Female hostages murdered

Jean Paul · Post by **Jean Paul** » 2004-09-22 08:15pm

Just saw in the news that the female Italian aid workers have been killed by their captors.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2004-09-22 08:21pm

There truly is no bedrock of evil acts to stop these people. They seem capable of anything.

At least there may be hope for the Briton who was captured days ago, though the latest plea video is disturbing.

theski · Post by **theski** » 2004-09-22 08:29pm

Can anyone else confirm this... can't find it anywhere??

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2004-09-22 09:57pm

If I was president, the bombers would be taking off...

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2004-09-22 10:08pm

theski wrote:Can anyone else confirm this... can't find it anywhere??

They're trying to confirm it now.

theski · Post by **theski** » 2004-09-22 10:16pm

neoolong wrote:
theski wrote:Can anyone else confirm this... can't find it anywhere??
They're trying to confirm it now.

THank you

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2004-09-22 10:22pm

You know, it's shit like this that really does make it hard to believe that the best of Middle East Islam are deluded fundamentalists and the worst of them barbaric trash to be eliminated. How the hell it is that we're supposed to believe Islam is a religion of peace when shit like this happens and it's greeted by resounding silence in the Muslim World?

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-09-23 12:19am

Stormbringer wrote:You know, it's shit like this that really does make it hard to believe that the best of Middle East Islam are deluded fundamentalists and the worst of them barbaric trash to be eliminated. How the hell it is that we're supposed to believe Islam is a religion of peace when shit like this happens and it's greeted by resounding silence in the Muslim World?

The same way we're supposed to believe that Christianity is a religion of peace after Hitler and the Nazis: we're supposed to overlook the bad and focus on the good. Religionists are incredibly good at whining about persecution; if any secular movement had the kind of history that Islam or Christianity had, it would be banned.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2004-09-23 12:22am

Darth Wong wrote:The same way we're supposed to believe that Christianity is a religion of peace after Hitler and the Nazis: we're supposed to overlook the bad and focus on the good. Religionists are incredibly good at whining about persecution; if any secular movement had the kind of history that Islam or Christianity had, it would be banned.

Oh, I know religion is put on a pedestal. I think it's crap, particularly when it blinds us and ties our hands in what is essentially a clash of religion and culture.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2004-09-23 12:28am

Darth Wong wrote:The same way we're supposed to believe that Christianity is a religion of peace after Hitler and the Nazis

Oh yes, lets ignore the fact that the Nazis imprisioned church leaders
who didn't do their bidding and tried to replace the Catholic and
Protestant Chruches with a National German Church which was
of course, controlled with Nazis. Or for that matter, the "official"
stance of the SS was neo-paganism, especially with Himmler
and his crackpot theories.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2004-09-23 12:39am

Seriously, by your logic, why should we believe that the Orthodox Church is a Religion of Peace (TM) after the Soviet Union?

Yep, from 1920 to 1991, the Russian Orthodox Church was merely another
organ of State Security, with the priests acting as informers; the REAL
believers had long ago been shot and killed and replaced with compliant
priests who bowed to Moscow's line

frigidmagi · Post by **frigidmagi** » 2004-09-23 01:30am

Strange that Nazis were perfectly willing to slaughter millions of Christians alongside the Jews and the Christians. The Nazi's hunted Polish priest for example, about 10000 Polish priest, teachers and officals were killed in a long term plan to leave the Poles an ignorent slave race.

But they didn't just screw with the Poles. Hitler and Himmler wanted no church or school or anything that they didn't control, they conducted a cultural war with the end goal of having National Socialism replace Christianity has the main binding force in Europe at the time. Has recorded by the New York Times.

