[Barton]The Federation is NOT Communist.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2004-09-19 07:44pm

Rihannsu Science Officer wrote:Jesus H. Christ on a Pogo Stick. When in a country's borders, you are subject to its laws, whether you're a citizen or not. Ask that American who was caned in Singapore 10 years ago. As for Deep Space Nine, it is in Bajoran space, not Federation.

Do you know anything about global commerce whatsoever?

Then it wasn't Communist, it was socialist. Socialism has a negative connotation, but is not nearly as bad as Communism. Canada is socialist. France is socialist. Most of Europe is socialist. People run businesses there all the time. Taxes are sky-high, but poverty isn't as great there and there aren't too many super rich people there.

Do you know anything about governmental structures whatsoever?

I'm going to assume you were being sarcastic here. Of COURSE he bought it for selling wares and generating income, that's WHY the UFP is not Communist, it's socialist.

How does that prove anything? He's probably not even a Federation citizen.

Ossus wrote:Maybe I used the wrong term, I couldn't think of the correct one. He would have had to go through all kinds of legal maneuverings to get a trade permit in the Federation if trade there were as restricted as it would be in a Communist state.

What are you talking about? How are legislative difficulties in acquiring trade permits a necessary aspect of communism?

Not seek citizenship, but getting permission to trade in a communist state can't be easy and profits are just as easily made in other societies.

Why?

Why do you think no American companies are investing in China? Could it be because it's more profitable to invest in capitalist countries that aren't so poor?

Given that LOTS of American companies are massively investing in China, right now, your point is moot.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2004-09-19 07:46pm

fgalkin wrote:No American countries are investing in China? Are you insane, on drugs, or both? Take a look at anything made by a US company. Look at the tag. See the "made in China" bit? Ever wonder how that happened?

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

There are no American companies in China, and no American troops in Baghdad. Any claims that there are are premature, or part of massive governmental propoganda on the part of the Americans in an effort to discredit America's enemies.

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2004-09-19 07:50pm

CDiehl wrote:If this is a capitalist society, why do we see no advertising, nor any brand names or logos anywhere? Why would capitalist society get rid of such things? Why does Starfleet have nothing at all with a company symbol on it?

As for the idea of sending 2000 men to Vulcan to secure it, there are plenty of good arguments I can give against that, but it's a side issue, so I'll make it short. If 2000 men is all you need to knock over a planet, why did the US military waste so many men invading Afghanistan and Iraq? If so few men are needed, we could conquer the world with what forces we have now, and probably have troops to spare; just send 2000 men per country and we're golden. If you can explain why that is a silly idea, you can understand how 2000 people can't conquer a much bigger target.

Actually, Quark wanted to advertise on some unused space on the Promenade, since no one was doing it on DS9, and Sisko refused to allow him to do it on a Federation station.

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2004-09-19 07:57pm

I think this guy doesn't know the difference between Economy and Government. (BTW I wrote a long, nice reply to each of his points before you guys but lost it in a Windows crash...@!$# Microsoft!)

See, countries like the USSR had a Communist economy and a totalarian government. That's not a necessity. While it hasn't happened in this world, it WOULD be technically possible to have a communist economy with a democratic government, as the Federation seems to have.

This democratic government might decide to honor customs of other people, as it appears the Federation seems to do, which would explain why they allow people to use currencies of others (Ferengi, for one) to barter with them.

One thing to think of- how come there are no corporations? No news services? Not even COURTS? EVERYTHING is run by starfleet. StarFleet News Service. The prisons for normal criminals are run by Starfleet. Even the JUDGES are Admirals! EVERYTHING is run by the government.

This fits much better with a communist economy than capitalist.

Sharpshooter · Post by **Sharpshooter** » 2004-09-19 08:33pm

Way I see it, the UFD can't be Communist: while it has all the makings of a Communist state, it lacks one of the most notable elements of the system.

If my lessons served me right, a Communist state can only be created with the use of a violent revolution to topple the powers that hold the proletariat in a state of eternal oppression. And violence, as everybody in the Federation knows, is wrong. Therefore, the UFD gets off the hook on a technicality.

