolong wrote:
verilon wrote:
Captain Lennox wrote: So thats why they flame, ban you, and want you too Burn in the Lake of Fire. Gee, what a request.
Do you know if they banned me as Jairyn yet?
Probably made inactive. Can you still log in?

I dunno yet.