Muslim enclave in your backyard; what do you do?
Moderators: Alyrium Denryle, Edi, K. A. Pital
- Guardsman Bass
- Cowardly Codfish
- Posts: 9281
- Joined: 2002-07-07 12:01am
- Location: Beneath the Deepest Sea
Do periodic visa checks, and make sure to rub the Muslim Enclave's nose in it, so they get the message and rush to gain citizenship and be "good" Secularians.
Realistically, try to reach out to them through various programs, encourage the building of cable tv into the area, prevent the local wannabe mullahs from closing porn or alcohol shops, and just try in general to disperse them.
Realistically, try to reach out to them through various programs, encourage the building of cable tv into the area, prevent the local wannabe mullahs from closing porn or alcohol shops, and just try in general to disperse them.
“It is possible to commit no mistakes and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life.”
-Jean-Luc Picard
"Men are afraid that women will laugh at them. Women are afraid that men will kill them."
-Margaret Atwood
-Jean-Luc Picard
"Men are afraid that women will laugh at them. Women are afraid that men will kill them."
-Margaret Atwood
- The Yosemite Bear
- Mostly Harmless Nutcase (Requiescat in Pace)
- Posts: 35211
- Joined: 2002-07-21 02:38am
- Location: Dave's Not Here Man
- Alferd Packer
- Sith Marauder
- Posts: 3704
- Joined: 2002-07-19 09:22pm
- Location: Slumgullion Pass
- Contact:
Redistricting sounds like a good idea. Split up the enclave into, say, five chunks, and add those chunks to other nearby districts. That takes care of diversity in the public schools. Also, ban religious garb in said public schools, the idea being to make very clear that one is a Secularian in public, and whatever he wants to be at home.
As for the antisemitism, treat it like it's the end of the goddamned world. Call in Gil Grissom and the CSI dream team, and find out exactly who did it, then punish as necessary. Adopt Germany's (well, Berlin's for sure) policy of putting a police officer in front of every synagouge in the city-state all the time. If a mosque is vandalized, do the same thing for them.
So, the muslim youth are getting a solid dose of Secularian values like everyone else. What about those going to private schools which are basically Islamic brainwashing facilities? Well, it warrants careful action, that's for sure. It might be tempting to simply take away the school's credentials, but then you'd just be churning out ignorant fundamentalist dropouts, and we all know where that leads. Instead, set their mandatory guidelines to give equal time to all religions of Secularia, or none at all. In other words, if they spend a period studying the Koran, they have to do the same for the OT, Bible, and any other holy text of every single minority religion within the borders of Secularia. It'll be so prohibitively time consuming that the schools will abandon religious education alltogether or be disbanded.
Now homeschoolers? Well, there ain't much you can do about them, except hold them to the standards of every other Secularian kid. You're always gonna have some fundies(Christian, Jewish, Muslim, etc.) no matter hard you try, but by making them the extreme minority, they essentially become a laughingstock of the community. By removing concentrated, organized means of indoctrinating children, you're probably ridding the state of 90% of the problem.
Now, the current generation? Well, we can assume that most are legal immigrants. Some are citizens, some aren't. Those citizens who break the law are dealt with according to the law, and the non-citizens are deported and never allowed to (legally) return. But rather than simply punishing negative behavior, Secularia should also reward good behavior. Those Muslims who engage in overtly positive, community(by that I mean larger than the enclave)-strengthening behavior(say, planting trees at a park or sponsoring interfaith dialogues) should be rewarded somehow, be it praise from the Mayor/President, tax breaks for local business, whatever. It just has to be something overt, so people begin to associate tolerant good behavior with good things.
Sure, it won't be all roses and cake. I think, however, if you make the conscious effort to integrate the youth and discourage isolationist behavior from the adults, you'll probably find that both assimilate relatively well.
As for the antisemitism, treat it like it's the end of the goddamned world. Call in Gil Grissom and the CSI dream team, and find out exactly who did it, then punish as necessary. Adopt Germany's (well, Berlin's for sure) policy of putting a police officer in front of every synagouge in the city-state all the time. If a mosque is vandalized, do the same thing for them.
