STGOD 4 OOC Thread (part 2)

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-09-22 09:29pm

Since when are we allowed to use point defense fire on railgun shells? Besides, that's a mass driver. You're shooting little missiles designed to take out other missiles into a 15 ton mass of iron/equivalent technobabble heavy solid stuff moving at a fifth the speed of light. What exactly do you think this will do, eh?

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2004-09-22 09:33pm

Rogue 9 wrote:Since when are we allowed to use point defense fire on railgun shells? Besides, that's a mass driver. You're shooting little missiles designed to take out other missiles into a 15 ton mass of iron/equivalent technobabble heavy solid stuff moving at a fifth the speed of light. What exactly do you think this will do, eh?

Since forever.

And those countermissles, they aren't so little. They're designed to make a kinetic kill on my missles which weight about 120 tons and travel at .9c or better with ram up time.

Would you rather I just have the fleet move a bit and avoid them entirely? I can do that too.

Mass drivers make shitty weapons at long range.

Pablo Sanchez · Post by **Pablo Sanchez** » 2004-09-22 09:34pm

Rogue 9 wrote:1.) When was it decided that Interdictors were an allowable technology? At the beginning of the game, no one had them at all.

There's never been any hard-and-fast "allowable/not allowable" technology difference. We set a general tech level and decided these things case-by-case, like everything else.

2.) I've been led to understand that at some point it was decided that interdictors were allowable, and a small number was allowed to be added to the support ships of each fleet.

I don't know how, where, or when you got that idea. People built them and are building them as we speak. Nobody gets to simply pull them out their ass.

As for Darksider's OOB expansion, that was due to ships that he had actually constructed. As opposed to saying "BTW, I have interdictors" suddenly and without preamble.

4.) My OOB (along with a lot of other people's) was not completed right away; Marcao took forever to finish his, for example. Are you seriously suggesting that I didn't have any ground troops until I got around to putting them into my OOB?

It isn't necessary to have an in-depth ground force order of battle.

When was this magic date after which OOBs were declared done and you're SOL if you forgot anything further? I missed the memo.

When you stop crying enough to see your monitor again read this:
Blanket rules cannot be made to fit all the contingencies, or even the majority of them, because this is a very freeform game. This is why there are moderators, so that we can make a case-by-case accounting of all the problems. You decided, abruptly, that you need interdictors and that you were just going to pull them out of your ass. You got called on it.

Thirdfain · Post by **Thirdfain** » 2004-09-22 09:34pm

Yeah, Rogue, using direct fire guns at missile range will not get you much.

Straha · Post by **Straha** » 2004-09-22 09:35pm

Rogue 9 wrote:1.) When was it decided that Interdictors were an allowable technology? At the beginning of the game, no one had them at all. 2.) I've been led to understand that at some point it was decided that interdictors were allowable, and a small number was allowed to be added to the support ships of each fleet. 3.) Darksider didn't just copy his original OOB over from the old OOB thread; he expanded on it. A lot. 4.) My OOB (along with a lot of other people's) was not completed right away; Marcao took forever to finish his, for example. Are you seriously suggesting that I didn't have any ground troops until I got around to putting them into my OOB? Because I didn't finish detailing my army and it's equipment until at least four months into the game, possibly later. When was this magic date after which OOBs were declared done and you're SOL if you forgot anything further? I missed the memo.

Fine, we give you Interdictors, you give us Interdictors over Bredith where we said 'We don't have interdictors because we didn't put them in our OOB. Silly us, next time we'll do this righ.'

Pablo Sanchez · Post by **Pablo Sanchez** » 2004-09-22 09:36pm

Straha wrote:Fine, we give you Interdictors, you give us Interdictors over Bredith where we said 'We don't have interdictors because we didn't put them in our OOB. Silly us, next time we'll do this righ.'

You guys don't get to make that call. If either of you want interdictors, you're going to have to build them.

Straha · Post by **Straha** » 2004-09-22 09:39pm

Pablo Sanchez wrote:
Straha wrote:Fine, we give you Interdictors, you give us Interdictors over Bredith where we said 'We don't have interdictors because we didn't put them in our OOB. Silly us, next time we'll do this righ.'
You guys don't get to make that call. If either of you want interdictors, you're going to have to build them.

Two things

A. I missed your post directly above, my bad.

B. The point was that if he gets to Retconn interdictors in now, we should be offered the same chance with a battle where us having interdictors would be very bad for him, and something which would hopefully dissuade him from arguing a moot point further.

Agent Fisher · Post by **Agent Fisher** » 2004-09-22 09:43pm

would it be alright if i added into my OOB, Boarding Craft. I had forgotten to put them in.

If not I will simply have them built.

Pablo Sanchez · Post by **Pablo Sanchez** » 2004-09-22 09:55pm

Agent Fisher wrote:would it be alright if i added into my OOB, Boarding Craft. I had forgotten to put them in.

If not I will simply have them built.