The Times reported that among recent Nazi measures “against the Roman Catholic Church” in German held territories, was the billeting of soldiers in convents, one of which, the convent and girls school of St. Francis de Sales in Vienna, was to house 150 soldiers for two years. (N.Y. Times, Jan 21, 1939, p. 4, 6)

These and other measures were part of the organized “war on Christianity” waged throughout the Reich territories by the Nazi regime, according to a letter written in June, 1941 to Pope Pius XII by the Catholic bishops of the Third Reich. During their annual meeting in Fulda, at the tomb of St. Boniface, they related to the pontiff the severity and depth of the systematic war against the church by the Third Reich. They informed the pope that Catholic organizations were disbanded, pressure was brought to bear on influential men in German society to deny their faith, schools and Catholic institutions closed, printing houses closed, monasteries and religious closed and confiscated, holy days canceled in favor of work days, priests and religious sisters arrested and sent to concentration camps. “In this and in other ways freedom of conscience is repressed to a degree that is simply intolerable for man made to the image of God and for Christians.” (N.Y. Times, October 20, 1945, p. 4, 2-5)

Michael Cardinal von Faulhaber issued a similar report to the Holy See in 1942. This reported the confiscation of church property, arrest of bishops, priests, and religious, the closing of Catholic printing houses, labor organizations, and other Catholic institutions, the pressure upon Catholic workers and students to absent themselves from Mass, the characterizing of the Church as a “super-national organization” which Germans loyal to the Reich and to the new world order should shun. (N.Y. Times, May 9, 1942, p. 1, 2+3; p. 5, 2)

The Reich even published a hymnal under the auspices of the “Institute for the Examination of Jewish Influence on the Church Life of Germany.” Much of the traditional hymnody was replaced by songs touting Nazi themes of race and homeland, such as a baptismal hymn entitled, “Tender Child of German Blood.” There were, as well, reports that Hitler would establish his own national church. (N.Y. Times, May 10, 1942, p. 14, 3)

Nothing brought home the reality of Hitler’s systematic war against the Catholic Church in particular, and against Christianity in general, so much as did the pastoral letter signed by all the Roman Catholic bishops in the Reich territories, issued on March 22, 1942 and read from every Catholic pulpit throughout the Third Reich. They asserted “that Hitler would blot out from the entire earth every vestige of Christianity, if he should find it advisable in his military undertakings.” (N.Y. Times, June 9, 1942, p. 12, 6) The bishops condemned Hitler’s policies of official murder of the innocent and of those judged “unproductive citizens.” (N.Y. Times, June 7, 1942, p. 12, 1-5)

“The Nazis, the bishops say, ‘wish to destroy Christianity in Germany during the war before the soldiers return home.’”

The Times observed that the church leaders “are virtually the only Germans still speaking up against the Nazi regime.” (N.Y. Times, June 8, 1942, p. 6, 2) Bishop von Galen of Muenster repeatedly condemned Himmler and the Gestapo as “tyrants and murderers.” (ibid.) During the summer of 1941, Bishop von Galen preached three sermons denouncing Nazi racial and anti-religious principles. The immediate outcome of the Bishop’s first sermon was that the Nazi government dissolved all Roman Catholic religious orders in the Province of Westphalia, and a number of prominent Roman Catholics were imprisoned. The next week, the Bishop mounted his pulpit to decry the injustices within the country that “‘cried aloud to heaven for redress.’” The Times stated that the bishop “in outspoken terms has condemned unauthorized killings of invalids and the insane, and Nazi racial doctrines.” (N.Y. Times, June 8, 1942, p. 6, 2-3)

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2004-09-23 01:39am

A subject for another thread, dontcha think?

A discussion of the relation between christianity and the Third Reich is not really relevant to this topic.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2004-09-23 01:45am

Look! A red herring! Christians killing Christians! No, that couldn't possibly happen in a religion which burned people alive for being of a slightly different denomination! Not at all!

frigidmagi · Post by **frigidmagi** » 2004-09-23 01:46am

Red Herring my ass Hitler was suppose to be Catholic.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2004-09-23 01:49am

frigidmagi wrote:Red Herring my ass Hitler was suppose to be Catholic.

And he murdered other catholics. This is odd how? You think there was never infighting in the Crusades or Inquisition?

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2004-09-23 01:52am

Do you have anything other to add other than sniping at Frigid magi's research with absolutly worthless witticisms, Nitram?

