Kerry plays the draft card

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2004-09-23 11:13am

Answering a question about the draft that had been posed at a forum with voters, Kerry said: "If George Bush were to be re-elected, given the way he has gone about this war and given his avoidance of responsibility in North Korea and Iran and other places, is it possible? I can't tell you."

Post by **Vympel** » 2004-09-23 11:20am

Erm, huh?

What's he going to do, give a categorical NO and proclaim his great faith in the Wonder Chimp, never mind the military's stretched to breaking point? He gave the only answer a reasonable person could give- I don't know.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2004-09-23 11:27am

And why not a no? Forget about Bush; the reasons we'll never have a draft in this country again (unless we get involved in a WWII-level conflict) have nothing to do with him. Quite frankly it would have been better for him to say no unambiguously, because this little gaffe could lead to an embarrassing interview question at some point in the future.

Post by **Vympel** » 2004-09-23 11:32am

It's not a gaffe at all- Kerry specifically makes reference to Iran and North Korea, if an armed conflict were to start with either, the US simply wouldn't have the men, it's that simple. This isn't 1945. Iraq, in terms of relative level of commitment, is a Vietnam-level conflict. Think of it as inflation for the military.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2004-09-23 11:46am

If we don't have the men, we don't have the men - period. Drafting a bunch of kids who it would take almost 2 years to turn into professional soldiers isn't going to solve that in a timely manner. There is no way the U.S. military can realistically reinstate the draft, regardless of what happens. And unless John Kerry seriously thinks a land war with either country is a real possibility at this point, I don't see how this statement is justified.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2004-09-23 11:54am

Besides, all this assumes that there's a shortage of people willing to join the military - there isn't. Even if Congress decided to increase the size of the military, current enlistment and reenlistment rates would be enough to meet manpower requirements.

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2004-09-23 12:03pm

Maybe I'm missing something, but he's not saying that he does think there will be a draft if Bush gets re-elected, he says that he didn't know. Which is actually the truth; he doesn't.

Talon Karrde · Post by **Talon Karrde** » 2004-09-23 12:17pm

"If George Bush were to be re-elected, given the way he has gone about this war and given his avoidance of responsibility in North Korea and Iran and other places, is it possible? I can't tell you." Your right, he doesn't exactly come out and say, "Yes! He will re-instate it." But he incinuates (sp) that it is a very good possibility to incite fear among voters.

Post by **Beowulf** » 2004-09-23 12:24pm

Gil Hamilton wrote:Maybe I'm missing something, but he's not saying that he does think there will be a draft if Bush gets re-elected, he says that he didn't know. Which is actually the truth; he doesn't.

The possibility of the draft being reinstated can be entirely discounted, because the military doesn't want it. It takes too long to train people, and the numbers that we actually need would result in extremely unfair situations.

Also, it's a proven fact that an all-volunteer army is better than a conscript one. Why do you think the Russia is slowly moving to a volunteer army?

You know who are the sponsors of the current bill in Congress to reinstate the draft are? Democrats, every one of them...

theski · Post by **theski** » 2004-09-23 12:46pm

Beowulf wrote:
Gil Hamilton wrote:Maybe I'm missing something, but he's not saying that he does think there will be a draft if Bush gets re-elected, he says that he didn't know. Which is actually the truth; he doesn't.
The possibility of the draft being reinstated can be entirely discounted, because the military doesn't want it. It takes too long to train people, and the numbers that we actually need would result in extremely unfair situations.

Also, it's a proven fact that an all-volunteer army is better than a conscript one. Why do you think the Russia is slowly moving to a volunteer army?

You know who are the sponsors of the current bill in Congress to reinstate the draft are? Democrats, every one of them...

Of course they are Dems.. then they can turn around and yell DRaft Draft.. or Budget cuts... Budget cuts.. Fear is there only thing they have to offer.. never hope or optimisum..