If you expect them to play a major role in combat, then you must declare them. Since you just started, you can stick them in. Don't expect them to be worth anything at all, because our navies are right now in the equivalent of the dreadnought age--firepower is supreme, and your ships would be vaporized before they even got in the same zip code.

Straha · Post by **Straha** » 2004-09-22 09:56pm

Pablo Sanchez wrote:
Agent Fisher wrote:would it be alright if i added into my OOB, Boarding Craft. I had forgotten to put them in.

If not I will simply have them built.
If you expect them to play a major role in combat, then you must declare them. Since you just started, you can stick them in. Don't expect them to be worth anything at all, because our navies are right now in the equivalent of the dreadnought age--firepower is supreme, and your ships would be vaporized before they even got in the same zip code.

Well, the dreadnoughts can take up entire zip code areas.. so yeah.

Pablo Sanchez · Post by **Pablo Sanchez** » 2004-09-22 09:58pm

Straha wrote:Well, the dreadnoughts can take up entire zip code areas.. so yeah.

Figure of speech, you mook.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2004-09-22 10:14pm

Because I'm bored tonight:

INFODUMP!

A Breif Introduction to the Roterwulf:

The Roterwulf-class Superdreadnaught represents the beginning of the fourth generation of Invictus-type superdreadnaughts. Begun before the war as a classified study into the design of future capital warships. With many of the Known Space powers feilding so called super-capital ships it was determined that the Wulfen were no longer entirely suitable. Still, in the time of tight budgets there was little the Admiralty could do to convince the Senate to do about it. The Wulfen was still a highly capable and competitive platform.

The Ouster invasion changed all that. With the so called Restoration, the hard-line traditionalists came once more to power. This paved the way for the so-called Red Group designs to go forward from a rather expansive 'study' into a full blown design. The first of the Roterwulfs: Roterwulf, Eisenhand, Iron Heart, and Inviolable, were laid down just as war broke out.

Design Details

The Roterwulfs are of a generally larger size than the Wulfen. Some of that goes to increased stowage for missle pods, the majority of it goes to more energy for the guns and increased protection. It mounts more ECM, PD,CMs, and additionally within it's massive bulk it also has more armor and finer subdivision.

THe biggest improvement in the Roterwulf is her energy armament. Whereas the Wulfen had a limited amount of EEC guns, the Roterwulf has many more. In addition they are of an improved type that allows for marginally faster cycling and better energy consumption. Colliqually these big guns have become known as Hell Cannons to the Navy men, and these ships have traded in most of their graser battery for EEC-grasers. This heavy armament makes the Roterwulf a far more dangerous gunslinger; both range and her capacity to inflict damage have been seriously increased.

While she retains the excellent missle fire rate of all the Invictus-type ships, she's far more a return to the big gun era.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2004-09-22 10:18pm

Oh, if some one wants to play spy with that information go ahead. I'm game for a bit of intel wars.

Marcao · Post by **Marcao** » 2004-09-22 11:14pm

Heya Fellas:

I got two points to talk about.

1. I approve of the idea of the Unification getting a Psilon like deal from the Ny`llorians. Ie, the Unification gets to control 1/3 of the Ny`llorian navy. The precedent was started with the Psilons and I see no reason to change it.

2. It has been my interpretation that EVERY navy in the game has had accesss to Interdictors from the beggining of the game. As such, I have told SEVERAL people this. As I see it, it would be foolish in the extreme to not believe that a power in the current STGOD would not anticipate the need for Interdictors. I use them, they are listed underneath my Fleet Auxilliaries. The Ousters use them, the UP has used them on several occasions and the KSE was granted the right to use them eventhough they were not listed in their OOB. As far as I see it, EVERY nation should have access to them and should have several such vessels in their inventories. This is a game breaker, part of the reason why we all have hyperspace blocking shields.

Let's be honest here folks. Interdictors are NECESSARY tools in order to force engagements. They are necessary tools for pirates for fuck's sake, and I have been running under the assumption that the rule was that EVERYONE had access to them. Should they be listed in the OOB? Absofuckinglutely, but we all know that there are some OOB's that are not as thorough as we all would like. Not every OOB can be a Veithan/Ouster/Nasthar analogue for completeness. If any UPA nation is at fault in the Interdictor issue, it is TOTALLY my fault, since I think most of these nations talk to me primarily and as such, had to work with what I thought were the rules at the time.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2004-09-23 12:04am

My arguement for improved ECM over interdictors:

1) I'll be permanently trading off the ability to develop/build interdictors in favor of the improved ECM systems. As I see it, this is rather like Straha being able to trade off an powerful navy for a great army.

2) It'll have it's disadvantages as well as advantages. I can't force a fleeing fleet to battle using interdictors nor can I use them for commerce raiding. Both of those are signifcant disadvantages. I fully intend to comply with both of them.

3) I for one don't see the Asgard as wanting them. Their doctrine is strictly Mahonian: come in smash the guys in the way, smash the target. Done. If they run that only weakens their position. I for one don't see the interdictor as appealing to them at all and I'd rather play them as their character dictates rather than as the game necessitates.

