There. GL and I are of a mind on this.
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Moderator: Vympel
Not to some fanboy and push come to shove the EU as well.Spanky The Dolphin wrote:I thought that was sort of an implied given.
That was GL's point. That VAder thought he was going to be some uber Jedi but in the end was this pathetic crippled old man who had to scrap with the Emperor's underlings for power. I would think that sort of relaitonship is precisely what a Sith lord would encourage.SPOOFE wrote:I always got the impression that Palpatine wanted Vader to know that he wasn't special, which I always thought was a great contrast to Anakin's (in Ep. II) whining about how he's going to be the greatest ever... and he winds up as a glorified thug/vacuum cleaner hybrid.
I'm currently watching ESB commentray right now, but he said something along the lines of this: "The movies are essentially Vader's story and at this point in the story he is a pathetic creature. He thought he would be powerful but now he is merely an equal among the Emperor's greatest minions (Tarkin)"Spanky The Dolphin wrote:Perchance, Stravo, what's Lucas' exact words concerning the subject?
Just curious is all.
Illuminatus Primus wrote:Yeah, thematically he is a broken man, naturally. This does not translate literally do bureaucrats and politicos being Vader's equals. Why would even Palpatine see such swine as in the same race as Force sensitives?
Being "one among equals" is hardly being "pushed around."Stravo wrote:So...GL's vision of Vader is over rided by the EU?? The guy said he is being pushed around by Beauracrats, how the mighty have fallen.
Which means he's their punching bag?Stravo wrote:He is an equal among the Emperor's lackeys.
If he was that much of a liability and to be trusted with no latitude to exercise his awesome power, why the hell would you recruit the Chosen One in the first place?Stravo wrote:These are his words. It works if you look at the way it would work for Palpatine. Vader is constantly fighting for position and power and has no time to plot against the Emperor.
If he's the right hand man, and the other lackeys aren't, than Vader is implicitly stronger than they are, no?Stravo wrote:And if he succeeded then does that not also fit into the whole Sith survival of the fittest and might makes right kind of philosphy? In other words that set up with Vader's position as nebulous (GL also says that Vader has no clear rank in the power structure other than Emperor's right hand man.) challenges him to better himself and overcome the obstacles his master has placed for him.
What GL said he intended Vader to be is completely irrelevent. Why you ask? Because the thematic analysis of literature occurs quite independently of the author in the cases they are dead; the content is most important.Stravo wrote:I just don't like other authors telling us who Vader was when the guy who created him just told us what he intended to be.
No those were GL's words not mine. He pointed out that poor Vader was essentially being pushed around by beauracrats in the choking Motti scene.Illuminatus Primus wrote:Being "one among equals" is hardly being "pushed around."Stravo wrote:So...GL's vision of Vader is over rided by the EU?? The guy said he is being pushed around by Beauracrats, how the mighty have fallen.
Illuminatus Primus wrote:And the EU describes Vader as the "Imperial emissiary" with the job of making sure Tarkin remained loyal, and no real rank or position.
Gee, I never used the term punching bag nor did I say he was weak, I just said he's scrapping with Trakin and the others for dominance.Illuminatus Primus wrote:Which means he's their punching bag?Stravo wrote:He is an equal among the Emperor's lackeys.
Haven't seen Ep III yet to really know the answer to that question. But we may surmise that Palpatine recruited the Chosen one to steal the last hope of the Jedi away. "You can't balance the Force now can you? He's mine!" And the irony of fate and destiny come into play with a flavor of Greek tragedy.Illuminatus Primus wrote:If he was that much of a liability and to be trusted with no latitude to exercise his awesome power, why the hell would you recruit the Chosen One in the first place?Stravo wrote:These are his words. It works if you look at the way it would work for Palpatine. Vader is constantly fighting for position and power and has no time to plot against the Emperor.
Unless the Emperor has set up another power struggle culture in his new fleet. Essentially telling Thrawn "You are in command of my fleet, you are charged with conquering this new galaxy in my name. You have absolute authority." "Cool." "Oh, by the way I'm sending Vader long, you know...to keep an eye on things." "Oh? Well where does he stand?" "He's an official observer." "This means what?" "You can go now Grand Admiral."Illuminatus Primus wrote: If he's the right hand man, and the other lackeys aren't, than Vader is implicitly stronger than they are, no?
You originally came in saying this was in refutation of my bitching about your Vader characterization.
Your Vader is post-TESB. So how is this at all relevent if you're admitting he transcended his prior "equals." In fact you're refuting yourself.
Palpatine didn't want a more powerful underling, he wanted a new underling- Sith Apprentices are not in the game for any other reason than to eventually replace their Masters- as Vader was planning, by taking Luke as his apprentice, in ESB. In ROTJ he appears to have changed his mind, true, but the thoughts are clearly there.Finally, it's clear that the Emperor doesn't think he's such hot irreplacable shit. In RotJ, at the end, Palpatine was all ready to sacrifice Vader to get Luke ready for the new Dark Helmet. If Luke killed his dad, BAM, Palpatine gets a new, more powerful underling, and that's all he cares about. He doesn't give two bags of bantha dropping for Vader, he's just a pawn, just like everyone else. From watching RotJ, this appeared to be quite a suprise to him.