Everything else down the line, though, smells of Socialism and its various forms and offspring.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2004-09-19 08:36pm

Sharpshooter wrote:Way I see it, the UFD can't be Communist: while it has all the makings of a Communist state, it lacks one of the most notable elements of the system.

If my lessons served me right, a Communist state can only be created with the use of a violent revolution to topple the powers that hold the proletariat in a state of eternal oppression. And violence, as everybody in the Federation knows, is wrong. Therefore, the UFD gets off the hook on a technicality.

Erm... a violent revolution? Like WWIII or the Eugenics conflict, or potentially even something a little later?

Everything else down the line, though, smells of Socialism and its various forms and offspring.

True, but it shouldn't get off on a technicality that it doesn't have.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2004-09-19 08:56pm

Master of Ossus wrote:Erm... a violent revolution? Like WWIII or the Eugenics conflict, or potentially even something a little later?

My personal theory is that the Revolution took place in between ST6 and the first season of TNG. If the Tomed Incident hadn't been explained by the Lost Era books I would have used that as a possible temporal 'landmark', so to speak.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2004-09-19 08:56pm

Praxis wrote: how come there are no corporations?

We have one reference to a mining corporation that operated in federation space.

StarFleet News Service.

Federation news service (although Jake once referred to a Starfleet news service it is most often referred to as the Federation news service).
Although it makes little difference, you are correct in that the last indication of independent news reporters was the launch of the Enterprise B.

Even the JUDGES are Admirals!

Are you sure?

Admiral Satie's father was Judge Aaron Satie, not Admiral Aaron Satie or Captain Satie.

The prisons for normal criminals are run by Starfleet.

Is that said somewhere, Caretaker maybe?

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2004-09-19 09:17pm

Rihannsu Science Officer wrote:Jesus H. Christ on a Pogo Stick. When in a country's borders, you are subject to its laws, whether you're a citizen or not. Ask that American who was caned in Singapore 10 years ago. As for Deep Space Nine, it is in Bajoran space, not Federation.

Alright, cockmunch, here's what you are going to do. You are going to go to a library and school yourself on global commerce. Do you think that when Nixon opened trade relations with China, China stopped being a communist nation? Do you think that the vast amounts of foodstuffs sold to the Soviet Union by the the United States made it any less communist? Or the wide varieties of nations that trade with Cuba make Castro's little banana republic not communist?

Somehow, you think the existance of one non-Federation trading ship in the Federation makes it not a communist state, and manage to gloss over episodes like TNG "The Neutral Zone" that was full of anti-capitalist bullplop or StarTrek: First Contact where Picard gives his little speech about how people aren't paid in the 24th century but work for the "good of humanity", thus the Enterprise didn't "cost anything"*. Or that they've slipped so far that they don't even use fiat currency anymore. The only currency that has ever been shown to be worth a damn is gold pressed latnium, meaning that they've gone back to directly trading with precious minerals as money for transactions.

*By the way, you can tell that modern economics is an unknown concept in the future because even an educated man like Picard has the childish notion that things don't cost anything to create without money.

Mark S · Post by **Mark S** » 2004-09-19 09:18pm

Actually China is a really good analogy against the OP argument. It is a communist state and is currently buying up shitloads of steel from everywhere it can. The price of steel here has skyrocketed because of it.

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2004-09-19 09:23pm

Sharpshooter wrote:Way I see it, the UFD can't be Communist: while it has all the makings of a Communist state, it lacks one of the most notable elements of the system.

If my lessons served me right, a Communist state can only be created with the use of a violent revolution to topple the powers that hold the proletariat in a state of eternal oppression. And violence, as everybody in the Federation knows, is wrong. Therefore, the UFD gets off the hook on a technicality.

Everything else down the line, though, smells of Socialism and its various forms and offspring.

Actually, we don't know that. It doesn't have to be a violent revolution... that's just how Karl Marx thought it would inevitably happen. Remember, after the Vulcans landed, according to the bilge that Deanna Troi was going on about, war, poverty, disease and all of that "disappeared" and humanity was all peaceful and united. We know full we'll from Enterprise that the Vulcans are shifty motherfuckers, do you think that it's coincidence that the Vulcans encountered humanity and 50 years later humanity has dramatically changed, even changes that are contradictory to human nature, to a form that is no threat to Vulcan? It may of taken till TNG to complete it's cycle, but dimes to donuts is that the Vulcans were fucking with us with a bit of social engineering, leading to a "utopia" that suited them fine.

