[Barton]The Federation is NOT Communist.

[Rihannsu Science Officer]

http://www.st-minutiae.com/academy/literature329 This has scripts for almost all TNG and DS9 episodes, and movies and a handful of ENT/VOY eps. Read them if you think I'm BS'ing here.

The majority of my argument will center on one TNG episode in particular, TNG's season 3 episode, "The Most Toys." Quotes follow, they're all from TMT unless otherwise specified.

PICARD (V.O.)
Captain's log, Stardate 43872.2. In order to neutralize a sudden contamination of the water supply at the Federation colony on Beta Agni Two, we are procuring one hundred and eight kilos of hytritium from the Zibalian trader, Kivas Fajo.

They clearly have to buy something from Fajo. He's selling. He's a businessman. His vessel would certainly fall under the category of "capital."

PICARD (to Fajo) I realize we have acquired your complete supply of hytritium. Do you know where we could obtain more?
FAJO: That may be difficult. The only source I know is in the Sigma Erani System.

If Fajo were selling illegally, would he so cavalierly reveal his source, and risk the Federation "communist" authorities mining it all and selling it, eating his profits, and destroying his business and livelihood? Not unless he's an idiot.

DATA I do not intend to sit in the chair.
FAJO You will. You don't believe it yet. But you will.

He goes to a wall safe with a combination lock... and opens it... takes out a nasty looking hand weapon which we will call a disruptor.

FAJO Have you ever seen one of these, Data?
DATA I do not recognize it.
FAJO I'm not surprised. This is the prototype of the Varon-T disruptor.
DATA (reacts) The Varon-T disruptor is banned in the Federation.
FAJO Yes. Only five were ever manufactured. I own four. I sleep with one under my pillow. I sleep very well knowing it's there.
DATA It is a most lethal weapon.
FAJO Oh, it's much more than lethal, Data. It's vicious. It tears a body from the inside out, quite slowly by phaser standards, a tortuous, painful death. (beat, pointed) I've always wanted to try it.

This is where we see what Fajo is capable of. More to the point of the argument, that one sentence, "The Varon-T disruptor is banned in the Federation." establishes two things: Kivas Fajo is a Federation citizen, yet he conducts business. Secondly, it establishes that not all disruptors are banned in the Federation. It is doubtful the Federation Council specifically banned the Varon-T if only five were made, but it is more likely banned as part of a larger class of torture weapons that are banned. This refutes the claim of Federation citizens not being allowed to possess weapons.

DATA Yes, Commander. Please arrange to take Kivas Fajo into custody for murder, kidnapping, theft...

No mention of charges for conducting business in the Federation or earning a profit. As for the charges of possessing illegal disruptors, he probably stole them.

FAJO Do not count me out so quickly. I had you once. I may have you back in my collection again.
DATA
Unlikely. Your collection has been confiscated pending your trial. All of your stolen possessions are being returned to their rightful owners.
(MORE)

STAR TREK: "The Most Toys" - REV. 2/26/90 - ACT FIVE 56-57.
74 CONTINUED:
DATA (Cont'd) You have lost everything you value.

Apparently Fajo's ship hasn't been confiscated, and it's his most valuable possession of all.

While irrelevant to the main point of the argument, it seems Fajo expects to be out in a few years despite a murder and kidnapping charge over his head and numerous theft charges. He expects Data to become part of his collection again.

Another reference to a civilian owning a weapon, in TNG4: The Wounded:

O'BRIEN Cardassians were advancing on us, moving through the streets, destroying, killing... I was with a group of women and children when two Cardassian soldiers burst in... I stunned the one, but the other jumped me... we struggled... one of the women threw me a phaser and I fired...

O'Brien takes a sip of beer.
O'BRIEN The phaser was set at maximum. The man just... incinerated... there, before my eyes.

moved to Parting Shots due to the banning it contains. ~fg

[StarshipTitanic]

About Fajo, do we know if he's a citizen of the Federation? Anyway, just because a government is communist doesn't mean they don't understand the concept of money.

