[Barton]The Federation is NOT Communist.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2004-09-21 02:07pm

Patrick Degan wrote: Or that he is thoroughly confused by such a basic concept as investment banking in "The Neutral Zone".

When was he?

I ask because claims about "The Neutral Zone" are massively overblown.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2004-09-21 02:23pm

Gil Hamilton wrote: The very concept of economics in the Federation must be very nearly unknown by most of the population.

She asked Picard how much it cost, if the Federation has non currency based economics (according to Nog at least) then how can he quantify cost?

It cost x amount of man hours in a mine somewhere, x amount in transporting it, x amount in the ship yards, x amount in some other mine mining fuel for a reactor which powered the refining of component Y which required x amount of man hours and so on....

Picard can't tell Lilly how much it cost because he doesn't know because it can't be summed up in an easy single figure if they aren’t using a currency ( I suppose one could say it cost “0.75% of total Federation man hours” or something but I doubt those sorts of figures are computed or that people judge things by them).

That is what leads him into his spiel about no money although if he had said it cost 7000 FedCreds it wouldn’t have meant anything to her anyway so the question was somewhat stupid given they have no common frame of reference.

Batman · Post by **Batman** » 2004-09-21 02:36pm

TheDarkling wrote: That is what leads him into his spiel about no money although if he had said it cost 7000 FedCreds it wouldn’t have meant anything to her anyway so the question was somewhat stupid given they have no common frame of reference.

How can that question be stupid when she couldn't know they didn't have a common frame of reference?
And you just did give a valid answer to the question. It doesn't have to be a single figure, saying 'it took x manhours to build it, y amount of material z' and so on is a perfectly valid way of answering the question.
Especially given Lily's comment about the titanium which could very well mean she's interested in where they got the resources.

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2004-09-21 02:42pm

TheDarkling wrote:She asked Picard how much it cost, if the Federation has non currency based economics (according to Nog at least) then how can he quantify cost?

It cost x amount of man hours in a mine somewhere, x amount in transporting it, x amount in the ship yards, x amount in some other mine mining fuel for a reactor which powered the refining of component Y which required x amount of man hours and so on....

Picard can't tell Lilly how much it cost because he doesn't know because it can't be summed up in an easy single figure if they aren’t using a currency ( I suppose one could say it cost “0.75% of total Federation man hours” or something but I doubt those sorts of figures are computed or that people judge things by them).

That is what leads him into his spiel about no money although if he had said it cost 7000 FedCreds it wouldn’t have meant anything to her anyway so the question was somewhat stupid given they have no common frame of reference.

Wait... if they have FedCreds, then they do have currency. Whether you call it a credit, a buck, or poker chip, it's still money. He still could have told her something about the resources that went into building the ship, since that was what her question was about.

But he didn't just give her a BS answer because he realized she had no frame of reference, he gave her a BS answer because her question totally went over his shiny head. His spiel, if you had paid attention, was that the Enterprise didn't cost anything because everyone who made it worked for the "betterment of humanity". Want me to pop in First Contact and write down the dialogue of that conversation for you, because it's all right there.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2004-09-21 02:53pm

Batman wrote: How can that question be stupid when she couldn't know they didn't have a common frame of reference?

Because it would egocentric (even for an American) to think that that an inter galactic Federation of 150 species would be using Dollars 300 years in the future and even if they were inflation would render comparison rather useless.

And you just did give a valid answer to the question. It doesn't have to be a single figure, saying 'it took x manhours to build it, y amount of material z' and so on is a perfectly valid way of answering the question.

How many man hours went into manufacturing your computer’s components, how much went into gathering the material and refining it, how much into shipping it and so on...

An end user is not going to know that information about the product, most end users have no idea about the actual cost (to say nothing of man hours) to manufacture and transport the item, just the sticker price.

To expect Picard to give an answer in man hours and resources used is silly.

Especially given Lily's comment about the titanium which could very well mean she's interested in where they got the resources.