WASHINGTON, D.C. – U.S. Sen. Fritz Hollings last night introduced the Universal National Service Act of 2003, a bill to reinstate the military draft and mandate either military or civilian service for all Americans, aged 18-26. The Hollings legislation is the Senate companion to a bill recently introduced in the House of Representatives by Rep. Charles Rangel (D-N.Y.) and Rep. John Conyers (D-Mich.).

http://hollings.senate.gov/~hollings/pr ... 08C06.html

Korvan · Post by **Korvan** » 2004-09-23 01:52pm

The best part of that article has to be this...

Noting that the campaign Tuesday night neared Disney's "fantasy land" in Orlando, Fla., Kerry said: "The difference between George Bush and me is that I drove by it. He lives in it."

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2004-09-23 02:18pm

Gil Hamilton wrote:Maybe I'm missing something, but he's not saying that he does think there will be a draft if Bush gets re-elected, he says that he didn't know. Which is actually the truth; he doesn't.

Sure, but he also does his best to give the impression that Bush is likely to try and reinstate the draft. Which is to say the least, about as likely as Bush getting up and proclaiming his love of Satan at the next State of the Union.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2004-09-23 02:23pm

Stormbringer wrote:
Gil Hamilton wrote:Maybe I'm missing something, but he's not saying that he does think there will be a draft if Bush gets re-elected, he says that he didn't know. Which is actually the truth; he doesn't.
Sure, but he also does his best to give the impression that Bush is likely to try and reinstate the draft. Which is to say the least, about as likely as Bush getting up and proclaiming his love of Satan at the next State of the Union.

Holy shit, people playing politics in an election year. Pardon me while I fall over and die from the shock of this surprise.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2004-09-23 02:31pm

SirNitram wrote:
Stormbringer wrote:
Gil Hamilton wrote:Maybe I'm missing something, but he's not saying that he does think there will be a draft if Bush gets re-elected, he says that he didn't know. Which is actually the truth; he doesn't.
Sure, but he also does his best to give the impression that Bush is likely to try and reinstate the draft. Which is to say the least, about as likely as Bush getting up and proclaiming his love of Satan at the next State of the Union.
Holy shit, people playing politics in an election year. Pardon me while I fall over and die from the shock of this surprise.

I'll call an ambulance.

But seriously, this shouldn't surpise any one and I've got to say it doesn't suprise me. The Democrats have been trying to raise the spectre of the draft for a good while now. They're just being out fear-mongered by the Republican party.

What I fund some what suprising is how some one can take that speech as anything but blatant politics. Sure Kerry doesn't have a magic crystal ball but like any intelligent, informed individual he's fully capable of understanding that the draft is dead and with good reason.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2004-09-23 02:35pm

Stormbringer wrote:What I fund some what suprising is how some one can take that speech as anything but blatant politics. Sure Kerry doesn't have a magic crystal ball but like any intelligent, informed individual he's fully capable of understanding that the draft is dead and with good reason.

I agree. Any informed, intelligent individual will see that the draft is never coming back.

So, I figure Kerry's little quip affected a good eighty, ninety percent of the electorate.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2004-09-23 02:53pm

SirNitram wrote:I agree. Any informed, intelligent individual will see that the draft is never coming back.

So, I figure Kerry's little quip affected a good eighty, ninety percent of the electorate.

Yeah, whatever.

The simple fact is that most people are smart enough to realize that no one wants the draft around. And for all Kerry's deliberately crafted bullshit the average voter is probably smart enough to fall for it. Only the moronic peaceniks are likely to get suckered by this ploy.

If by some faint miracle it does matter, all Bush needs to do is point to Democratic efforts to reinstate the draft and then let the fall out happen.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2004-09-23 02:54pm

Stormbringer wrote:
SirNitram wrote:I agree. Any informed, intelligent individual will see that the draft is never coming back.

So, I figure Kerry's little quip affected a good eighty, ninety percent of the electorate.

Yeah, whatever.

Do they not have senses of humour on your planet?

Honestly, how many people anywhere are informed and intelligent? Not as many as we'd like to think.

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2004-09-23 02:56pm

I wouldn't be so quick to completely dismiss the idea of a conscription army returning. While it would be a political hardship to do so, if the US was hit by another terrorist attack the size of 9/11 and the public demanded vengeance on Iran or another Islamic nation, the leadership might have no choice but to reinstate the draft and they would have the backing of the public to do it. I admit it isn't likely, but it's a possible scenario.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2004-09-23 02:57pm

SirNitram wrote:Do they not have senses of humour on your planet?

