Borg's adaptation against raw energy weapons

[greenmm]

Further, the hull of a starship should EASILY be able to withstand projectile weapon fire from .45 rounds made of lead. A much more likely reason would be that the Enterprise-E does not have replicators large enough to manufacture projectile weapons like the Tommy gun.

We need some numbers. Anyone?

[Groan] I really don't see why we need any numbers. We should be able to assume that the hull of a starship can withstand a micrometeor impact, and that has much more KE than a .45 round. Further, the .45 round will deform, absorbing much of its own energy (assuming that the hull is made of sturdier stuff than lead, but it would almost have to be). Calculations are only necessary if something is close, and unless you are taking the unbelievably stupid position that a micrometeor is less energetic than a bullet, I don't really see the need to look up the muzzle velocity and mass of a .45 fired from a Thompson.[/quote]

IIRC, it's a few kilojoules of energy. Let's be generous and call it 2g of TNT.

If Federation hulls can't stand that kind of impact, they're even sorrier than we thought...

[Darth Servo]

[Groan] I really don't see why we need any numbers. We should be able to assume that the hull of a starship can withstand a micrometeor impact, and that has much more KE than a .45 round.

I thought thats what they used their shields for.

Further, the .45 round will deform, absorbing much of its own energy (assuming that the hull is made of sturdier stuff than lead, but it would almost have to be). Calculations are only necessary if something is close, and unless you are taking the unbelievably stupid position that a micrometeor is less energetic than a bullet, I don't really see the need to look up the muzzle velocity and mass of a .45 fired from a Thompson.

As Mike has already pointed out in his debate with Edam, Federation doors can be buckled by Worf butting it with his head. They aren't that sturdy! Besides, there's more than just the vacuum of space to worry about. There's lots of explosive stuff inside the ship as well.

[Enlightenment]

Probably the same reason they don't use projectile weapons in B5. You don't want to put holes in the walls of the ship.

This is a brainbug. The hulls of spacecraft and fixed installations must be thick enough to protect the crew/occupants from irradiation and injury due to micrometeriorites. Radiation protection involves a bare minimum hull thickness of two meters. Micrometerorite protection involves stopping objects that travel fast enough to have impact energies on the order of a 20mm autocannon shell. Note that these requirements also apply to the windows. At the Trek technology level, no projectile handgun can penetrate micrometeorite armor let alone two meters of solid radiation sheilding.

Futhermore, even if someone punctured a hull with a few dozen 7.62mm shots it'd take weeks or even months to depressurize something the size of the E-E. On B5, atmospheric losses resulting from the same hull injury would be completely lost in the noise of normal losses through airlocks, rotating pressure seals, seepage, and construction errors. The only time hull penetration becomes a serious issue for traditional kenetic or explosive weapons is when the energies get up into the tank killing range.


Concerns over hitting vital or explosive ships systems are more valid but even then any competent (I realize this term doesn't apply to Starfleet--I'm talking in the general case) warship desig team would put splinter/fragment protection (armor) around vital or volitile systems anyway.

[Slartibartfast]

Is that better then have the ship assimilated by the borg? This is only a worry right next to the outer hull of the ship and if a bullet from a handheld weapon can blow holls in the outer hull of a starship then the Federation has major problems.

I'll quote Mike from the Edam debate on this one:

Federation doors are so flimsy that a devolved Klingon can knock them down with his head

Kirk: Don't be a fool, Kang! Our ship has superior defenses! Attacking us would be like banging your head against a brick wall!
Kang: We are the klingons! Banging our heads against brick walls is our specialty!

[Shinova]

About Borgs being completely vulnerable to KE:


In Scorpion, when 8472 were blowing up that planet, several chunks of the planet flew out and smashed into the cube. Now, from what everyone else is saying, the cube should've been completely destroyed.

Can anyone explain this?

At least 2 cubes where destroyed by the debris from the planet exploding. there where 3 but only one got away and it did not appear to get hit by anything.

You need to watch Scorpion again. The two cubes were destroyed by the exploding planet's shockwave. About 15 to 20 seconds before that the third cube was being hit by small chunks spewed out from the planet.

To sumarize: Shockwaves and rocks are two different things :mrgree:

[Slartibartfast]

Further, the hull of a starship should EASILY be able to withstand projectile weapon fire from .45 rounds made of lead. A much more likely reason would be that the Enterprise-E does not have replicators large enough to manufacture projectile weapons like the Tommy gun.

We need some numbers. Anyone?

[Groan] I really don't see why we need any numbers. We should be able to assume that the hull of a starship can withstand a micrometeor impact, and that has much more KE than a .45 round. Further, the .45 round will deform, absorbing much of its own energy (assuming that the hull is made of sturdier stuff than lead, but it would almost have to be). Calculations are only necessary if something is close, and unless you are taking the unbelievably stupid position that a micrometeor is less energetic than a bullet, I don't really see the need to look up the muzzle velocity and mass of a .45 fired from a Thompson.[/quote]

Plus it's not like the Enterprise is a hollow shell with corridors inside. Bullets would probably need to go thru several layers of structure (however weak it might be) so unless you fire directly to glass windows (which could STILL be bulletproof like some real windows we have today, OTOH I can't tell if *all* windows in the Enterprise are force fields or not) I'd say the risk is pretty low.