She doesn’t even know what it was made of, if she wanted to know how big of an investment it was for the Federation then she should have asked “Is this big for a Ship, or do you have many of these” but that still wouldn’t elicit much useful information unless Picard was willing to sit down and flesh out his answer in the middle of a fight for his ship.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2004-09-21 03:15pm

Gil Hamilton wrote: Wait... if they have FedCreds, then they do have currency.

I was pointing out that even if then did have a currency the answer wouldn't mean anything to her.

Whether you call it a credit, a buck, or poker chip, it's still money. He still could have told her something about the resources that went into building the ship, since that was what her question was about.

Like what?
He hardly know exactly what went into building the ship or what sort of man hours were required.

How would saying "it took 1000 tons of processed technobabblide to make the main computer" mean anything to Lilly?

He gave a short uncomplicated answer which is understandable (to me at least) considering his ship had been boarded by the Borg and he was on the look out for them.

He could have said it took the shipyard x months to make the ship sure (although that would have been how long the ship took not how much it cost), but I think that not giving that answer is perfectly acceptable given the situation and the question being specifically about "cost" in a monetary context.

But he didn't just give her a BS answer because he realized she had no frame of reference, he gave her a BS answer because her question totally went over his shiny head.

What leads you to that conclusion?

His spiel, if you had paid attention,

Oh I did, in fact I watched the scene in question before posting.

was that the Enterprise didn't cost anything because everyone who made it worked for the "betterment of humanity".

No, perhaps you should have paid more attention.

Lily asks how much it cost.
Picard says the economics of the future are somewhat different and that money no longer exists in the 24th century (whether he means on earth or in the Federation is unclear, his statement is certainly erroneous because it does exist several other AQ powers).
Lilly says "No money? You mean you don't get paid"
Picard talks about the acquisition of wealth no longer being the driving force of humanity (which isn't actually "no we don't get paid") and people working for the betterment of mankind.

His talk about the betterment of mankind is an expansion upon his point that greed no longer exists, he then makes a direct comparison to Lilly and Cochrane who most certainly do get paid.

He never says that the Enterprise was free because its workers were working for free for self satisfaction which is what you are interpretation it as.

Want me to pop in First Contact and write down the dialogue of that conversation for you, because it's all right there.

So have I but maybe you should familiarise yourself with it for your own sake.

Batman · Post by **Batman** » 2004-09-21 03:33pm

TheDarkling wrote:
Batman wrote: How can that question be stupid when she couldn't know they didn't have a common frame of reference?
Because it would egocentric (even for an American) to think that that an inter galactic Federation of 150 species would be using Dollars 300 years in the future and even if they were inflation would render comparison rather useless.

Expecting them to use dollars is egocentric. Expecting them to use currency is not. Her next question would indubitably have been 'So-is that a lot?' after getting a number but the question is valid.

And you just did give a valid answer to the question. It doesn't have to be a single figure, saying 'it took x manhours to build it, y amount of material z' and so on is a perfectly valid way of answering the question.
How many man hours went into manufacturing your computer’s components, how much went into gathering the material and refining it, how much into shipping it and so on...

The goddamn Federation flagship is not exactly a consumer item.

An end user is not going to know that information about the product, most end users have no idea about the actual cost (to say nothing of man hours) to manufacture and transport the item, just the sticker price.

A guy serving about what is arguably a warship is not exactly an 'end user' the way we are WRT computers.

To expect Picard to give an answer in man hours and resources used is silly.

I don't see why. Even if it's just middlin vague information along the lines of 'she masses 6 million tons, and it took 20,000 people five years to build her' (those figures are completely arbitrary of course) that would have been something (and for a warship finding such out is usually trivial, especially for it's captain).
Hell, even if he didn't freaking KNOW, going 'Sorry, I just work here, BUT if you're asking about money' and then going into his spiel would have been better.