As for the O'Brien story, who knows where the woman got her weapon from.

[darthdavid]

Another reference to a civilian owning a weapon, in TNG4: The Wounded:

O'BRIEN Cardassians were advancing on us, moving through the streets, destroying, killing... I was with a group of women and children when two Cardassian soldiers burst in... I stunned the one, but the other jumped me... we struggled... one of the women threw me a phaser and I fired...

O'Brien takes a sip of beer.
O'BRIEN The phaser was set at maximum. The man just... incinerated... there, before my eyes.

IT WAS A FUCKING ATTACK BY CARDASSIANS!!! What do you think they're gonna do let their citizens be attacked and killed? No they're gonna arm them. That hardly proves that the federation let's it's citizens have weapons under normal circumstances.

[Master of Ossus]

There is no evidence, whatsoever, that Fajo was a Federation citizen. He is sated to be a "Zalosian" trader, and had possession of a weapon in spite of the fact that it was banned in the Federation.

Second, there is no evidence whatsoever that the woman owned the phaser. It was a colony that was being attacked by Cardassians, and on a frontier settlement it would make sense for colonists to be given phasers, anyway.

[Rihannsu Science Officer]

If Fajo's not a Federation citizen, Data's statement about his weapon being banned in the Federation would be irrelevant.

About the colonist with the phaser and the Cardassian, it has been claimed that Vulcan is likely weapons-free despite the Romulan threat to conquer it, hence the claim the Romulans could take it with 2,000 troops.

My own theory on THAT matter is that the 2,000 troops were to be a mere foothold on Vulcan, and await reinforcements.

[Lancer]

If Fajo's not a Federation citizen, Data's statement about his weapon being banned in the Federation would be irrelevant.

About the colonist with the phaser and the Cardassian, it has been claimed that Vulcan is likely weapons-free despite the Romulan threat to conquer it, hence the claim the Romulans could take it with 2,000 troops.

My own theory on THAT matter is that the 2,000 troops were to be a mere foothold on Vulcan, and await reinforcements.

there's also the possibilty of Romulan sympathizers. Just how much do they want to reunify?

[Gandalf]

If Fajo's not a Federation citizen, Data's statement about his weapon being banned in the Federation would be irrelevant.

He could still be in Federation space.

[Master of Ossus]

If Fajo's not a Federation citizen, Data's statement about his weapon being banned in the Federation would be irrelevant.

No it wouldn't be. For one thing, Data is a Federation officer and must uphold the laws. The way he is, it could easily have been a warning to Fajo. Also, it's the sort of "matter of fact" thing that Data would say when confronted with such a weapon.

About the colonist with the phaser and the Cardassian, it has been claimed that Vulcan is likely weapons-free despite the Romulan threat to conquer it, hence the claim the Romulans could take it with 2,000 troops.

What does that have to do with a colony world near Cardassian space? Even if Vulcan WERE weapons-free, it would still be ridiculous to assert that because a ridiculously civilized and powerful planet in the UFP has no phasers, then a frontier colony on a world near a hostile alien government may well still have weapons.

My own theory on THAT matter is that the 2,000 troops were to be a mere foothold on Vulcan, and await reinforcements.

That's been proposed, but it doesn't really fit the episode. The plan was to get the troops dug in so deeply that they couldn't be removed.

[Gil Hamilton]

It should also be noted that the lady in the O'Brien example was living in the border area with the Cardassians, which has always had supplimental sources of armament from the Federation. After all, this is where the Maquis arose and built a private military to fight the Cardassians because the Federation sold them out. They clearly aren't exactly model rank and file Federation citizens, are they?

About the colonist with the phaser and the Cardassian, it has been claimed that Vulcan is likely weapons-free despite the Romulan threat to conquer it, hence the claim the Romulans could take it with 2,000 troops.

My own theory on THAT matter is that the 2,000 troops were to be a mere foothold on Vulcan, and await reinforcements.