[Yogi]

There is no mention anywhere in Canon of the Borg having 'subspace' defenses. Their defenses are repeatedly(The first incident in my mind is BOBW) described as frequency dependent. No frequency, no defenses for the Borg. Oh fucking well.

No, in Voyager, I'm sure they are described as having something to do with subspace. I'll get back to you later on the exact quote.

[Yogi]

What the fuck? This is a 100% irrelevent analogy. Do you mind explaining how "subspace barriers" described with no evidence relates to the forced decryption of data? Irrelevent bullshit and damn near red herring too.

No I don't mind at all. There's a smart way to get through Borg sheilds (using a frequency) and a stupid way (punching through). Just because the Borg can make it so the smart way doesn't work, doesn't mean that the stupid way is better.

Do you have a fetish for analogies that are complete horseshit with regards to the argument at hand?

The weak spot is the fact Trek shields are miserably ineffective since adjusting the weapon can pass right through the shields. The Imperial weapons are so overpowerful their adaptability is irrelevent against the gigatonage of the ISD's main guns.

The point people were making is because the weapons had no frequency, then the Borg could not adapt to them. My assertion was that because they had no frequency, the Borg CAN adapt to them. It's just that their adaptation may not do any good if the attacks are powerful enough.

[Ghost Rider]

Just to bring up a point...does any of SW weapons rely upon Sub space...anything...no?!

So why bring it up...is it going to protect them against raw power...no...unless 8472 were using uber frequency weapons they were handing the Borgs assess handiliy and before someone spews the bullshit of they couldn't adapt...how many millions of Borg cubes till they realize no SW ship uses a specific frequency thus they cannot shunt them out like the pathetic feddies

Plus the analogy of Krytonite is the same as saying how many orders of magnitude is Superman above Spiderman(unless he's has a stone who cares Spidey knows this...he's dead in a millisecond)...so how many orders of magnitude are the Empire vs the puny Borg?

Thank you.

[Darth Servo]

Plus it's not like the Enterprise is a hollow shell with corridors inside. Bullets would probably need to go thru several layers of structure (however weak it might be) so unless you fire directly to glass windows (which could STILL be bulletproof like some real windows we have today, OTOH I can't tell if *all* windows in the Enterprise are force fields or not) I'd say the risk is pretty low.

OK I guess you're right. Afterall, even if the bullets did pose a threat to the ship it still wouldn't explain why they don't replicate a bunch of throwing knives or less powerful projectile weapon.

[SirNitram]

There is no mention anywhere in Canon of the Borg having 'subspace' defenses. Their defenses are repeatedly(The first incident in my mind is BOBW) described as frequency dependent. No frequency, no defenses for the Borg. Oh fucking well.

No, in Voyager, I'm sure they are described as having something to do with subspace. I'll get back to you later on the exact quote.

And even if you are correct, it still means jack and shit when you have raw power.

[Yogi]

And even if you are correct, it still means jack and shit when you have raw power.

Not necessarily. Subspace has a nasty tendancy to make things Not In Normal Space Anymore, which is why Raw Power may not be as effective as everyone seems to think. Of course, enough Raw Power will always get through, the question is how much.

[Illuminatus Primus]

What the fuck? This is a 100% irrelevent analogy. Do you mind explaining how "subspace barriers" described with no evidence relates to the forced decryption of data? Irrelevent bullshit and damn near red herring too.

No I don't mind at all. There's a smart way to get through Borg sheilds (using a frequency) and a stupid way (punching through). Just because the Borg can make it so the smart way doesn't work, doesn't mean that the stupid way is better.

Why would it be stupid when the shields are only what....20 gigatons in strength, and the medium guns on an ISD are 200 gigatons? Why do things differently, when you can blow up one target with each shot?

The SW weapons/shields are better because they don't have the eccentricities, irreliabilities, and weaknesses of a frequency-based system, and they're so inordinately more powerful who cares?

Do you have a fetish for analogies that are
complete horseshit with regards to the argument at hand?

The weak spot is the fact Trek shields are miserably ineffective since adjusting the weapon can pass right through the shields. The Imperial weapons are so overpowerful their adaptability is irrelevent against the gigatonage of the ISD's main guns.

The point people were making is because the weapons had no frequency, then the Borg could not adapt to them. My assertion was that because they had no frequency, the Borg CAN adapt to them. It's just that their adaptation may not do any good if the attacks are powerful enough.

The only adaption known to weapons in ST is frequency-based. Since all shields have appeared frequency-based, and all weapons frequency-based, I don't see why the Borg would be able to adapt.

Even if they can, 20 Cubes can't scrape together the power to make a sufficient shield over a single Cube.

The Borg are shit.

[Illuminatus Primus]

And even if you are correct, it still means jack and shit when you have raw power.