Especially given Lily's comment about the titanium which could very well mean she's interested in where they got the resources.
She doesn’t even know what it was made of, if she wanted to know how big of an investment it was for the Federation then she should have asked “Is this big for a Ship, or do you have many of these”

And given a few hours to clam down, she might very well have done.
Lily wasn't exactly calm and collected in that sequence (not that I blame her, given the circumstances).

but that still wouldn’t elicit much useful information unless Picard was willing to sit down and flesh out his answer in the middle of a fight for his ship.

Why not? You expect Lily to flesh out her question in the same situation.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2004-09-21 03:42pm

Batman wrote: Expecting them to use dollars is egocentric. Expecting them to use currency is not. Her next question would indubitably have been 'So-is that a lot?' after getting a number but the question is valid.

So why not cut to the chase and ask "did this ship cost a lot?" which is also a question of dubious value.

A guy serving about what is arguably a warship is not exactly an 'end user' the way we are WRT computers.

If you can show me that every captain in the US naval has the same detailed knowledge then you might have a point, if not then my point stands.

I don't see why. Even if it's just middlin vague information along the lines of 'she masses 6 million tons, and it took 20,000 people five years to build her' (those figures are completely arbitrary of course) that would have been something (and for a warship finding such out is usually trivial, especially for it's captain).

That would be how long did it take? and how many people did it take?

She clearly meant cost in monetary context and Picard responded as such.

Hell, even if he didn't freaking KNOW, going 'Sorry, I just work here, BUT if you're asking about money' and then going into his spiel would have been better.

He assumed she was talking about money, which she was.

And given a few hours to clam down, she might very well have done.
Lily wasn't exactly calm and collected in that sequence (not that I blame her, given the circumstances).

She was more clam than Picard I dare say.

Why not? You expect Lily to flesh out her question in the same situation.

I don' expect her to, I simply pointed out the question was stupid, which it was.
I dare say we have all asked stupid question especially when presented with such circumstances (or if we ever were I should say).

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2004-09-21 06:22pm

TheDarkling wrote:I was pointing out that even if then did have a currency the answer wouldn't mean anything to her.

Why wouldn't she understand it? She grew up in the 21th century in America, she's going to understand all about electronic currency and credit.

Like what?
He hardly know exactly what went into building the ship or what sort of man hours were required.

How would saying "it took 1000 tons of processed technobabblide to make the main computer" mean anything to Lilly?

He gave a short uncomplicated answer which is understandable (to me at least) considering his ship had been boarded by the Borg and he was on the look out for them.

He could have said it took the shipyard x months to make the ship sure (although that would have been how long the ship took not how much it cost), but I think that not giving that answer is perfectly acceptable given the situation and the question being specifically about "cost" in a monetary context.

You missed the point. She asked about it's cost and came back with "money doesn't exist in the 24th century". If he'd have caught her meaning, he wouldn't have said that, because he'd know full well that the "cost" there, in context, doesn't refer to money, but to resources. Knowing a bit about economics, he'd have known that things do cost something, even without currency, and given some sort of rough guessimation. A patronizing smile and going "well, we don't really use money anymore" when she's talking about resources shows that he doesn't really understand was Lily was saying.

What leads you to that conclusion?

Her asking about resources and him answering with a nonsensical answer about money not existing anymore.

Oh I did, in fact I watched the scene in question before posting.

OK, then pay careful attention to it next time.

No, perhaps you should have paid more attention.

Lily asks how much it cost.
Picard says the economics of the future are somewhat different and that money no longer exists in the 24th century (whether he means on earth or in the Federation is unclear, his statement is certainly erroneous because it does exist several other AQ powers).
Lilly says "No money? You mean you don't get paid"
Picard talks about the acquisition of wealth no longer being the driving force of humanity (which isn't actually "no we don't get paid") and people working for the betterment of mankind.

His talk about the betterment of mankind is an expansion upon his point that greed no longer exists, he then makes a direct comparison to Lilly and Cochrane who most certainly do get paid.