Reinforcements would have never have come. Vulcan is right next to Earth. If the Romulans attack them, even in a surpise attack, the Federation is in an excellent position to blockade the planet to prevent their reinforcement. And frankly, 2000 romulans couldn't take over Cleveland, let alone an either planet, yet Sela thought so little of the Federation that they thought they had a shot of forcing Vulcans surrender.

[Rihannsu Science Officer]

My point was to refute the claim that the Federation is Communist. Fajo's ability to openly conduct business in Federation space, whether he's a citizen or not, refutes that the Federation is Communist. He owns a freaking SHIP, for Christ's sake. He uses this ship to travel the galaxy selling his wares and presumably generating income. Sounds like capital to me. And if he is NOT a citizen, he would have had to immigrate. Why would a capitalist do business in a Communist country, where the taxes are mind-numbingly high? He could keep more of his profits if he did business elsewhere. Secondly, I attempt to refute the claim that planetary weapons bans are a requirement for Federation membership. The fact that there were armed colonists ANYWHERE in the Federation accomplishes that.

[Demandred]

Why would a capitalist do business in a Communist country, where the taxes are mind-numbingly high

There's still profit to be made from trading with the federation, Fajo was only there to get Data anyway so he didn't really want to trade. His collection was his primary goal so loss in trade profits wasn't something he was going to care about.

[Gandalf]

My point was to refute the claim that the Federation is Communist. Fajo's ability to openly conduct business in Federation space, whether he's a citizen or not, refutes that the Federation is Communist. He owns a freaking SHIP, for Christ's sake. He uses this ship to travel the galaxy selling his wares and presumably generating income. Sounds like capital to me. And if he is NOT a citizen, he would have had to immigrate.

He could easily have permission to conduct business in Federation space. Hell, he could even be passing through. After all, Quark's ship went through Federation space with no immigration business.

Why would a capitalist do business in a Communist country, where the taxes are mind-numbingly high? He could keep more of his profits if he did business elsewhere.

If the Federation won't charge Quark for running his business, why charge Fajo? How do you have taxes in a state with no money?

[Butterbean569]

If the UFP is not Communist, what would you say it is? While you have a couple of decent points, there are still many examples that show it to be a Communist state...

I'm sure the USSR had some non-Communist aspects to it, but since that's what it most closely resembled, that's what it was called. Same goes for the Feds I think...

[Stravo]

My point was to refute the claim that the Federation is Communist. Fajo's ability to openly conduct business in Federation space, whether he's a citizen or not, refutes that the Federation is Communist.

Do you know anything about Communism. Its a fallacy to believe that Communists do not trade at all. BTW at the height of the Cold War the United States was selling huge amounts of grain to the USSR. The USSR did much business with outside nations, what choice did it have? If you are a communist nation surrounded by non communist nations that have something you want then you must engage in trade to survive no?

He owns a freaking SHIP, for Christ's sake. He uses this ship to travel the galaxy selling his wares and presumably generating income. Sounds like capital to me. And if he is NOT a citizen, he would have had to immigrate.

Care to explain your logic here? Are you seriously stating that in order to engage in trade with a communist nation you must be a citizen of that nation? Let me clue you in that history certainly finds that notion laughable.

Why would a capitalist do business in a Communist country, where the taxes are mind-numbingly high? He could keep more of his profits if he did business elsewhere.

Because he would still be making money. In your own previously provided quote he had access to a very rare commodity and any fundamental understanding of trade will tell you that he could command a very high price for that commodity. And perhaps this commodity is of most use in the Federation. Besides, he wanted Data, the entire premise of the episode.

Secondly, I attempt to refute the claim that planetary weapons bans are a requirement for Federation membership. The fact that there were armed colonists ANYWHERE in the Federation accomplishes that.

The fact that the Maquis needed to smuggle weapons IN and build their own weapons refutes this idea that they are armed. These colonists bordered very hostile Cardasian space and they were unarmed.