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2004-09-23 01:54am

MKSheppard wrote:Do you have anything other to add other than sniping at Frigid magi's research with absolutly worthless witticisms, Nitram?

Given that people here have nothing to add but the same old tired No True Scotsman fallacies.. I don't see why I should add more.

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2004-09-23 02:01am

SirNitram wrote:Look! A red herring! Christians killing Christians! No, that couldn't possibly happen in a religion which burned people alive for being of a slightly different denomination! Not at all!

He was only responding to Mike's comment. Perhaps this should be split, so as to not divert the original thread

Post by **Edi** » 2004-09-23 02:05am

Frigidmagi, why don't you take a look at Mike's Science vs Creationism pages and specifically the Essay section, there is one about Hitler's religion and it's very, very good. The 1940s articles from NY Times are all well and good, but they seem to contain quite a bit of the wartime propaganda slant. Not saying that you're wrong about Hitler and Himmler being control freaks, but the claim of them wanting to replace Christianity with Nazism is rather suspect at best. I think it would be more accurate to say that they wanted state controlled churches, which is an altogether different thing.

Edi

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2004-09-23 02:06am

MKSheppard wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:The same way we're supposed to believe that Christianity is a religion of peace after Hitler and the Nazis
Oh yes, lets ignore the fact that the Nazis imprisioned church leaders who didn't do their bidding and tried to replace the Catholic and Protestant Chruches with a National German Church which was of course, controlled with Nazis. Or for that matter, the "official" stance of the SS was neo-paganism, especially with Himmler and his crackpot theories.

Yes they imprisoned them ... because they wouldn't do their bidding, not because they were Christians, you idiot. Christians throughout history have had absolutely no problem killing and slaughtering each other. Thomas More was executed as a result of his defiance to Henry VIII's formation of the Church of England. Over a hundred thousand Protestants were killed in just over a week on the St. Bartholomew Day's massacre. During her reign, Queen Mary averaged burning a Catholic at the stake once every three or four days.

Hell, it was considered progress when Queen Elizabeth I didn't just rampantly execute Catholics. Of course, that all changed after the Catholics rose up against her in rebellion. Then she had no problem executing them en masse.

So let's stop pretending that Hitler's willingness to kill Christians who defied him means that he didn't believe in Jesus Christ as the son of God. Many other Christian monarchs throughout history have done the exact same thing. If you'd like to argue that European dictators and monarchs in the 1500's weren't "true" Christians, though, be my guest.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2004-09-23 02:25am

Durandal, this all started when Mike did that stupid as fuck statement:

Darth Wong wrote:The same way we're supposed to believe that Christianity is a religion of peace after Hitler and the Nazis

I command you to go read The Order of the Death's Head
by Heinz Höhne, it goes into very detailed reading about Religion
in the SS.

Coalition · Post by **Coalition** » 2004-09-23 04:21am

Why do we consider it worse that terrorists are beheading women rather than men?

Is this based on the idea that men are to keep women from harm, etc.?

Just a random thought.

Post by **Colonel Olrik** » 2004-09-23 04:35am

Coalition wrote:Why do we consider it worse that terrorists are beheading women rather than men?

Is this based on the idea that men are to keep women from harm, etc.?

A man places the life of children and women before its own, unless he's an worthless coward that is. It's a genetic instinct, can't really fight it.

Sarevok · Post by **Sarevok** » 2004-09-23 05:10am

Stormbringer wrote:You know, it's shit like this that really does make it hard to believe that the best of Middle East Islam are deluded fundamentalists and the worst of them barbaric trash to be eliminated. How the hell it is that we're supposed to believe Islam is a religion of peace when shit like this happens and it's greeted by resounding silence in the Muslim World?

Well the small number of terrorists who this kind of despicable acts really dont represent Islam. They are a minority. Most muslims are opposed to terrorism.

Furthermore many of the acts terrorists do violate the teachings of the Prophet. They do stuff like suicide bombing when the very act of suicide if forbidden in Islam.