Eagle Scouts kicking out someone cause he's an Atheist.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2002-11-01 04:13pm

I think its too bad that the BSA has that policy, but they do. Thats life, and I wouldn't presume to tell them to change it. Its there idiocy, but its also their organization.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-11-01 04:57pm

Dismissal of gays is one thing, but this is another entirely. It's blatantly unconstitutional, and it is almost certainly illegal in every state.

Shadowhawk · Post by **Shadowhawk** » 2002-11-01 06:17pm

I was a Boy Scout (well, a Cub Scout) back when I lived in Kent, WA. It was a pretty small and generally laid-back Troop (416, if I remember right) and my mom just signed off on all the religious requirements in the book without having me do them.
When we moved, the local Troop was a lot larger and the one meeting we attended was significantly less fun than I was used to. That was the end of my Scouting experience--not even far enough to get into camping and tying knots. I wasn't really disappointed, either. I didn't know any of these kids (the kids in my Den were all people I was in Kindergarten with), and I think I was getting tired of it anyway.

There was the hilariously bad letter to the editor in the Seattle Times about this expulsion. I'll type it up when I get home. I'm still composing my own reply to it.

Post by **Steve** » 2002-11-01 07:10pm

Master of Ossus wrote:Dismissal of gays is one thing, but this is another entirely. It's blatantly unconstitutional, and it is almost certainly illegal in every state.

Just that it's not.

I think this is probably the result of hardliners within the structure, I wouldn't be surprised if most major Boy Scout leaders don't give a damn about it. Just the hardliners/legalists.

Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi · Post by **Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi** » 2002-11-01 07:29pm

I agree that they'be bing too bigtoed recently, but if you don't go around preaching your Atheism to everyone, they'll never know. It's said, but can't be enforced. Some scoutmasters aren't as bigoted, and won't follow the rules.

Anyway, I don't think cutting off funding to them will work. Higher-income troops can get donations from individuals, while poorer troops will shut down.

I'm a Boy Scout, and there was a kid that told the scoutmaster that he was an Atheist, and he didn't mind. I'm having a pretty good experience there.

Shadowhawk · Post by **Shadowhawk** » 2002-11-01 07:38pm

Here's a link to the letter; look for the one by Tim Clark, titled 'A Scout is Reverent'.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/e ... ets31.html

Text of the letter (my transcription, not a cut/paste, since I transcribed it before I went online and it has the tags in place already. Any typos are my own) :

The atheist Boy Scout seems to be a nice person, who appears to lvoe truth. So I offer him this short proof for Gods' existence.
Voltaire said, "Since things exist, at least one thing has always existed." This means that since anything at all exists, then at least one "thing" has existed eternally into the past. To prove this, we can look around us and see that "things" exist. Each "thing" we see has been caused by some other "thing". That other "thing" has also been caused by yet another "thing" previously. And so on back forever.
But what is this thing that has always existed? Is it material, or piritual? Atheists will usually say that the material universe is that "thing" that has always existed. Theists will usually say that the spiritual universe ("God") is that "thing" that has always existed. Thus, either matter or mind seems to be our two options. Atheists will say "matter" has always existed; theists will say "mind" has always existed.
The theist refers to all the scientific order of the universe to an intelligent cause that knows what it is doing. The atheist refers to the scientific order of the universe to a mindless cause that hasn't hte faintest idea what it is doing. It is like comparing a blind driver of a car t one with 20/20 vision: Which is more likely to drive the car of the universe in an organized manner?
A book is not written by the laws of spelling in grammar, but according to these laws. Similarly, the universe is not written by the laws of gravitation and other scientific laws, but according to those scientific laws. Both the book and the universe require an author.

Have fun, folks:
opinion@seattletimes.com

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2002-11-01 10:22pm

It just so happens that the only troops in y area are mormon sponsored. I would have been kicked out. Oh well, it wasnt fun. I was made fun of by the entire troop because I was a social liberal who thought for myself, rather than an unthinking socially conservative mormon. We didnt even do fun merit badges as a group. As a group we would get golfing merit badges(as opposed to the fun ones like reptile and amphibian study, and archery)

Post by **haas mark** » 2002-11-01 10:23pm

Alyrium Denryle wrote:It just so happens that the only troops in y area are mormon sponsored. I would have been kicked out. Oh well, it wasnt fun. I was made fun of by the entire troop because I was a social liberal who thought for myself, rather than an unthinking socially conservative mormon. We didnt even do fun merit badges as a group. As a group we would get golfing merit badges(as opposed to the fun ones like reptile and amphibian study, and archery)

No...things like that are evil....

*thinks of the Waterboy*

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-11-01 10:24pm

Wow, that letter can be summed up as "giant leap in logic". As usual for fundies.

TrailerParkJawa · Post by **TrailerParkJawa** » 2002-11-01 10:39pm

Originally posted by verilon:

This pisses me off. Why should they be allowed to bar anyone due to sexual orientation OR religious affiliation?

Because, as a private organization, it's their right to exclude people from membership on certain basis.

The same right to exclude you from the Boy Scouts also allows you to have athiests or gay only club. It goes both ways.