He never says that the Enterprise was free because its workers were working for free for self satisfaction which is what you are interpretation it as.

What you're failing to do is notice that there are two different things being said there by Picard. Lily asks about how much the Enterprise cost leading to... Idea #1 "Money doesn't exist anymore" (Lily makes a tangent and Picard answers with...) Idea #2 "Humans now work for the betterment of humanity, not material gain". Now tie the two ideas together, bozo. In Picard's mind, the Enterprise didn't cost anything because currency didn't change hands.

So have I but maybe you should familiarise yourself with it for your own sake.

Hah hah. Watch it again with your brain turned on.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2004-09-21 07:10pm

Gil Hamilton wrote: Why wouldn't she understand it? She grew up in the 21th century in America, she's going to understand all about electronic currency and credit.

She doesn't know the unit, if I said item X cost 300 Reds does that mean anything to you?

No not unless you know what the value (in terms you would understand) of the unit “red” is.

I am not saying she wouldn't understand the concept of electronic currency, she wouldn't understand its worth without a frame of reference so the information is of no use to her.

You missed the point. She asked about it's cost and came back with "money doesn't exist in the 24th century". If he'd have caught her meaning, he wouldn't have said that, because he'd know full well that the "cost" there, in context, doesn't refer to money, but to resources.

No it doesn't, she asked for the "cost" and he told her the federation no longer uses money.

Sure it cost so many man hours but I doubt Picard knows neither how many man hours it cost nor how many tons of alloy X went into building the ship.

He essentially told her he couldn’t give her a $ value which is what she was clearly looking for.

Knowing a bit about economics, he'd have known that things do cost something, even without currency, and given some sort of rough guessimation. A patronizing smile and going "well, we don't really use money anymore" when she's talking about resources shows that he doesn't really understand was Lily was saying.

You don't need o know about economics to know everything costs something, do you honestly think Picard believes the ship sprung up out of thin air?

She clearly meant monetary cost and Picard informed her that the Federation (or earth) doesn't evaluate things in such a manner.

Her asking about resources and him answering with a nonsensical answer about money not existing anymore.

Ah I see, so your view on what the question was and imposing that view on Picard (when it clearly doesn't fit) is what led you to that conclusion.

She didn't ask him went when into building it but the cost, in what was clearly a monetary context, she didn't say "how much went into building this?" or "how long did it take?" or "what sort of resources were involved in building this?" she asked him what it "cost" in what was obviously a monetary context.

If I go down to the local shop and ask them the cost of a packet of crisps would they show their obvious lack of understanding of economics by telling me "30p", instead of informing me how many man hours and what resources went into it? No they would be answering my question.

Picard answered Lilly by telling her he couldn't give it a monetary value, he did not say it was free just that he couldn't give her a monetary figure.

OK, then pay careful attention to it next time.

Maybe if I approached it with my conclusion already reached it would help, that method seems to have worked for you.

What you're failing to do is notice that there are two different things being said there by Picard. Lily asks about how much the Enterprise cost leading to... Idea #1 "Money doesn't exist anymore" (Lily makes a tangent and Picard answers with...) Idea #2 "Humans now work for the betterment of humanity, not material gain". Now tie the two ideas together, bozo. In Picard's mind, the Enterprise didn't cost anything because currency didn't change hands.

He doesn't say that though, this is where you are going wrong.
You are concluding what Picard thinks from making a link between two statements, a link we have no evidence he makes.

Lilly ask what it cost to which Picard responds that he can't put a monetary cost on it because money no longer exists.

Lilly asks about Picard’s payment to which he responds that the pursuit of wealth is no longer the most important thing in life.

You are linking the two ideas when Picard makes no such link, he does not say "it was free because people aren't paid" which is what you are saying he conveyed.

Hah hah. Watch it again with your brain turned on.

I would advise that you do the same but I fear you will be unable to find that elusive on switch.

