Size of Imperial warships and psychological warfare

[Sarevok]

One of the good things about Star Trek : Bridgecommander is the graphics. It looks very good, on a high end machine Bridgecommander can rival the special effects of the Star Trek shows.

One aspect of the excellent graphics is scale. The ships really appear to be hundreds of meters long. One can fly a shuttle beside a Sovereign and appreciate the massive 700 meter long starship.

The Federation starbase is a mere 5 Km strucuture yet appears huge. Think how big and immense a SSD would appear to a Trek captain. Even a mere ISD would be the size of a Cardassian starbase.

So maybe the Federation would rethink fighting once they see the size of larger Imperial ships

[Lord Revan]

One of the good things about Star Trek : Bridgecommander is the graphics. It looks very good, on a high end machine Bridgecommander can rival the special effects of the Star Trek shows.

One aspect of the excellent graphics is scale. The ships really appear to be hundreds of meters long. One can fly a shuttle beside a Sovereign and appreciate the massive 700 meter long starship.

The Federation starbase is a mere 5 Km strucuture yet appears huge. Think how big and immense a SSD would appear to a Trek captain. Even a mere ISD would be the size of a Cardassian starbase.

So maybe the Federation would rethink fighting once they see the size of larger Imperial ships

I dout the federation would rethink just due the size of imerial warships, but when combine the size of ship with the capbility to punch hole into hulls of starfleet ship even thru full shields (well you know what I mean).

[Robert Walper]

One of the good things about Star Trek : Bridgecommander is the graphics. It looks very good, on a high end machine Bridgecommander can rival the special effects of the Star Trek shows.

One aspect of the excellent graphics is scale. The ships really appear to be hundreds of meters long. One can fly a shuttle beside a Sovereign and appreciate the massive 700 meter long starship.

The Federation starbase is a mere 5 Km strucuture yet appears huge. Think how big and immense a SSD would appear to a Trek captain. Even a mere ISD would be the size of a Cardassian starbase.

So maybe the Federation would rethink fighting once they see the size of larger Imperial ships

Unlikely. As pitiful as the Federation's defense would be, they'd still fight, at first anyhow.

A Borg cube after all, dwarfs an ISD and gives even the SSD a run for it's money in scale. And the Federation will still try to fight a Borg cube.

[Lord Revan]

One of the good things about Star Trek : Bridgecommander is the graphics. It looks very good, on a high end machine Bridgecommander can rival the special effects of the Star Trek shows.

One aspect of the excellent graphics is scale. The ships really appear to be hundreds of meters long. One can fly a shuttle beside a Sovereign and appreciate the massive 700 meter long starship.

The Federation starbase is a mere 5 Km strucuture yet appears huge. Think how big and immense a SSD would appear to a Trek captain. Even a mere ISD would be the size of a Cardassian starbase.

So maybe the Federation would rethink fighting once they see the size of larger Imperial ships

Unlikely. As pitiful as the Federation's defense would be, they'd still fight, at first anyhow.

A Borg cube after all, dwarfs an ISD and gives even the SSD a run for it's money in scale. And the Federation will still try to fight a Borg cube.

true, but when have seen The borg use more one Cube to attack the Federation.

[Praxis]

One of the good things about Star Trek : Bridgecommander is the graphics. It looks very good, on a high end machine Bridgecommander can rival the special effects of the Star Trek shows.

One aspect of the excellent graphics is scale. The ships really appear to be hundreds of meters long. One can fly a shuttle beside a Sovereign and appreciate the massive 700 meter long starship.

The Federation starbase is a mere 5 Km strucuture yet appears huge. Think how big and immense a SSD would appear to a Trek captain. Even a mere ISD would be the size of a Cardassian starbase.

So maybe the Federation would rethink fighting once they see the size of larger Imperial ships

Unlikely. As pitiful as the Federation's defense would be, they'd still fight, at first anyhow.

A Borg cube after all, dwarfs an ISD and gives even the SSD a run for it's money in scale. And the Federation will still try to fight a Borg cube.

That's a different case. The Borg WILL wipe the Federation out and assimilate every last person. There is no surviving. So in that case, you DO fight to the death.

If fifty cubes appeared over Earth, and the Borg conquered people instead of assimilating them, the Federation may very well have surrendered, seeing they have ZERO chance in the universe.

[Praxis]

Gah, I wish I could edit the previous post.

So, anyway, my point was, if they see a whole heckuvalot of ISD's, and each ISD is 14 times larger than their largest warship... they'll get scared

[Robert Walper]

true, but when have seen The borg use more one Cube to attack the Federation.

That's not the point. The point was the enemy craft dwarfing Federation ships and inspiring terror and capitulation without a fight. Do you really think Starfleet would sit back and just surrender, even if the Borg sent two, three or a hundred cubes?

[Robert Walper]

*snip*

I really think you underestimate the Federation's willingness to fight. Did Kirk hesistate to fight the planet killer in TOS "The Doomsday machine"? Did Picard shrink in terror at the sheer size of the Borg cube in "Q, Who?"? Did Picard stand, mouth hanging when sunning across the Dyson sphere?