As to your quote about the phaser, it needs a leap of logic that the phaser was the woman's. Could have been a phaser from a fallen soldier in the room, or even one that O'Brien's had that fell in the struggle. I can spin out other theories to counter yours with that quote that are easily as reasonable thus the quote is worthless.

[Gil Hamilton]

My point was to refute the claim that the Federation is Communist. Fajo's ability to openly conduct business in Federation space, whether he's a citizen or not, refutes that the Federation is Communist. He owns a freaking SHIP, for Christ's sake. He uses this ship to travel the galaxy selling his wares and presumably generating income. Sounds like capital to me. And if he is NOT a citizen, he would have had to immigrate. Why would a capitalist do business in a Communist country, where the taxes are mind-numbingly high? He could keep more of his profits if he did business elsewhere. Secondly, I attempt to refute the claim that planetary weapons bans are a requirement for Federation membership. The fact that there were armed colonists ANYWHERE in the Federation accomplishes that.

Actually, it does not. If he's not a Federation citizen, then laws against private ownership rights don't apply to him, do they? By your logic, that Quark has a shop on a Federation run station and that he sells to Federation people, that proves that the Federation isn't communist.

Secondly, the Federation colonists were arming themselves against the Federations will. They weren't supposed to even be armed and the first thing the Federation did when the Maquis started shooting up Cardassians arms shipments to their colonists was to crack down on their own citizens. The fact that the Federation citizens were arming themselves with smuggled Federation gear and weapons from outside sources was such a big deal to the Federation that they were willing to open fire own their own people in order to protect the Cardassians.

Of course, in all of this, you are overlooking numerous examples of communism in the Federation. For instance, Deanna Trois many bits about how the Federation has no poverty or anything like that (common communist tag line, beside, it's impossible for no one to live in poverty unless everyone has exactly equal money). Or in TNG "The Neutral Zone" where you got Picard going on about how people don't want stuff anymore and that no one needs money, Crusher was completely befuddled by the concept of being paid for treatment, and no one had the slightest clue what the guy was talking about when he mentioned his stocks. Or in "First Contact" where Picard goes on his little speech to Lily about how no one works for money anymore and that everyone works for the "good of humanity" when she asked him how much the Enterpise cost to build.

[Master of Ossus]

My point was to refute the claim that the Federation is Communist. Fajo's ability to openly conduct business in Federation space, whether he's a citizen or not, refutes that the Federation is Communist.

No it doesn't. Communist countries could still trade with capitalist ones. How do you think Xerox machines got into the Soviet Union? Theft?

He owns a freaking SHIP, for Christ's sake. He uses this ship to travel the galaxy selling his wares and presumably generating income. Sounds like capital to me. And if he is NOT a citizen, he would have had to immigrate.

No he wouldn't have. Businessmen and merchants do not need to be citizens in order to trade within a communist country.

Why would a capitalist do business in a Communist country, where the taxes are mind-numbingly high?

Because there's profit to be made, doofus. Even if the taxes were unusually high, there could still be profit to be made.

He could keep more of his profits if he did business elsewhere.

1. Prove that high transaction taxes are inherent to a communist model.
2. Regardless, if the price was high enough he could still conceivably make more money trading with the UFP than elsewhere.

Secondly, I attempt to refute the claim that planetary weapons bans are a requirement for Federation membership. The fact that there were armed colonists ANYWHERE in the Federation accomplishes that.

1. Where, in the OP, did you set out to do that?
2. A hand-phaser defeats the claim that UFP worlds don't have planetary weapons?
3. The Maquis were arming themselves with smuggled weapons. That hardly disproves a claim about UFP planets not being able to have weapons, since the Maquis had to SMUGGLE their weapons in order to get them in the first place.

[CDiehl]

If this is a capitalist society, why do we see no advertising, nor any brand names or logos anywhere? Why would capitalist society get rid of such things? Why does Starfleet have nothing at all with a company symbol on it?