Not necessarily. Subspace has a nasty tendancy to make things Not In Normal Space Anymore, which is why Raw Power may not be as effective as everyone seems to think. Of course, enough Raw Power will always get through, the question is how much.

Bullshit. Whatever is shunting energy in real space into subspace requires energy to do so. It's changing the state, and doing something to that energy. And in order to manage that energy and this process, it must require power to generate the affect and manage the power being "bled off" into subspace. A ship with maybe 10 gigaton shields cannot shrug off 200 gigaton blasts.

Do you want to know how the power of shields, Borg and otherwise, are measured? By how much damage they can handle. Regardless of how the energy is being deflected, the power calc is just based on how much firepower can be dissapated. If canon evidence has pointed a number in the low gigatons for the threshold of firepower a Borg Cube can safely deflect, regardless of how they do it, subspace or someway else, it can't handle 200 gigaton blasts. Period. One turbolaser bolt from an SD kills a Borg Cube, shields and all, with one shot.

Has anyone noticed how our friend here brought up how by-passing Borg shields the "smart way" is with frequencies, then remarks how Borg shields are not frequency-based but some bizarre subspace affect that can bleed off unlimited quantities of power.

This is called internal inconsistency.

[SirNitram]

And even if you are correct, it still means jack and shit when you have raw power.

Not necessarily. Subspace has a nasty tendancy to make things Not In Normal Space Anymore, which is why Raw Power may not be as effective as everyone seems to think. Of course, enough Raw Power will always get through, the question is how much.

Prove this utter and complete bullshit.

[Illuminatus Primus]

It is horseshit because the shield's mechanism is meaningless, it could be fucking magnetic fields, but the calc we've done for how much firepower it can take isn't affect by guesses on how it works.

How is works doesn't change how much firepower the movies and episodes show it can take. A Borg shield is just as pussy by our observations/calcs if it a "subspace barrier" or a frequency-based shield.

[The Dark]

Not to be completely annoying, but I took a couple minutes and looked up the numbers for a .45 caliber bullet fired from a Thompson M1 Sub-Machine Gun. A .45 caliber bullet weighs .250 kg, and the M1 imparts a muzzle velocity of 282 meters/second. If anyone thinks that has more power than a micro-meteorite, please go ask Darth Wong to rip you a new one.

[Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman]

There is no mention anywhere in Canon of the Borg having 'subspace' defenses. Their defenses are repeatedly(The first incident in my mind is BOBW) described as frequency dependent. No frequency, no defenses for the Borg. Oh fucking well.

No, in Voyager, I'm sure they are described as having something to do with subspace. I'll get back to you later on the exact quote.

Please point a SINGLE EPISODE when Borg shields (cubes or drones) *adapt* against frequency-independent weapon (ergo: raw energy weapon) like they adapt against phasers.

[Master of Ossus]

Just to bring up a point...does any of SW weapons rely upon Sub space...anything...no?!

So why bring it up...is it going to protect them against raw power...no...unless 8472 were using uber frequency weapons they were handing the Borgs assess handiliy and before someone spews the bullshit of they couldn't adapt...how many millions of Borg cubes till they realize no SW ship uses a specific frequency thus they cannot shunt them out like the pathetic feddies

Plus the analogy of Krytonite is the same as saying how many orders of magnitude is Superman above Spiderman(unless he's has a stone who cares Spidey knows this...he's dead in a millisecond)...so how many orders of magnitude are the Empire vs the puny Borg?

Thank you.

Actually, SW does use subspace sensors and communications, but it has other forms of communications and sensors that do not rely on subspace, also.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Not weapons.

[Master of Ossus]

Not weapons.

No. Not weapons.

[Darth Yoshi]

Probably the same reason they don't use projectile weapons in B5. You don't want to put holes in the walls of the ship.

Um. No. In B5 they don't use projectile weapons because "They wanted a weapon that would knock someone down without leaving a flesh wound." PPG's are used on B5, instead of more powerful weapons, because of the risk of punching through the hull of the station. Further, the hull of a starship should EASILY be able to withstand projectile weapon fire from .45 rounds made of lead. A much more likely reason would be that the Enterprise-E does not have replicators large enough to manufacture projectile weapons like the Tommy gun.

Purhaps they could convert the holodeck into a giat replicator since in voyager when the holograms blew a holl into the outer wall the holograms could walk into the corridors of the ship and they were reaking havok.

[Neo]Guns. Lots of Guns.[/Neo]

[FettKyle]

Okay. It seems that normal borg cube don't stand a chance when it comes to block TLs now what about Tactical borg cubes?

[Master of Ossus]

Okay. It seems that normal borg cube don't stand a chance when it comes to block TLs now what about Tactical borg cubes?

It's pretty much the same thing, from what we can tell. Tactical cubes are not likely to have weapons and shields that are orders of magnitude greater than the weapons and shields available to regular cubes.

[FettKyle]

It's pretty much the same thing, from what we can tell. Tactical cubes are not likely to have weapons and shields that are orders of magnitude greater than the weapons and shields available to regular cubes.

So its like the difference between an ISD I and an ISD II?
Just slightly better then the last.