No no, Starfleet will never surrender on the basis of impressive ship sizes. Firepower, speed, numbers and Imperial ruthlessness on the other hand...

[Vympel]

The Borg simply aren't the kind of enemy one would surrender to- at least under the Empire there would be a possibility for a normal human life, the Borg offer nothing.

[Robert Walper]

The Borg simply aren't the kind of enemy one would surrender to- at least under the Empire there would be a possibility for a normal human life, the Borg offer nothing.

There would easily be the possibility for a normal life under the Dominion, yet the Federation didn't surrender there either.

The entire point is the Federation is not going to surrender just because the Imperials have "big" ships.

[Darth Wong]

It won't be a factor for starship crews, only for fighter and runabout crews. Fighter and runabout crews have naked-eye cockpit windows and can judge scale directly. But starship crews look at everything thruogh an electronic viewscreen. Size is a mere function of zoom factor; there would be little palpable sense of scale.

[Praxis]

The Borg simply aren't the kind of enemy one would surrender to- at least under the Empire there would be a possibility for a normal human life, the Borg offer nothing.

There would easily be the possibility for a normal life under the Dominion, yet the Federation didn't surrender there either.

The entire point is the Federation is not going to surrender just because the Imperials have "big" ships.

The Dominion didn't have 17 kilometer long ships. They had a few 4km ships, but not many (we only saw what, three?).

Just the sight of hundreds of 1.6 km ships with a 17km long flagship would strike fear into the Federation.

Did Picard shrink in terror at the sheer size of the Borg cube in "Q, Who?"?

No, he hadn't seen the capabilities of it.

But let me tell you, AFTER BoBW, AFTER he had seen what a single cube is capable of doing, he would have shrunk in terror had he seen a hundred cubes heading straight for Earth. A Star Destroyer can likely cause a lot more damage than a Borg Cube ever could...

Did Kirk hesistate to fight the planet killer in TOS "The Doomsday machine"?

If there had been hundreds of planet killers, and they were all headed for Earth and there was no possible way to stop them, but they offered terms of surrender which, if accepted, would spare earth, do you think the Federation would have done it, or condemned the entire planet earth to destruction?

Did Picard stand, mouth hanging when sunning across the Dyson sphere?

Actually, yes, he did. He was in complete shock. But the Dyson Sphere wasn't hostile, so he had no problem.

Now, had the Dyson Sphere suddenly reached out and nuked a planet (death star style), Picard would have been shouting, "Helm, get us out of here, maximum warp!"

No no, Starfleet will never surrender on the basis of impressive ship sizes. Firepower, speed, numbers and Imperial ruthlessness on the other hand...

That's what I mean. Superior size AND Firepower to size ratio.

If a 100m Imperial ship is vastly more powerful than a 100m Federation ship, and they see the Empire with 17km long ships...they WILL get scared.

[Straha]

It won't be a factor for starship crews, only for fighter and runabout crews. Fighter and runabout crews have naked-eye cockpit windows and can judge scale directly. But starship crews look at everything thruogh an electronic viewscreen. Size is a mere function of zoom factor; there would be little palpable sense of scale.

It will have a somewhat palpable impact on the bridge crews, the Sensors operator is going to see this, the navigator too probably, the Captain and first officer for sure. If these key people know they're going up against an enemy they can't possibly beat, why bother trying?

I think they would try to pull a 'we surrender to save our people the pain of harsh conquest and destruction,' they might not get away with it, but they could still try.

[Robert Walper]

No, he hadn't seen the capabilities of it.

But let me tell you, AFTER BoBW, AFTER he had seen what a single cube is capable of doing, he would have shrunk in terror had he seen a hundred cubes heading straight for Earth. A Star Destroyer can likely cause a lot more damage than a Borg Cube ever could...

I rest my case. I've simply been pointing out that size alone of Imperial starships is not going to make the Federation surrender, capabilities of the Empire is what will (if they're smart about it).

[Praxis]

No, he hadn't seen the capabilities of it.

But let me tell you, AFTER BoBW, AFTER he had seen what a single cube is capable of doing, he would have shrunk in terror had he seen a hundred cubes heading straight for Earth. A Star Destroyer can likely cause a lot more damage than a Borg Cube ever could...

I rest my case. I've simply been pointing out that size alone of Imperial starships is not going to make the Federation surrender, capabilities of the Empire is what will (if they're smart about it).

True, but my point is the combination of size and capabilities is what'd scare them.

They're not going to be scared of 1.6km long cardboard ships that blow up in one shot, OBVIOUSLY. But 1.6km long ships that rain destruction down and can wipe out entire fleets of theirs, well... that might be intimidating

[Robert Walper]

True, but my point is the combination of size and capabilities is what'd scare them.