Honestly, how many people anywhere are informed and intelligent? Not as many as we'd like to think.

Yes we do.

Of course the fact is you've got the sanctimonous arrogance down pat so it's often hard to tell.

And I think that a lot of Americans aren't as informed as they should be. But I think you seriously underestimate them if you think ploys as stupid as this one are going to work.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2004-09-23 02:59pm

The Kernel wrote:I wouldn't be so quick to completely dismiss the idea of a conscription army returning. While it would be a political hardship to do so, if the US was hit by another terrorist attack the size of 9/11 and the public demanded vengeance on Iran or another Islamic nation, the leadership might have no choice but to reinstate the draft and they would have the backing of the public to do it. I admit it isn't likely, but it's a possible scenario.

Frankly, in any situation that had public support for the draft, the enlistment rate would be sky rocketing long before.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2004-09-23 02:59pm

Stormbringer wrote:
SirNitram wrote:Do they not have senses of humour on your planet?

Honestly, how many people anywhere are informed and intelligent? Not as many as we'd like to think.
Yes we do.

Of course the fact is you've got the sanctimonous arrogance down pat so it's often hard to tell.

Trust me, it's more the rod rammed firmly up your ass.

And I think that a lot of Americans aren't as informed as they should be. But I think you seriously underestimate them if you think ploys as stupid as this one are going to work.

Why not? They fell for 'IRAQ-AL-QEADA, THERE IS A CONNECTION! HONEST!'. Again. Anyone informed and intelligent dismissed it. Didn't stop the majority from buying into it.

But hey. You can rant and rave about how it's me being a bad man if that helps you sleep at night.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2004-09-23 03:01pm

SirNitram wrote:Why not? They fell for 'IRAQ-AL-QEADA, THERE IS A CONNECTION! HONEST!'. Again. Anyone informed and intelligent dismissed it. Didn't stop the majority from buying into it.

Which was a hell of lot better done than the pathetic draft fearmonger, I'll tell you that much.

SirNitram wrote:But hey. You can rant and rave about how it's me being a bad man if that helps you sleep at night.

I don't think you're a bad man. Just an arrogant and dismissive as hell one.

Post by **Beowulf** » 2004-09-23 03:04pm

The Kernel wrote:I wouldn't be so quick to completely dismiss the idea of a conscription army returning. While it would be a political hardship to do so, if the US was hit by another terrorist attack the size of 9/11 and the public demanded vengeance on Iran or another Islamic nation, the leadership might have no choice but to reinstate the draft and they would have the backing of the public to do it. I admit it isn't likely, but it's a possible scenario.

Even then, we wouldn't need a draft. Lowering certain restrictions would allow many more people to join, and increasing allowed reenlistment rates would provide a larger cadre. We're rejecting people for having too big of feet.

We don't need a draft to raise enough people to do such a thing.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2004-09-23 03:05pm

Stormbringer wrote:
SirNitram wrote:Why not? They fell for 'IRAQ-AL-QEADA, THERE IS A CONNECTION! HONEST!'. Again. Anyone informed and intelligent dismissed it. Didn't stop the majority from buying into it.
Which was a hell of lot better done than the pathetic draft fearmonger, I'll tell you that much.

Why am I arrogant and dismissive? Statements like this.

What makes it so much better done, exactly? The mindless repetition or the plausible deniability?

SirNitram wrote:But hey. You can rant and rave about how it's me being a bad man if that helps you sleep at night.
I don't think you're a bad man. Just an arrogant and dismissive as hell one.

I think you're hopelessly caught up in a need to think the average guy is intelligent, and get to be a pissy bitch when someone doesn't sing your tune. Sorry, Storm. The expanding influence of the Religious Right, the sheep-like beleif of such silly things as 'Saddam was responsible for 9/11!'(Love that survey, really do, sums up so much about the human race).

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2004-09-23 03:22pm

The draft isn't anything to worry about. The administration still has plenty of reservists to shit on before it would come even close to getting that desperate.