So, the muslim youth are getting a solid dose of Secularian values like everyone else. What about those going to private schools which are basically Islamic brainwashing facilities? Well, it warrants careful action, that's for sure. It might be tempting to simply take away the school's credentials, but then you'd just be churning out ignorant fundamentalist dropouts, and we all know where that leads. Instead, set their mandatory guidelines to give equal time to all religions of Secularia, or none at all. In other words, if they spend a period studying the Koran, they have to do the same for the OT, Bible, and any other holy text of every single minority religion within the borders of Secularia. It'll be so prohibitively time consuming that the schools will abandon religious education alltogether or be disbanded.
Now homeschoolers? Well, there ain't much you can do about them, except hold them to the standards of every other Secularian kid. You're always gonna have some fundies(Christian, Jewish, Muslim, etc.) no matter hard you try, but by making them the extreme minority, they essentially become a laughingstock of the community. By removing concentrated, organized means of indoctrinating children, you're probably ridding the state of 90% of the problem.
Now, the current generation? Well, we can assume that most are legal immigrants. Some are citizens, some aren't. Those citizens who break the law are dealt with according to the law, and the non-citizens are deported and never allowed to (legally) return. But rather than simply punishing negative behavior, Secularia should also reward good behavior. Those Muslims who engage in overtly positive, community(by that I mean larger than the enclave)-strengthening behavior(say, planting trees at a park or sponsoring interfaith dialogues) should be rewarded somehow, be it praise from the Mayor/President, tax breaks for local business, whatever. It just has to be something overt, so people begin to associate tolerant good behavior with good things.
Sure, it won't be all roses and cake. I think, however, if you make the conscious effort to integrate the youth and discourage isolationist behavior from the adults, you'll probably find that both assimilate relatively well.
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance--that principle is contempt prior to investigation." -Herbert Spencer
"Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain." - Schiller, Die Jungfrau von Orleans, III vi.
"Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain." - Schiller, Die Jungfrau von Orleans, III vi.
- 2000AD
- Emperor's Hand
- Posts: 6666
- Joined: 2002-07-03 06:32pm
- Location: Leeds, wishing i was still in Newcastle
The OP sounds a bit like Bradford to me.
Ph34r teh eyebrow!!11!Writers Guild Sluggite Pawn of Chaos WYGIWYGAINGW so now i have to put ACPATHNTDWATGODW in my sig EBC-Honorary Geordie
Hammerman! Hammer!
Hammerman! Hammer!
- Prozac the Robert
- Jedi Master
- Posts: 1327
- Joined: 2004-05-05 09:01am
- Location: UK
If we are going for silly and extreme measures, how about aranged marriages?
Arange marriage by lottery or a special comittee or something, and have everybody thoroughly mixed up in no time.
And no, I wouldn't sugest this for a real problem.
Arange marriage by lottery or a special comittee or something, and have everybody thoroughly mixed up in no time.
And no, I wouldn't sugest this for a real problem.
Hi! I'm Prozac the Robert!
EBC: "We can categorically state that we will be releasing giant man-eating badgers into the area."
EBC: "We can categorically state that we will be releasing giant man-eating badgers into the area."
Definitely lower the limit for immigration from Muslim countries. Pursue the hate crime perpetrators with a vengeance. Enforce and strengthen gender equality laws abd kther laws that go against Islamic law. If it gets too bad, declare a disastter area, evacuate and scatter the inhabitants of the enclave.
Don't hate; appreciate!
RIP Eddie.
RIP Eddie.
Good one!MKSheppard wrote:Depends. Is Secularia majority Serb?aerius wrote:Clearly, we must declare martial law and begin ethnic cleansing!
But to answer the question, unknown, but it will be by the time The Shep Solution is implemented.
aerius: I'll vote for you if you sleep with me.
Lusankya: Deal!
Say, do you want it to be a threesome with your wife? Or a foursome with your wife and sister-in-law? I'm up for either.
Lusankya: Deal!
Say, do you want it to be a threesome with your wife? Or a foursome with your wife and sister-in-law? I'm up for either.
- Spyder
- Sith Marauder
- Posts: 4465
- Joined: 2002-09-03 03:23am
- Location: Wellington, New Zealand
- Contact:
Well let's see...
The first thing I'd have to do is assess whether or not these Muslems are actually creating a problem. See what the rest of the nation thinks about it, any potential civil unrest ect. If it's not then the best we can do is try to adapt and just deal with each problem as it arrises, the same as in any major city state.