What the Boy Scouts cant do, is bar you from joining, then accept govt money for some Boy Scout project or meeting place.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2002-11-01 10:45pm

They are wrong, is it legal.... yes but they are wrong in every other way. However, why would this guy want to be part of an organization that not only doesn't want him but would do this kind of shit too him?

Fortunatly or unfortunatly depending on how you look at it, it is not illegal to be an asshole but it doesn't change the fact that they are asshole's.

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2002-11-01 11:19pm

Personally, I roll my eyes whenever someone gets offended over 'God Bless America' 'In God We Trust', etc. etc. but this is fucking wrong.

The BSA sucks ass. I quit for a number of reasons, and my overall disgust with the organization was one of them.

TrailerParkJawa · Post by **TrailerParkJawa** » 2002-11-01 11:26pm

They are wrong, is it legal.... yes but they are wrong in every other way. However, why would this guy want to be part of an organization that not only doesn't want him but would do this kind of shit too him?

Fortunatly or unfortunatly depending on how you look at it, it is not illegal to be an asshole but it doesn't change the fact that they are asshole's.
_________________

I think he enjoys being a involved with the scouts, I dont believe his beliefs even came out except for casual conversatoin.

I think its a tough place to be when you are in an organization you generally enjoy that just has some dumb ass policies. But Ive noticed that all groups go through experiences like this. Some of the original Sierra Club folks left along time ago because the organization has been overtaken by zealots.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-11-01 11:41pm

The BSA may be a private organization, but they're also a group that asks for donations from a lot of people. I think that any group which asks for donations should be required to say what they're for, and in this case, the BSA should be required to say "please donate to help support religious intolerance". You know, scout's honesty and all that.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2002-11-02 01:15am

I have never been in the BSA but doesn't the whole god, religeous motiff pretty much run through the entire thing?

TrailerParkJawa · Post by **TrailerParkJawa** » 2002-11-02 01:19am

I have never been in the BSA but doesn't the whole god, religeous motiff pretty much run through the entire thing?

Not to my knowledge. Its part of their pledge or something but day to day stuff it is not really there. They had this scout guy on the radio here and he didnt make it sound like they are always talking about god.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2002-11-02 01:39am

TrailerParkJawa wrote:
I have never been in the BSA but doesn't the whole god, religeous motiff pretty much run through the entire thing?
Not to my knowledge. Its part of their pledge or something but day to day stuff it is not really there. They had this scout guy on the radio here and he didnt make it sound like they are always talking about god.

OK, but if it is in the pledge then wouldn't that be an indicator for the more agnostic or atheist type people? The fact that some of these guy's meet in a church as someone said, wouldn't that raise some flag's. Don't get me wrong I do not want to defend the jerks but don't these guy's who keep getting kicked out have some copability as well?

TrailerParkJawa · Post by **TrailerParkJawa** » 2002-11-02 01:43am

OK, but if it is in the pledge then wouldn't that be an indicator for the more agnostic or atheist type people? The fact that some of these guy's meet in a church as someone said, wouldn't that raise some flag's. Don't get me wrong I do not want to defend the jerks but don't these guy's who keep getting kicked out have some copability as well?

I agree with this statement, but I think in this case, the guy developed into an athiest over time. He didnt start that way.

But overall I get kinda mad when people do things like move next to a duck hunting range, then lobby to get the range closed.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2002-11-02 01:50am

TrailerParkJawa wrote:
OK, but if it is in the pledge then wouldn't that be an indicator for the more agnostic or atheist type people? The fact that some of these guy's meet in a church as someone said, wouldn't that raise some flag's. Don't get me wrong I do not want to defend the jerks but don't these guy's who keep getting kicked out have some copability as well?
I agree with this statement, but I think in this case, the guy developed into an athiest over time. He didnt start that way.

But overall I get kinda mad when people do things like move next to a duck hunting range, then lobby to get the range closed.

Agreed. Around here people move next to the AFB and then start complaining about the load noise of the jets that fly over them. Dumb, really dumb.

Priesto · Post by **Priesto** » 2002-11-02 03:01am

Stupid, uncalled for and pathetic.

He doesn't believe in something I do therefore he can go jump off a cliff for all I care.

Post by **Steve** » 2002-11-02 08:52am

Priesto wrote:Stupid, uncalled for and pathetic. He doesn't believe in something I do therefore he can go jump off a cliff for all I care.

You, sir, are a fucking idiot.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2002-11-02 10:44am

Priesto wrote:Stupid, uncalled for and pathetic. He doesn't believe in something I do therefore he can go jump off a cliff for all I care.

I've got a better idea, why don't we push you off first.

C.S.Strowbridge · Post by **C.S.Strowbridge** » 2002-11-02 05:08pm

Priesto wrote:Stupid, uncalled for and pathetic. He doesn't believe in something I do therefore he can go jump off a cliff for all I care.

You give fundies a bad name.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-11-02 05:16pm

Priesto wrote:Stupid, uncalled for and pathetic. He doesn't believe in something I do therefore he can go jump off a cliff for all I care.

You, sir, are an idiot. Just FYI.

VF5SS · Post by **VF5SS** » 2002-11-02 05:19pm

Priesto wrote:Stupid, uncalled for and pathetic. He doesn't believe in something I do therefore he can go jump off a cliff for all I care.

Oh go jump for Jesus if you're so sure you'll be saved.