As for the idea of sending 2000 men to Vulcan to secure it, there are plenty of good arguments I can give against that, but it's a side issue, so I'll make it short. If 2000 men is all you need to knock over a planet, why did the US military waste so many men invading Afghanistan and Iraq? If so few men are needed, we could conquer the world with what forces we have now, and probably have troops to spare; just send 2000 men per country and we're golden. If you can explain why that is a silly idea, you can understand how 2000 people can't conquer a much bigger target.

[Stofsk]

If this is a capitalist society, why do we see no advertising, nor any brand names or logos anywhere? Why would capitalist society get rid of such things? Why does Starfleet have nothing at all with a company symbol on it?

I would also like to point out that communication, publication, transportation, and production is largely, if not fully, controlled by the state. The subspace relay network is staffed by military officers ("Aquiel"); there seems to be only one source of publications we ever hear about, and they're controlled by starfleet (Bashir saying "This might get me into the Starfleet Cybernetics Journal" or something similar); transportation seems to be largely under the perview of Starfleet, we rarely if ever see independently owned shuttles or short range starships in the possession of civilians; and production seems to be heavily controlled by the state and starfleet. All of this is highly implicatory.

If you can explain why that is a silly idea, you can understand how 2000 people can't conquer a much bigger target.

I keep on saying, Sela was executed for gross incompetence after that clusterfuck of an operation.

[Vympel]

Good to know that most defences against the Federation being communist are still based on knowing fuck-all about communism.

[Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman]

My point was to refute the claim that the Federation is Communist. Fajo's ability to openly conduct business in Federation space, whether he's a citizen or not, refutes that the Federation is Communist.

Imagine this headline on Pravda:

"Yesterday, several trade representatives from United States had came to our land to sign the final part of the transaction. Their ability to openly conduct business in Soviet space, whether they are citizens or not, refutes that the Soviet Union is Communist. So we are not communist. It is nothing more than Western Propaganda."

He owns a freaking SHIP, for Christ's sake. He uses this ship to travel the galaxy selling his wares and presumably generating income. Sounds like capital to me.

Relax, the ship is definitely NOT capital. Apparently he bought the ship for charity purpose, *because* he used the ship for selling wares and generating income. Duh.

Sounds like Captain Obvious to me.

And if he is NOT a citizen, he would have had to immigrate.

So when US trade representatives come to Cuba to conduct *trade*, they have to immigrate? sigh...

Why would a capitalist do business in a Communist country, where the taxes are mind-numbingly high? He could keep more of his profits if he did business elsewhere.

1. Why not? It's still PROFIT, isn't it?
2. Prove that Kivas Fajo will get more profits elsewhere on this particular commodity during that time?
3. Prove that selling hytritium to the Feds will actually *hurt* Fajo's business?

[Thanas]

It should also be noted that in the DDR (German Democratic Republic), despite having a communist regime, private entrepeneurs/businessmen did exist. They were taxed heavily, but they did exist. The Federation might have something similar.

[General Zod]

It should also be noted that in the DDR (German Democratic Republic), despite having a communist regime, private entrepeneurs/businessmen did exist. They were taxed heavily, but they did exist. The Federation might have something similar.

the biggest deal with communist and free business was, iirc, they were against individuals running a business or owning properties, however they had no qualms if a group of individuals ran a business or owned a property. then it's no longer private ownership. Admittedly, in the federation this may or may not be different. since it's doubtful the federation follows Marxist communism, even though they clearly follow a certain type of communism.

[Rihannsu Science Officer]

Actually, it does not. If he's not a Federation citizen, then laws against private ownership rights don't apply to him, do they? By your logic, that Quark has a shop on a Federation run station and that he sells to Federation people, that proves that the Federation isn't communist.

Jesus H. Christ on a Pogo Stick. When in a country's borders, you are subject to its laws, whether you're a citizen or not. Ask that American who was caned in Singapore 10 years ago. As for Deep Space Nine, it is in Bajoran space, not Federation.