If the opposite holds true however.
There'd be a step up in the education progam promoting the equal rights of woman. Infact they'll be encouraged to take off their burqas and partake in such events as national cross dressing day which all public schools will be promoting. If this offends their religious sensibilities then too bad, the program is designed to promote equality among the sexes. "If they don't like it no one's going to force them to take part." will be the official line which is in line with the national policy of non religious descrimination. Infact I'd actually expand that policy to mean "no state action can be taken to favour one religion over another" and would ensure that seperation of church and state is constitutionalized and adhered to. Any religion mentioned in school will strictly be for historical and educational value, not spiritual value. The fundies can indoctrinate their kids in their own time. While we're at it, critical thinking will be added to the cirriculim.
It's going to get a lot harder to raise religious children in Secularia.
The first thing I'd have to do is assess whether or not these Muslems are actually creating a problem. See what the rest of the nation thinks about it, any potential civil unrest ect. If it's not then the best we can do is try to adapt and just deal with each problem as it arrises, the same as in any major city state.
If the opposite holds true however.
There'd be a step up in the education progam promoting the equal rights of woman. Infact they'll be encouraged to take off their burqas and partake in such events as national cross dressing day which all public schools will be promoting. If this offends their religious sensibilities then too bad, the program is designed to promote equality among the sexes. "If they don't like it no one's going to force them to take part." will be the official line which is in line with the national policy of non religious descrimination. Infact I'd actually expand that policy to mean "no state action can be taken to favour one religion over another" and would ensure that seperation of church and state is constitutionalized and adhered to. Any religion mentioned in school will strictly be for historical and educational value, not spiritual value. The fundies can indoctrinate their kids in their own time. While we're at it, critical thinking will be added to the cirriculim.
It's going to get a lot harder to raise religious children in Secularia.
- Sarevok
- The Fearless One
- Posts: 10681
- Joined: 2002-12-24 07:29am
- Location: The Covenants last and final line of defense
Not very good idea. It is discriminating against muslims.Definitely lower the limit for immigration from Muslim countries.
Good idea. Hate crime perpetrators give their community's a bad name.Pursue the hate crime perpetrators with a vengeance.
Theoriticaly men and women are equal in Islam. Islam does not declare men is superior to women. So what is needed is to educate the muslim public about this.Enforce and strengthen gender equality laws
Well muslims in the US and Europe dont generaly mind living under wetern law and dont demand sharia law for them in those countries. So this should not be a big problem.abd kther laws that go against Islamic law.
Now that's a bit too harsh.If it gets too bad, declare a disastter area, evacuate and scatter the inhabitants of the enclave.
I have to tell you something everything I wrote above is a lie.
Well, if the Muslims are the largest minority group in secularia, I would encourage schools in the area to offer Arabic as a LOTE (I'm assuming that LOTE is compulsory or semi-compulsory up to year 8. It is here, in any case). The Arabic classes should teach the non-muslim students something about middle eastern culture, so they would understand their muslim neighbours better. Also, with proper government support, the Arabic classes would be a good opportunity to get prominent members of the muslim community to meet non-muslims - they could be the arabic teachers, they could help with LOTE excursions, that kind of thing.
The teaching of Arabic in local schools could also encourage some of the muslim families to send their children to schools outside of the enclave, particularly if they're more liberal muslims.
I would start a community-based effort to prevent further violence against jews and synagogues. Since the violence is isolated, it's probable that most of the community doesn't support it (yet) and the (presumably) youths who are commiting the violent acts will be more likely to stop if their own elders are helping to stop it from happening than they would if outsiders were seen to be oppressing them.
Now, I don't actually approve of banning the burqa. The women wear it for religious reasons and banning it is preventing them from freely following their own religion.
Though I must ask where you're importing all these burqa-wearing muslims from - in most muslim countries all that is considered necessary is the hajib (headscarf). The burqa is actually quite a new addition to islam, though and the current trend of muslim women covering themselves more is a modern take on islamic piety and is generally adopted my more... stringent islamists. How you're getting all these women to pass the English Language test to get in (assuming secularia has one, I guess) I'll never know, unless their husbands are applying for citizenship and then then bringing their poorly-educated wives and children along. There are plenty of islamic women for whom the hajib is completly optional, too.