They're not going to be scared of 1.6km long cardboard ships that blow up in one shot, OBVIOUSLY. But 1.6km long ships that rain destruction down and can wipe out entire fleets of theirs, well... that might be intimidating

Well, the OP author's entire point was along the lines of semantics, and the Federation has come across much larger, more dangerous "looking" foes. After all, Picard didn't hesitate to open fire on the Borg cube despite the massive disparity in size between both vessels.

Frankly, I doubt size comparisons will do anything of importance in Starfleet tactical projections, rather than perhaps estimates on Imperial industrial capability.

[Master of Ossus]

I don't think that the size of various warships would deter a UFP fleet. That would be done by their firepower, shielding, and systems.

[Robert Walper]

I don't think that the size of various warships would deter a UFP fleet. That would be done by their firepower, shielding, and systems.

Precisely.

[Kerneth]

Best way to cut an Empire/Federation war short would be to drop an Executor and a few dozen ISDs out of hyperspace around Earth, then lower their shields and let the Federation's sensors get a good scan of them.

The power levels alone, if the Federation can get a read on them, should send people scrambling for white flags. Not to mention when the Feds start getting a readout of weapons mounts, etc.

Let the Federation get a good look at what they'd be fighting, then spell out fairly generous surrender terms--after all, it's the Empire, as soon as you disarm Starfleet you can always "renegotiate" the settlement. Sheer size won't force a surrender, but that might.

[SirNitram]

Size would only matter if the true behemoths entered the arena.

Torpedo spheres, worldships, Death Stars, and similarly mind-bendingly huge craft would give the Federation pause.

This isn't just talking spit. The near-breathless superlatives lavished on the planetary forcefield generator of the T'kon outpost world in The Last Outpost were at the mere ability to reach from orbit and grab two ships. Compare this to the first Death Star's tractor beam.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

It won't be a factor for starship crews, only for fighter and runabout crews. Fighter and runabout crews have naked-eye cockpit windows and can judge scale directly. But starship crews look at everything thruogh an electronic viewscreen. Size is a mere function of zoom factor; there would be little palpable sense of scale.

Not when they fight so close that the viewscreen is locked at 1.0x magnification. They would have to deliberately SHRINK the image to make the ISD or Executor look less impressive, but zooming tends to make range perspective less accurate (the zoom-up blows everything regardless of distance equally, while actually getting closer makes different things enlarge at different rates depending on their distance), so at the close range, they would probably stick to 1x zoom.

[Darth Wong]

You must also consider the fact that the vast majority of crewmembers actually have no idea what's going on outside, and are only concerned with their own direct duties. They're locked inside the ship and don't even know exactly what's going on outside. Someone whose job is ensuring that torpedoes load smoothly into the launchers is not going to be looking at pretty pictures of external viewers. So crew morale (or least, morale among most of the crew) is not going to be affected by the visual appearance of these vessels.

The only people on the ship who can probably see the enemy vessels are the bridge crew and the people in Ten Forward, which I assume would be pretty deserted in a red-alert battle stations situation. And the bridge crew would probably be much more intimidated by the power readings they're getting off these unfamiliar alien vessels, not to mention the fact that they appeared out of nowhere with no warning and no warp signature, already in striking distance of whatever planet they're interested in.

[Robert Walper]

Size would only matter if the true behemoths entered the arena.

Torpedo spheres, worldships, Death Stars, and similarly mind-bendingly huge craft would give the Federation pause.

Kinda overkill, ain't though? According to the common consensus of SDN, a single ISD should easily bring the entire Federation to it's knees. Deploying the DS or other super weapons is kinda like going after a mosquito with a tactical nuclear weapon...

[Darth Wong]

Kinda overkill, ain't though? According to the common consensus of SDN, a single ISD should easily bring the entire Federation to it's knees. Deploying the DS or other super weapons is kinda like going after a mosquito with a tactical nuclear weapon...

I should think that the combination of an SSD's size and its ability to virtually pop out of nowhere in Earth orbit would be much more terrifying (than previous opponents, not Death Stars). Even the Borg could be tracked and attacked all the way in, and had to fight a long battle just to get close to Earth. Transwarp may be some super-perversion of warp, but it's still related enough and slow enough that they can track and intercept. If these guys just suddenly appear in Earth orbit with such large ships, that's got to be more than a little frightening for the handful of crew members that can actually see what's going on.

[Robert Walper]

Kinda overkill, ain't though? According to the common consensus of SDN, a single ISD should easily bring the entire Federation to it's knees. Deploying the DS or other super weapons is kinda like going after a mosquito with a tactical nuclear weapon...

I should think that the combination of an SSD's size and its ability to virtually pop out of nowhere in Earth orbit would be much more terrifying. Even the Borg could be tracked and attacked all the way in, and had to fight a long battle just to get close to Earth. Transwarp may be some super-perversion of warp, but it's still related enough and slow enough that they can track and intercept. If these guys just suddenly appear in Earth orbit with such large ships, that's got to be more than a little frightening for the handful of crew members that can actually see what's going on.

True enough, but I'd think the size issue would be secondary compared to the capability of the vessel to virtually come from no where and demand surrender.

As Yoda once said, size matters not.