4) This is not going to be a mircale ability. If I treat it as such, the mods may feel to slap me down for it.

Captain tycho · Post by **Captain tycho** » 2004-09-23 12:11am

Oh, yay, I get one week off from work.

Free time, baby.

Post by **Beowulf** » 2004-09-23 12:59am

Interdictors are not necessary to force engagements. Another way to force an engagement is to assault something that the defender cannot afford to lose without a fight. Core worlds, shipyards and the like fall under this category.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-09-23 04:10am

Beowulf wrote:Interdictors are not necessary to force engagements. Another way to force an engagement is to assault something that the defender cannot afford to lose without a fight. Core worlds, shipyards and the like fall under this category.

To a point, yes, but the current situation over Mintar is a perfect counter-example. The use of interdiction fields by the Unification attackers would force the system battle group to stay and fight rather than withdrawing to join a larger fleet and return within the hour. As it stands, I get to mass my fleet since Stormbringer didn't deploy interdictors to force me to fight him piecemeal.

Thirdfain · Post by **Thirdfain** » 2004-09-23 09:24am

Let me put it this way. I oppose ANY method in which you are able to evacuate a full third of your military shipyards in 10 minutes, much less two. Capisce? Are you telling me your warships are so poorly designed that they use up huge ammounts of weapons and shielding space to fit transpace portal generators capable of moving shipyards which are many dozens of kilometers in length?

-edit- Clarification: He's not evacuating the personelle from the shipyards. He's removing them intact.

Thirdfain · Post by **Thirdfain** » 2004-09-23 10:06am

Hell, if I was allowed to do that, why even bother worrying about my Clusters? Once the EW nets detected incoming enemies, I'd just pack up my military shipyards and jump out. If it only takes 10 minutes, why, they'd be gone a good 10-15 before the enemy fleets arrived.

Hotfoot · Post by **Hotfoot** » 2004-09-23 10:07am

As of this point in time, I don't think anyone in this STGOD has been able to throw entire stations around in hyperspace, at least not unless they were divided into sections and towed along by a specialized hyperspace unit, etc. and so forth.

If you wanted to evacuate personnel, maybe some ships that were almost completed, that's one thing, but tossing the whole shipyard into hyperspace without at least several days (if not weeks or months) of prep time (where they cannot do anything, no ship building/repairing, nothing) is a little silly.

Dahak · Post by **Dahak** » 2004-09-23 10:34am

Hotfoot wrote:As of this point in time, I don't think anyone in this STGOD has been able to throw entire stations around in hyperspace, at least not unless they were divided into sections and towed along by a specialized hyperspace unit, etc. and so forth.

If you wanted to evacuate personnel, maybe some ships that were almost completed, that's one thing, but tossing the whole shipyard into hyperspace without at least several days (if not weeks or months) of prep time (where they cannot do anything, no ship building/repairing, nothing) is a little silly.

Well, for my current territorial expansion, I had several of my floating cities transported to other star systems near-by to get development jump-started.
But then I had time to prepare for that, and they were designed to perform as such, with some little, easy to repair damage through transit...

Murazor · Post by **Murazor** » 2004-09-23 01:16pm

Thirdfain wrote:Let me put it this way. I oppose ANY method in which you are able to evacuate a full third of your military shipyards in 10 minutes, much less two. Capisce? Are you telling me your warships are so poorly designed that they use up huge ammounts of weapons and shielding space to fit transpace portal generators capable of moving shipyards which are many dozens of kilometers in length?

-edit- Clarification: He's not evacuating the personelle from the shipyards. He's removing them intact.

Transpace generators are big and they can open B5 style jump points that can be crossed by whole fleets. Those generated by motherships (which are poorly armed) are the biggest by a long shot, followed by those of dreadnoughts and attack carriers (that need minutes to power their drives) and Constellations (that use almost all their power in opening the portal). Even if the shipyards are supposed to be that big (dozens of km in length?), the operation shouldn't be so complicated considering the concept. It is just openning a big portal in the known path of an orbital estructure that is helping in the maneuver (I suppose that space stations have at least maneuvering thrusters).

Obviously you don't want me to do it and I want to do it. It is unlikely that we will be able to reach an agreement about this, so I suppose that it is up to the mods to decide whether I can do it or not.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2004-09-23 01:24pm

Um...
No.

Just throwing my two cents in, but..

No.

Removing star stations intact was something hard to do when it was the ASVS STGOD, and that was a hell of a higher tech level.

So I reiterate. Hell no.

Murazor · Post by **Murazor** » 2004-09-23 01:35pm

SirNitram wrote:Removing star stations intact

Just for clarification, those removed shipyards wouldn't have been intact. They would have suffered damage because of the speed with which the removal was done and they would be in need of some serious repairs before returning to active duty, but even a damaged shipyard is better than an Ouster destroyed shipyard.