Oh, and if I really wanted to break up the community I'd build a really really big shopping mall with really really cheap prices near the enclave. I imagine that one of the main factors in holding the community together would be the local (muslim owned) shops where members of the community could meet and shop together. Certainly some members of the community would shop at the old shops after the super duper mall had opened, but eventually cheap cheap prices would suck them in. I can get you a reference of a situaton where that happened exactly if you like, though I'll have to find it again. I seem to have lost the bibliography for that essay.
The teaching of Arabic in local schools could also encourage some of the muslim families to send their children to schools outside of the enclave, particularly if they're more liberal muslims.
I would start a community-based effort to prevent further violence against jews and synagogues. Since the violence is isolated, it's probable that most of the community doesn't support it (yet) and the (presumably) youths who are commiting the violent acts will be more likely to stop if their own elders are helping to stop it from happening than they would if outsiders were seen to be oppressing them.
Now, I don't actually approve of banning the burqa. The women wear it for religious reasons and banning it is preventing them from freely following their own religion.
Though I must ask where you're importing all these burqa-wearing muslims from - in most muslim countries all that is considered necessary is the hajib (headscarf). The burqa is actually quite a new addition to islam, though and the current trend of muslim women covering themselves more is a modern take on islamic piety and is generally adopted my more... stringent islamists. How you're getting all these women to pass the English Language test to get in (assuming secularia has one, I guess) I'll never know, unless their husbands are applying for citizenship and then then bringing their poorly-educated wives and children along. There are plenty of islamic women for whom the hajib is completly optional, too.
Man. It seems like such a silly thing to reference from, but hey, that's what it says!Abu-Lughod, L. 1993, "Finding a place for Islam: Egyptian Television Serials and the National Interest" Public Culture 5: page 507 wrote:"What is required is that your head be covered; it is fine to expose your hands, your feet and your face."
Oh, and if I really wanted to break up the community I'd build a really really big shopping mall with really really cheap prices near the enclave. I imagine that one of the main factors in holding the community together would be the local (muslim owned) shops where members of the community could meet and shop together. Certainly some members of the community would shop at the old shops after the super duper mall had opened, but eventually cheap cheap prices would suck them in. I can get you a reference of a situaton where that happened exactly if you like, though I'll have to find it again. I seem to have lost the bibliography for that essay.
you can stop the musilms from closing porn or alcohol shops, but you can't force them to shop there. And do you honestly think that the porn and alcohol shops will stay long if they're in an area in which very few people drink or use porn? Or do you think that the owners will move to a more profitable location? You can't force Hugh G. Schlock to keep his porn shop in an unprofitable location just because you want to annoy the people who live there. And what's the porn and alcohol's location going to change about the area? Secularia isn't that big. If they were going to use it then even if it was a way out of their enclave they'd still go there if that's where they had to go. Unless the community's got serious issues then they're not likely to start taking up the booze, and since from the sounds of it, they have quite a strong identity, so that's hardly likely.prevent the local wannabe mullahs from closing porn or alcohol shops,
"I would say that the above post is off-topic, except that I'm not sure what the topic of this thread is, and I don't think anybody else is sure either."
- Darth Wong
Free Durian - Last updated 27 Dec
"Why does it look like you are in China or something?" - havokeff
- Darth Wong
Free Durian - Last updated 27 Dec
"Why does it look like you are in China or something?" - havokeff
- His Divine Shadow
- Commence Primary Ignition
- Posts: 12791
- Joined: 2002-07-03 07:22am
- Location: Finland, west coast
Thats a good idea!Rogue 9 wrote:[Old South Dixiecrat] And all citizens must pass their literacy tests to vote! [/Old South Dixiecrat]aerius wrote:Oppressing immigrants who refuse to learn our language is a positive. Why should they be allowed to vote if they can't read and understand our official language? Understanding the official national language is part of the requirements of citizenship. No English, no vote.Kuja wrote:Have the national language (most likely English) used for every higher-level government function. While you shouldn't have to speak it or read it to be a voter (literary tests would be one way of oppressing immigrants, which would be a negative) it could be a requirement for election to public office.
Also stop the flow of immigrants, like Australia is doing and what the EU should be doing before it's too late.
Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who did not.