Jon · Post by **Jon** » 2004-09-24 09:51am

If the Federation was a communist state that resembled the Soviet Union, a foreign citizen would surely NOT be able to join the military without naturalisation. But we see many examples of non-federation members serving in positions within Starfleet, Nog, Worf (though I accept he was adopted by Fed citizens or something?), Ro Laren- in turn, Religious peoples who would be forced to accept the ideals of the state in the same way Mike states in his essay etc... but we regularly see foreign starfleet officers practicing their rituals- not a second thought given to the inherent atheism that apparently permiates the Fed- nor are they denied the rights to do so.

The Feds are socialist, while there are comparisons with communism, everything reflects a socialist system, many examples you lot give of proof are based on passing comments and obscure incidents, kinda like an dumb ass hermit watching a hollywood movie and seeing one guy paying $30,000 for a suit and assuming that all clothes in the US are so wildly expensive- because we saw it once!

The Federation is not an example of anarcho-collectivism- the fact that the governing body exists alone confirms it, let alone on the scale that it does, member planets having their own govermental hierarchy, etc. There are some obvious communist values in the system and very valid points can be seen made in Mikes essay on the subject as well as common knowledge on how a communist society operates (Oh, flame me if you will for an apparent lack of knowledge about the subject because I dare to disagree) but I do not believe you can make valid judgements about a society as complex as the UFP based upon a couple of lines of dialogue and references. (I'm not suggesting all observations have been, I am aware there are hundreds of episodes of Trek with possibly thousands of examples that support all of our arguments)

If you were a citizen of 4 centuries ago and boarded a military vessel at sea and started talking about your world as it was then, you'd get pretty much the same kinda response the Enterprise D crew would give, sure people in our modern civilisation will know all about the past, but the crew of one ship amongst hundreds, however intelligent and on the ball they are in the present, aren't necessarily going to be experts on the economics of the past. I use my debit card every day, I spend my pounds and pennies, my decimalised currency, I wouldn't have a clue about how the imperial system worked, 200+ pennies in the pound stuff... and that only changed 40 years ago here.

Eframepilot · Post by **Eframepilot** » 2004-09-24 09:15pm

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Communist countries generally do not protect intellectual property. The Federation does, as shown in Voyager's "Author, Author". Writers are shown to have the right to control their artistic creations. Also, there exist publishing firms in the Federation such as Broht and Forrester, who try to steal the Doctor's holonovel.

Barton · Post by **Barton** » 2004-10-11 09:26pm

Praxis wrote:I think this guy doesn't know the difference between Economy and Government. (BTW I wrote a long, nice reply to each of his points before you guys but lost it in a Windows crash...@!$# Microsoft!)

See, countries like the USSR had a Communist economy and a totalarian government. That's not a necessity. While it hasn't happened in this world, it WOULD be technically possible to have a communist economy with a democratic government, as the Federation seems to have.

This democratic government might decide to honor customs of other people, as it appears the Federation seems to do, which would explain why they allow people to use currencies of others (Ferengi, for one) to barter with them.

One thing to think of- how come there are no corporations? No news services? Not even COURTS? EVERYTHING is run by starfleet. StarFleet News Service. The prisons for normal criminals are run by Starfleet. Even the JUDGES are Admirals! EVERYTHING is run by the government.

This fits much better with a communist economy than capitalist.

Government own services is not communist by itself e.g. Singaporean(Singtel/Optus Australia) and Australian (Telstra) governments still own their telecommunication biz monopolies.

Barton · Post by **Barton** » 2004-10-11 09:45pm

Gil Hamilton wrote:
TheDarkling wrote:I was pointing out that even if then did have a currency the answer wouldn't mean anything to her.
Why wouldn't she understand it? She grew up in the 21th century in America, she's going to understand all about electronic currency and credit.

Like what?
He hardly know exactly what went into building the ship or what sort of man hours were required.

How would saying "it took 1000 tons of processed technobabblide to make the main computer" mean anything to Lilly?

He gave a short uncomplicated answer which is understandable (to me at least) considering his ship had been boarded by the Borg and he was on the look out for them.

He could have said it took the shipyard x months to make the ship sure (although that would have been how long the ship took not how much it cost), but I think that not giving that answer is perfectly acceptable given the situation and the question being specifically about "cost" in a monetary context.
You missed the point. She asked about it's cost and came back with "money doesn't exist in the 24th century". If he'd have caught her meaning, he wouldn't have said that, because he'd know full well that the "cost" there, in context, doesn't refer to money, but to resources. Knowing a bit about economics, he'd have known that things do cost something, even without currency, and given some sort of rough guessimation. A patronizing smile and going "well, we don't really use money anymore" when she's talking about resources shows that he doesn't really understand was Lily was saying.

What leads you to that conclusion?
Her asking about resources and him answering with a nonsensical answer about money not existing anymore.

Oh I did, in fact I watched the scene in question before posting.
OK, then pay careful attention to it next time.

No, perhaps you should have paid more attention.

Lily asks how much it cost.
Picard says the economics of the future are somewhat different and that money no longer exists in the 24th century (whether he means on earth or in the Federation is unclear, his statement is certainly erroneous because it does exist several other AQ powers).
Lilly says "No money? You mean you don't get paid"
Picard talks about the acquisition of wealth no longer being the driving force of humanity (which isn't actually "no we don't get paid") and people working for the betterment of mankind.

His talk about the betterment of mankind is an expansion upon his point that greed no longer exists, he then makes a direct comparison to Lilly and Cochrane who most certainly do get paid.

He never says that the Enterprise was free because its workers were working for free for self satisfaction which is what you are interpretation it as.
What you're failing to do is notice that there are two different things being said there by Picard. Lily asks about how much the Enterprise cost leading to... Idea #1 "Money doesn't exist anymore" (Lily makes a tangent and Picard answers with...) Idea #2 "Humans now work for the betterment of humanity, not material gain". Now tie the two ideas together, bozo. In Picard's mind, the Enterprise didn't cost anything because currency didn't change hands.

So have I but maybe you should familiarise yourself with it for your own sake.
Hah hah. Watch it again with your brain turned on.

“Money” is one of form of legal tender (use to be backed by gold reserves). Replicator Credits (based on unit of energy) is another form of legal tender.

It would be true to say that in 24th and 23rd Century doesn’t use “money” per se.

Barton · Post by **Barton** » 2004-10-11 09:58pm

Gil Hamilton wrote:
Patrick Degan wrote:Or that he is thoroughly confused by such a basic concept as investment banking in "The Neutral Zone".
That's the thing. Picard is a man of as liberal education (in the classical meaning of the word) as you can get in those shows, but his understanding of economics is downright ignorant.

For instance, pay attention in "First Contact". Lily crosses the bridge with Picard and she's wide eyed at the scale of the Enterprise, and comments that it took her months to merely scavenge the titanium for the Phoenix and asked just how much the Enterprise cost to build. That's a valid economic comment and question. She's asking about the sheer resources that must have gone into the Enterprise. Picard hears her question and some how in his head he processes this as "How much did the Federation pay people to build this?" and goes on a spiel about how people don't work for money anymore and thus they didn't pay anything for the Enterprise being built. This is a real child-like statement. Even if no money changes hands, the thing is still going to cost something. Picard doesn't understand the "TINSTAAFLS" economic principle, which states "There is no such thing as a free lunch, stupid." You've still got to consume resources like energy, raw materials, industrial processes, support for the workers, et cetera in order to build anything, and the Enterprise represents the collected effort and resources of a small civilization in StarTrek. Yet Picard can't wrap his brain around this. The very concept of economics in the Federation must be very nearly unknown by most of the population.

Both ST:4 and ST:8 has “no money” statements while ST:5 has federal investment bank advertisements (1).