Mark S · Post by **Mark S** » 2004-09-19 09:28pm

Gil Hamilton wrote:Actually, we don't know that. It doesn't have to be a violent revolution... that's just how Karl Marx thought it would inevitably happen. Remember, after the Vulcans landed, according to the bilge that Deanna Troi was going on about, war, poverty, disease and all of that "disappeared" and humanity was all peaceful and united. We know full we'll from Enterprise that the Vulcans are shifty motherfuckers, do you think that it's coincidence that the Vulcans encountered humanity and 50 years later humanity has dramatically changed, even changes that are contradictory to human nature, to a form that is no threat to Vulcan? It may of taken till TNG to complete it's cycle, but dimes to donuts is that the Vulcans were fucking with us with a bit of social engineering, leading to a "utopia" that suited them fine.

That's an interesting theory. Hmmmm. If it were true, I wonder what the Feds would do if they found out.

NRS Guardian · Post by **NRS Guardian** » 2004-09-19 11:06pm

FYI there are four basic economic systems that have been in use during the 20th century.

The first is Capitalism or the market system which is used by most of the world today because of its obvious advantages. And is marked by private ownwership of property and the use of prices to guide the economy and determine what gets produced and for whom.

Next, is Socialism, which is the economic system of Communism, is marked by government ownership of property and the use of economic plans to guide the economy. Only the PRK and Cuba still practice anything resembling pure communism.

Third, is Fascism which is even worse than Socialism. Fascism is marked by private ownership, with an economic plan guiding the economy.

Finally, there's Market Socialism used by Yugoslavia and Hungary for a short while in the interim between Socialism and Capitalism. Marked by government ownership of property and prices as the guiding factor of the economy.

I leave up to you to judge where the Federation lies though IMO the Federation is Communist/Socialist.

p.s. these are just the basic systems differentiated by the most basic factors and of course don't take into account exceptions and in-between situations, but virtually any economy fits into one of the four categories.

Wired_Grenadier · Post by **Wired_Grenadier** » 2004-09-20 06:16am

This thread is great comedy.

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2004-09-20 10:34am

Sharpshooter wrote:Way I see it, the UFD can't be Communist: while it has all the makings of a Communist state, it lacks one of the most notable elements of the system.

If my lessons served me right, a Communist state can only be created with the use of a violent revolution to topple the powers that hold the proletariat in a state of eternal oppression. And violence, as everybody in the Federation knows, is wrong. Therefore, the UFD gets off the hook on a technicality.

Everything else down the line, though, smells of Socialism and its various forms and offspring.

since when is a violent revolution the only way to create a communist nation? if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it must be a duck. It'd be like saying that just because a duck was created in a science lab rather than the old fashioned way, it's not really a duck.

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2004-09-20 11:52am

TheDarkling wrote:
Praxis wrote: how come there are no corporations?
We have one reference to a mining corporation that operated in federation space.

What reference? If you mean in DS9, that was very likely run by a non federation civilian, since she was looking for a partner on Deep Space Nine instead of Federation space.

Even the JUDGES are Admirals!

Are you sure?

Admiral Satie's father was Judge Aaron Satie, not Admiral Aaron Satie or Captain Satie.

Whenever we've seen anyone put on trial, they've always been tried by an Admiral. Including Doctor Bashir's parents. And that Admiral ran the prison, if I recall correctly.

Besides, Admiral Satie's father may have been a judge BEFORE the Federation went communist, because Admiral Satie also acted as a judge or prosecuter (or they brought another admiral in to be judge, I half-recall the episode). But Picard was tried by a Federation Admiral as a judge. Additionally, Bashir's parents were sentenced by a Starfleet Admiral.

The prisons for normal criminals are run by Starfleet.
Is that said somewhere, Caretaker maybe?

Caretaker, I *think* (Read the novellization but didn't see the episode), and the episode where bashir's parents were arrested in DS9.

Sharpshooter · Post by **Sharpshooter** » 2004-09-20 12:32pm

Darth_Zod wrote:
Sharpshooter wrote:Way I see it, the UFD can't be Communist: while it has all the makings of a Communist state, it lacks one of the most notable elements of the system.

If my lessons served me right, a Communist state can only be created with the use of a violent revolution to topple the powers that hold the proletariat in a state of eternal oppression. And violence, as everybody in the Federation knows, is wrong. Therefore, the UFD gets off the hook on a technicality.

Everything else down the line, though, smells of Socialism and its various forms and offspring.
since when is a violent revolution the only way to create a communist nation? if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it must be a duck. It'd be like saying that just because a duck was created in a science lab rather than the old fashioned way, it's not really a duck.

...I suck at humor - the feedback only gives testimony...

Of course the Federation is Communist - they're just Communists without guns...an' stuff...

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2004-09-20 01:49pm

Praxis wrote:What reference? If you mean in DS9, that was very likely run by a non federation civilian, since she was looking for a partner on Deep Space Nine instead of Federation space.

Well, Ezri's (as in the human half of the Ezri Dax symbiote) family owned a mine, but they weren't Federation and it was largely under the umbrella of organized crime (the Orion Syndicate, I believe).

Post by **Kuja** » 2004-09-20 02:51pm

Sharpshooter wrote:...I suck at humor - the feedback only gives testimony...

Try using one of these next time.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2004-09-20 02:53pm

Praxis wrote: What reference? If you mean in DS9, that was very likely run by a non federation civilian, since she was looking for a partner on Deep Space Nine instead of Federation space.

From Conspiracy in TNG, there are a series of planets which are mined for the Federation by the Dytallix Mining Company.

Whenever we've seen anyone put on trial, they've always been tried by an Admiral. Including Doctor Bashir's parents. And that Admiral ran the prison, if I recall correctly.

Doctor Bashir's parents weren't on trial, Bashir's dad agreed to go to prison if his son was allowed to stay in Starfleet, obviously that involves Starfleet so it is no surprise they had to be part of the deal.

Besides, Admiral Satie's father may have been a judge BEFORE the Federation went communist, because Admiral Satie also acted as a judge or prosecuter (or they brought another admiral in to be judge, I half-recall the episode). But Picard was tried by a Federation Admiral as a judge.

Admiral Satie was brought in to head up the investigation, there were no trials just interviews/hearings (which later became public).

With that said it is no surprise an Admiral was involved, Starfleet is the military (or close enough for this discussion) and so a military trial would be the way to go.

When exactly do you believe the federation went Communist?

Troi tells us poverty goes in the early to mid 22nd century and Paris tells the new world economy took shape in the 22nd century (which put Fort Knox out of business).

The indications we have point to the "revolution" being around the time of Enterprise which means that everything we see in TOS applies to what we see in TNG (although that conflicts with the conclusion people try to draw from TNG).

Additionally, Bashir's parents were sentenced by a Starfleet Admiral.

The admiral cut a deal with Bashirs father, we never saw sentencing or a trial.

Caretaker, I *think* (Read the novellization but didn't see the episode),

I just watched the scene, it is called a Federation Penal settlement and there are no Starfleet uniforms in sight so I don't think we conclude it was Starfleet run.

and the episode where bashir's parents were arrested in DS9.

Bashir's parents contacted JAG and asked that Starfleet not pursue charges against Bashir, in exchange his father would plead guilty.

Bashir's father was asked to go see the Admiral when he got back to earth, at no point was he under arrest.

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2004-09-20 08:02pm

TheDarkling wrote:
Praxis wrote: What reference? If you mean in DS9, that was very likely run by a non federation civilian, since she was looking for a partner on Deep Space Nine instead of Federation space.
From Conspiracy in TNG, there are a series of planets which are mined for the Federation by the Dytallix Mining Company.

Never mind them, I don't remembe that part.

Whenever we've seen anyone put on trial, they've always been tried by an Admiral. Including Doctor Bashir's parents. And that Admiral ran the prison, if I recall correctly.
Doctor Bashir's parents weren't on trial, Bashir's dad agreed to go to prison if his son was allowed to stay in Starfleet, obviously that involves Starfleet so it is no surprise they had to be part of the deal.

Correct, but additionally, Starfleet was allowed to arrange his prison sentence, which means they obviously have control over that.

Additionally, Bashir's parents were sentenced by a Starfleet Admiral.
The admiral cut a deal with Bashirs father, we never saw sentencing or a trial.

Yes, we did. The Admiral agreed to sentence him to two years in prison.

Caretaker, I *think* (Read the novellization but didn't see the episode),
I just watched the scene, it is called a Federation Penal settlement and there are no Starfleet uniforms in sight so I don't think we conclude it was Starfleet run.

Hm, must have been one of those 'additions' in the books.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2004-09-21 08:24am

Praxis wrote: Correct, but additionally, Starfleet was allowed to arrange his prison sentence, which means they obviously have control over that.

Not necessarily, he could have contacted whoever is in charge of those matters and secured the deal.
I imagine he had to contact Starfleet medical to make sure they were happy with having a freak practicing medicine.

Yes, we did. The Admiral agreed to sentence him to two years in prison.

That could have been the maximum for the offence he was going to be tried for (Bashir seemed to think it harsh) or it may have been part of the deal, cutting a deal does not equal trial or sentencing.

Patrick Degan · Post by **Patrick Degan** » 2004-09-21 09:53am

Gil Hamilton wrote:
Rihannsu Science Officer wrote:Jesus H. Christ on a Pogo Stick. When in a country's borders, you are subject to its laws, whether you're a citizen or not. Ask that American who was caned in Singapore 10 years ago. As for Deep Space Nine, it is in Bajoran space, not Federation.
Alright, cockmunch, here's what you are going to do. You are going to go to a library and school yourself on global commerce. Do you think that when Nixon opened trade relations with China, China stopped being a communist nation? Do you think that the vast amounts of foodstuffs sold to the Soviet Union by the the United States made it any less communist? Or the wide varieties of nations that trade with Cuba make Castro's little banana republic not communist?

Somehow, you think the existance of one non-Federation trading ship in the Federation makes it not a communist state, and manage to gloss over episodes like TNG "The Neutral Zone" that was full of anti-capitalist bullplop or StarTrek: First Contact where Picard gives his little speech about how people aren't paid in the 24th century but work for the "good of humanity", thus the Enterprise didn't "cost anything"*. Or that they've slipped so far that they don't even use fiat currency anymore. The only currency that has ever been shown to be worth a damn is gold pressed latnium, meaning that they've gone back to directly trading with precious minerals as money for transactions.

*By the way, you can tell that modern economics is an unknown concept in the future because even an educated man like Picard has the childish notion that things don't cost anything to create without money.

Or that he is thoroughly confused by such a basic concept as investment banking in "The Neutral Zone".

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2004-09-21 12:41pm

Patrick Degan wrote:Or that he is thoroughly confused by such a basic concept as investment banking in "The Neutral Zone".

That's the thing. Picard is a man of as liberal education (in the classical meaning of the word) as you can get in those shows, but his understanding of economics is downright ignorant.

For instance, pay attention in "First Contact". Lily crosses the bridge with Picard and she's wide eyed at the scale of the Enterprise, and comments that it took her months to merely scavenge the titanium for the Phoenix and asked just how much the Enterprise cost to build. That's a valid economic comment and question. She's asking about the sheer resources that must have gone into the Enterprise. Picard hears her question and some how in his head he processes this as "How much did the Federation pay people to build this?" and goes on a spiel about how people don't work for money anymore and thus they didn't pay anything for the Enterprise being built. This is a real child-like statement. Even if no money changes hands, the thing is still going to cost something. Picard doesn't understand the "TINSTAAFLS" economic principle, which states "There is no such thing as a free lunch, stupid." You've still got to consume resources like energy, raw materials, industrial processes, support for the workers, et cetera in order to build anything, and the Enterprise represents the collected effort and resources of a small civilization in StarTrek. Yet Picard can't wrap his brain around this. The very concept of economics in the Federation must be very nearly unknown by most of the population.

Butterbean569 · Post by **Butterbean569** » 2004-09-21 01:36pm

It's such a stupid thing for Picard to say, you have to think that he said that on *purpose*.....

More than likely, he was saying this to impress her and show that "in the future there is no money". We know Picard isn't a retard who has no concept at *all* of cost, so this is the best explanation IMO