See also: Maul, Darth; Tyrannis, Darth.Gil Hamilton wrote:He doesn't give two bags of bantha dropping for Vader, he's just a pawn, just like everyone else.
According to Lucas' commentary in ESB you can never have more than two Sith, because if you have three, the other two will gang up on the master in order to achieve dominance. Its just the nature of these guys. He also adds that at first Vader only sees Luke as a mechanism to help him depose the Emperor which has been his goal since the beginning which leads me to wonder what exactly IS the dynamic between those two? Did Vader join the Emperor with the intention to usurp his power from the beginning? Was it a gradual thing? He also adds that Luke was a disposal commodity for Ben and Yoda because there is another. Pretty sad huh? Luke is nothing more than a mechanism for all the big players.Vympel wrote:It works both ways, of course- Vader, Tyranus, and probably Maul had he lived didn't give a shit about Sidious, I'm sure- they're using each other.
This is precisely it. See the radio drama; Motti suggests using the Death Star to gain "equality" to the Emperor for Tarkin, and Tarkin says that Vader would make that difficult. Motti convinces Tarkin that "Formidable as he is, the Dark Lord of the Sith is not an insurmountable problem. The personnel on this station owe their loyalty to you. Lord Vader, for all his superstitious trickery, can be 'dealt with.'" Vader was present to keep Governor Tarkin and the various generals, admirals, and lords on the station in line, though until Tarkin became rebellious, he was to follow the governor's orders.C. Vadar did officaly outrank Tarkin but held his temper and took orders from him because either he respected Tarkin or the Emperor wished him to playact in this role. Possibly as a 'hidden' brake on Tarkin in case he got dillusions of grandure.
That's not what you quoted.Stravo wrote:No those were GL's words not mine. He pointed out that poor Vader was essentially being pushed around by beauracrats in the choking Motti scene.
Again, this somehow supports your concept of the Grand Admiral being a more direct representative of the Emperor how?Stravo wrote:GL describes it as trying to show the tension between the military arm of the Empire and the Mystical arm of the Empire represented by Vader.
Yes, on Tarkin's battlestation, in Tarkin's territory. Big surprise there. And this has what to do with TESB and ROTJ?Stravo wrote:Gee, I never used the term punching bag nor did I say he was weak, I just said he's scrapping with Trakin and the others for dominance.
That makes no sense. Why wouldn't you just kill him then? Palpatine used himself as bait in order to come up with an equal replacement for Vader in Luke. He must have some need or he would not do that. Or you're arguing that Palpatine is a complete moron. Your pick.Stravo wrote:Haven't seen Ep III yet to really know the answer to that question. But we may surmise that Palpatine recruited the Chosen one to steal the last hope of the Jedi away. "You can't balance the Force now can you? He's mine!" And the irony of fate and destiny come into play with a flavor of Greek tragedy.
And this has what to do with TESB or ROTJ?Stravo wrote:And who says Vader can't exercise power? He was choking Motti in that scene and released him because he chose to follow Tarkin's order. Its typical of a power structuire where the Emperor has essentially set up an ambiguos chain of command. No one quite knows where they stand.
The ANH early scripts are far more radically different and more numerous than the scripts of TESB and ROTJ vs the actual film. To say "early ANH script" is a whole lot different than "early ROTJ script."Stravo wrote:As an aside since you know this better than I, I heard that in the Radio drama or early drafts of the script, Tarkin was actually receiving some dark side training from the Emperor, perhaps indicating a switch in lackeys?
Ok, right. A similar conflict was set up in A New Hope, invalidated by The Empire Strikes Back, and you suddenly reinvent it (which, because Vader is supreme commander, makes no sense), and GL's therefore behind you? Sorry, doesn't follow.Stravo wrote:Unless the Emperor has set up another power struggle culture in his new fleet. Essentially telling Thrawn "You are in command of my fleet, you are charged with conquering this new galaxy in my name. You have absolute authority." "Cool." "Oh, by the way I'm sending Vader long, you know...to keep an eye on things." "Oh? Well where does he stand?" "He's an official observer." "This means what?" "You can go now Grand Admiral."
Well you believe that he was going to die, so of course he was going to lose power eventually.Stravo wrote:That kind of ambiguity works perfectly for Palpatine because he obviously never thought he was going to lose power.
It would have been a tad different if the Dark Lord of the Sith and Supreme Commander of the armed forces survived to ascend his Master's mantle.Stravo wrote:After all, one thing that sped the fall of the Empire is that there was no clear line of succession after he died.
Several Latin American banana republics would care to disagree; its often best to neutralize aspiring, ambitious, and popular young politicos by neutralizing them and having a designated lackey for your replacement.Stravo wrote:One of the things that any dictator learns quickly is that you always keep succession ambiguous so no one can organize a coup.