Notes
1. "easy financing through Federation
Federal can put you in your own home
on the beautiful, conveniently located". ST:5

We know Picard has spent most of his life with SF not with non-SF Federation.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-10-11 10:06pm

Barton wrote:Both ST:4 and ST:8 has “no money” statements while ST:5 has federal investment bank advertisements (1).

"No money" could simply mean that they've made cash obsolete, which appears to have happened in the TOS era. But in the TNG era, they do not understand the concepts of investment or even salesmen; pretty strange if they're still capitalist. Capitalism without salesmen is like militarism without soldiers.

Barton · Post by **Barton** » 2004-10-11 10:14pm

Gil Hamilton wrote:
TheDarkling wrote:I was pointing out that even if then did have a currency the answer wouldn't mean anything to her.
Why wouldn't she understand it? She grew up in the 21th century in America, she's going to understand all about electronic currency and credit.

Like what?
He hardly know exactly what went into building the ship or what sort of man hours were required.

How would saying "it took 1000 tons of processed technobabblide to make the main computer" mean anything to Lilly?

He gave a short uncomplicated answer which is understandable (to me at least) considering his ship had been boarded by the Borg and he was on the look out for them.

He could have said it took the shipyard x months to make the ship sure (although that would have been how long the ship took not how much it cost), but I think that not giving that answer is perfectly acceptable given the situation and the question being specifically about "cost" in a monetary context.
You missed the point. She asked about it's cost and came back with "money doesn't exist in the 24th century". If he'd have caught her meaning, he wouldn't have said that, because he'd know full well that the "cost" there, in context, doesn't refer to money, but to resources. Knowing a bit about economics, he'd have known that things do cost something, even without currency, and given some sort of rough guessimation. A patronizing smile and going "well, we don't really use money anymore" when she's talking about resources shows that he doesn't really understand was Lily was saying.

What leads you to that conclusion?
Her asking about resources and him answering with a nonsensical answer about money not existing anymore.

Oh I did, in fact I watched the scene in question before posting.
OK, then pay careful attention to it next time.

No, perhaps you should have paid more attention.

Lily asks how much it cost.
Picard says the economics of the future are somewhat different and that money no longer exists in the 24th century (whether he means on earth or in the Federation is unclear, his statement is certainly erroneous because it does exist several other AQ powers).
Lilly says "No money? You mean you don't get paid"
Picard talks about the acquisition of wealth no longer being the driving force of humanity (which isn't actually "no we don't get paid") and people working for the betterment of mankind.

His talk about the betterment of mankind is an expansion upon his point that greed no longer exists, he then makes a direct comparison to Lilly and Cochrane who most certainly do get paid.

He never says that the Enterprise was free because its workers were working for free for self satisfaction which is what you are interpretation it as.
What you're failing to do is notice that there are two different things being said there by Picard. Lily asks about how much the Enterprise cost leading to... Idea #1 "Money doesn't exist anymore" (Lily makes a tangent and Picard answers with...) Idea #2 "Humans now work for the betterment of humanity, not material gain". Now tie the two ideas together, bozo. In Picard's mind, the Enterprise didn't cost anything because currency didn't change hands.

So have I but maybe you should familiarise yourself with it for your own sake.
Hah hah. Watch it again with your brain turned on.

In reference to

Janeway: Ah! Tuvok's meditation lamp! I was with him when he got it, six years ago, from a Vulcan master - who doubled the price when he saw our Starfleet insignias. – Voyager The Gift.

One can deduce that SF officers are paid well.

Barton · Post by **Barton** » 2004-10-11 10:17pm

Darth Wong wrote:
Barton wrote:Both ST:4 and ST:8 has “no money” statements while ST:5 has federal investment bank advertisements (1).
"No money" could simply mean that they've made cash obsolete, which appears to have happened in the TOS era. But in the TNG era, they do not understand the concepts of investment or even salesmen; pretty strange if they're still capitalist. Capitalism without salesmen is like militarism without soldiers.

Actually, doubling the price of a certain item is an investment.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-10-11 10:22pm

Barton wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:
Barton wrote:Both ST:4 and ST:8 has “no money” statements while ST:5 has federal investment bank advertisements (1).
"No money" could simply mean that they've made cash obsolete, which appears to have happened in the TOS era. But in the TNG era, they do not understand the concepts of investment or even salesmen; pretty strange if they're still capitalist. Capitalism without salesmen is like militarism without soldiers.
Actually, doubling the price of a certain item is an investment.

Quark does that sort of thing all the time, but guess what: he's not a Federation citizen. And I notice that you conspicuously ignore the bit about salesmen being a completely foreign concept to Janeway.

Barton · Post by **Barton** » 2004-10-11 10:26pm

Darth Wong wrote:
Barton wrote:Both ST:4 and ST:8 has “no money” statements while ST:5 has federal investment bank advertisements (1).
"No money" could simply mean that they've made cash obsolete, which appears to have happened in the TOS era. But in the TNG era, they do not understand the concepts of investment or even salesmen; pretty strange if they're still capitalist. Capitalism without salesmen is like militarism without soldiers.

The unknown Vulcan master has the concept of investing in “mediation lamps” and bump up the price IF the customers are SF officers. There’s still investment into items and investment returns activities.

Barton · Post by **Barton** » 2004-10-11 10:32pm

Darth Wong wrote:
Barton wrote:
Darth Wong wrote: "No money" could simply mean that they've made cash obsolete, which appears to have happened in the TOS era. But in the TNG era, they do not understand the concepts of investment or even salesmen; pretty strange if they're still capitalist. Capitalism without salesmen is like militarism without soldiers.
Actually, doubling the price of a certain item is an investment.
Quark does that sort of thing all the time, but guess what: he's not a Federation citizen. And I notice that you conspicuously ignore the bit about salesmen being a completely foreign concept to Janeway.

In ST:III, the said E-Nil crew seek asylum in Vulcan from SF authorities.

Barton · Post by **Barton** » 2004-10-11 10:38pm

Darth Wong wrote:
Barton wrote:
Darth Wong wrote: "No money" could simply mean that they've made cash obsolete, which appears to have happened in the TOS era. But in the TNG era, they do not understand the concepts of investment or even salesmen; pretty strange if they're still capitalist. Capitalism without salesmen is like militarism without soldiers.
Actually, doubling the price of a certain item is an investment.
Quark does that sort of thing all the time, but guess what: he's not a Federation citizen. And I notice that you conspicuously ignore the bit about salesmen being a completely foreign concept to Janeway.

Quark is not a Vulcan Master that teaches Logic. A Vulcan that is non-Federation would be defined as Romulan (same species).

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-10-11 10:47pm

Barton wrote:A Vulcan that is non-Federation would be defined as Romulan (same species).

I'm afraid I'm going to have to dispute that. A Romulan is one of the Vulcan race who rejected logic to continue their violent ways, and left to found Romulus. The term Romulan refers to those specific people, not every Vulcan living outside the Federation.

Barton · Post by **Barton** » 2004-10-11 10:49pm

Quark does that sort of thing all the time, but guess what: he's not a Federation citizen. And I notice that you conspicuously ignore the bit about salesmen being a completely foreign concept to Janeway.

In the following statements;
"PICARD >> It's called the Blue Parrot Cafe... and you're buying." - TNG "We'll Always Have Paris".

Somebody has invested into a Cafe business and one has to buy/purchase the services and goods.

Barton · Post by **Barton** » 2004-10-11 10:53pm

Rogue 9 wrote:
Barton wrote:A Vulcan that is non-Federation would be defined as Romulan (same species).
I'm afraid I'm going to have to dispute that. A Romulan is one of the Vulcan race who rejected logic to continue their violent ways, and left to found Romulus. The term Romulan refers to those specific people, not every Vulcan living outside the Federation.

Are you defining, an Amercian living outside USA is now defined as non-American citizen?