It should also be noted that in the DDR (German Democratic Republic), despite having a communist regime, private entrepeneurs/businessmen did exist. They were taxed heavily, but they did exist. The Federation might have something similar.

Then it wasn't Communist, it was socialist. Socialism has a negative connotation, but is not nearly as bad as Communism. Canada is socialist. France is socialist. Most of Europe is socialist. People run businesses there all the time. Taxes are sky-high, but poverty isn't as great there and there aren't too many super rich people there.

Relax, the ship is definitely NOT capital. Apparently he bought the ship for charity purpose, *because* he used the ship for selling wares and generating income. Duh.

Sounds like Captain Obvious to me.

I'm going to assume you were being sarcastic here. Of COURSE he bought it for selling wares and generating income, that's WHY the UFP is not Communist, it's socialist.

He owns a freaking SHIP, for Christ's sake. He uses this ship to travel the galaxy selling his wares and presumably generating income. Sounds like capital to me. And if he is NOT a citizen, he would have had to immigrate.

No he wouldn't have. Businessmen and merchants do not need to be citizens in order to trade within a communist country.

Maybe I used the wrong term, I couldn't think of the correct one. He would have had to go through all kinds of legal maneuverings to get a trade permit in the Federation if trade there were as restricted as it would be in a Communist state. Not seek citizenship, but getting permission to trade in a communist state can't be easy and profits are just as easily made in other societies. Why do you think no American companies are investing in China? Could it be because it's more profitable to invest in capitalist countries that aren't so poor?

[Stravo]

Why do you think no American companies are investing in China? Could it be because it's more profitable to invest in capitalist countries that aren't so poor?

Oh my God, you have NO CLUE what you're talking about. American companies ARE investing big time in China. Why do you think we have a massive trade defecit with them moron.

[fgalkin]

Actually, it does not. If he's not a Federation citizen, then laws against private ownership rights don't apply to him, do they? By your logic, that Quark has a shop on a Federation run station and that he sells to Federation people, that proves that the Federation isn't communist.

Jesus H. Christ on a Pogo Stick. When in a country's borders, you are subject to its laws, whether you're a citizen or not. Ask that American who was caned in Singapore 10 years ago. As for Deep Space Nine, it is in Bajoran space, not Federation.

It should also be noted that in the DDR (German Democratic Republic), despite having a communist regime, private entrepeneurs/businessmen did exist. They were taxed heavily, but they did exist. The Federation might have something similar.

Then it wasn't Communist, it was socialist. Socialism has a negative connotation, but is not nearly as bad as Communism. Canada is socialist. France is socialist. Most of Europe is socialist. People run businesses there all the time. Taxes are sky-high, but poverty isn't as great there and there aren't too many super rich people there.

You should have told that to the Communist officials in power. I'm sure they would have had a good laugh about it.l

Relax, the ship is definitely NOT capital. Apparently he bought the ship for charity purpose, *because* he used the ship for selling wares and generating income. Duh.

Sounds like Captain Obvious to me.

I'm going to assume you were being sarcastic here. Of COURSE he bought it for selling wares and generating income, that's WHY the UFP is not Communist, it's socialist.

He owns a freaking SHIP, for Christ's sake. He uses this ship to travel the galaxy selling his wares and presumably generating income. Sounds like capital to me. And if he is NOT a citizen, he would have had to immigrate.

No he wouldn't have. Businessmen and merchants do not need to be citizens in order to trade within a communist country.

Maybe I used the wrong term, I couldn't think of the correct one. He would have had to go through all kinds of legal maneuverings to get a trade permit in the Federation if trade there were as restricted as it would be in a Communist state. Not seek citizenship, but getting permission to trade in a communist state can't be easy and profits are just as easily made in other societies. Why do you think no American companies are investing in China? Could it be because it's more profitable to invest in capitalist countries that aren't so poor?

No American countries are investing in China? Are you insane, on drugs, or both? Take a look at anything made by a US company. Look at the tag. See the "made in China" bit? Ever wonder how that happened?

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin