Female hostages murdered

[Julhelm]

It's funny how we can all read about domestic abuse, gangrapes and the such (which all occurs in our own countries on a disturbingly regular basis) in our everyday newspaper without bothering too much about it, but once a couple of women are beheaded in bumshit Iraq the world falls apart and we're outraged at this barbarism.

[Trytostaydead]

It's funny how we can all read about domestic abuse, gangrapes and the such (which all occurs in our own countries on a disturbingly regular basis) in our everyday newspaper without bothering too much about it, but once a couple of women are beheaded in bumshit Iraq the world falls apart and we're outraged at this barbarism.

Point. Or God knows how many Iraqi women were killed in Operation Shock and Awe. But sadly, the truth is everything is relative.

I wonder how many here shed a tear when 800,000 rwandans were slaughtered and the rivers clogged with bodies, or just tsk'ed when they saw the pictures on TIME magazine but then were filled with outrage after the first images of US contractors hanging burned from the bridges? Relativity.

And yeah, equality and whatever.. there's still a deeply ingrained revulsion to put women (especially caring attractive ones) in harms ways!

[Admiral Valdemar]

It's funny how we can all read about domestic abuse, gangrapes and the such (which all occurs in our own countries on a disturbingly regular basis) in our everyday newspaper without bothering too much about it, but once a couple of women are beheaded in bumshit Iraq the world falls apart and we're outraged at this barbarism.

Point. Or God knows how many Iraqi women were killed in Operation Shock and Awe. But sadly, the truth is everything is relative.

I wonder how many here shed a tear when 800,000 rwandans were slaughtered and the rivers clogged with bodies, or just tsk'ed when they saw the pictures on TIME magazine but then were filled with outrage after the first images of US contractors hanging burned from the bridges? Relativity.

And yeah, equality and whatever.. there's still a deeply ingrained revulsion to put women (especially caring attractive ones) in harms ways!

Hmm, Rwandans, reminds me of a quote from a certain recent movie.

Julhelm has a good point though. The media will select certain sob stories to best manipulate the masses, a child starving in shithole #1 here, a woman raped in shithole #2 and so on. This sort of stuff and more occurs in our own states and yet we simply push for better policing and harsher punitive terms, not the carpet bombing of a city.

[Stormbringer]

Well the small number of terrorists who this kind of despicable acts really dont represent Islam. They are a minority. Most muslims are opposed to terrorism.

The by all means point out where the hell these near-mythical people are. Because right now it seems to vast majority of the Islam in the Middle East is composed of frothing at the mouth fanatics. Not terrorists maybe, but they're certainly not speaking or acting against them if they actually oppose it. And that seems a hell of a lot like a go ahead to me.

Furthermore many of the acts terrorists do violate the teachings of the Prophet. They do stuff like suicide bombing when the very act of suicide if forbidden in Islam.

Please point out where and how any possible reference negates the plentiful calls to violence and holy war.

Islam condemns this in the same sense Christianity condemns the Crusades, when you ignore large parts of the work and squint a bit at the rest.

[Stormbringer]

It's funny how we can all read about domestic abuse, gangrapes and the such (which all occurs in our own countries on a disturbingly regular basis) in our everyday newspaper without bothering too much about it, but once a couple of women are beheaded in bumshit Iraq the world falls apart and we're outraged at this barbarism.

Because quite frankly over here domestic abuse is illegal, not legally endorsed, and woman has the right to her own body, not the least the right not to be raped whenever her husband feels like it. And you'd better believe that in most cities in the West if stuff like that, never mind gruesome murder, happens then we try to actually track down and punish the guilty. Over there it's considered perfectly acceptable and a cultural norm for these fundamentalist shitheads; here they're damn serious crimes. That alone makes a huge difference.

[Mutant Headcrab]

Well the small number of terrorists who this kind of despicable acts really dont represent Islam. They are a minority. Most muslims are opposed to terrorism.

Furthermore many of the acts terrorists do violate the teachings of the Prophet. They do stuff like suicide bombing when the very act of suicide if forbidden in Islam.

Then why isn't the rest of the islamic world openly condemning this minority? Why the resounding silence from muslim communities?

[theski]

Well the small number of terrorists who this kind of despicable acts really dont represent Islam. They are a minority. Most muslims are opposed to terrorism.

Furthermore many of the acts terrorists do violate the teachings of the Prophet. They do stuff like suicide bombing when the very act of suicide if forbidden in Islam.

Then why isn't the rest of the islamic world openly condemning this minority? Why the resounding silence from muslim communities?

You mean the "Religion of Peace"

[PainRack]

Then why isn't the rest of the islamic world openly condemning this minority? Why the resounding silence from muslim communities?

Define resounding silence, when month after month, either a speech by a political or religious leader talks about the need to fight against terrorism, or the hijacking of Islam by militants, or even outright condemnation of their tactics. Define resounding silence, when such issues were even raised at the OIC.

[Korvan]

If it was my country that had been invaded, I don't think I'd be sheading too many tears if bad things happened to the invaders and their collaberators. I bet the french resistance offed a few german contractors in their time. Now, they didn't do it by beheading and then release a tape, it was more likely a shot, or knife in the dark. But dead's still dead.

For those of you who are decrying the lack of protest over these events, did any of you raise crys of protest over civilian casaulties in this invasion? Dead's still dead, whether you're beheaded by a madman with a knife or a piece of flying shrapnel from an airstrike down the block.

If it was your country that had been invaded, would you limit your resistance to futile attacks against heavily fortified military positions, or would you attack any and all targets that present themselves?

Sun Tzu's art of work reccomends that when your enemy is protected by walls of stone, to attack soft targets to encourage your enemy to leave their fortifications.

My post above sort of assumes there are only two sides in this conflict, which is definately a false assumution. Who knows how many differing factions are involved? It certainly muddies things up if the people doing the resisting are themselves outside agitators.

[Julhelm]

Because quite frankly over here domestic abuse is illegal, not legally endorsed, and woman has the right to her own body, not the least the right not to be raped whenever her husband feels like it. And you'd better believe that in most cities in the West if stuff like that, never mind gruesome murder, happens then we try to actually track down and punish the guilty. Over there it's considered perfectly acceptable and a cultural norm for these fundamentalist shitheads; here they're damn serious crimes. That alone makes a huge difference.

Bad enough for the perps to get away clean when it's argued in court that the woman didn't scream "no" or fight back enough.

And like hell the woman here has a right to her own body when we've never had so many cases of anorexia as these days, and when pre-teen girls start dressing like whores to look sexy, or when 9 out of 10 grade school girls get called "whores", "sluts" or "bitches" on a daily basis along with attempted rapes/sexual harassment in school.

[RedX]

If it was my country that had been invaded, I don't think I'd be sheading too many tears if bad things happened to the invaders and their collaberators. I bet the french resistance offed a few german contractors in their time. Now, they didn't do it by beheading and then release a tape, it was more likely a shot, or knife in the dark. But dead's still dead.

The comparisons you make are... rather offensive, in my opinion. First, the United States is not Nazi germany in any way, shape, or form. Second, Iraq is not France, by about the same margin. Third, a knife in the dark, while certainly not a good thing, is simply a dead man; publicly broadcasting the brutal murder of an innocent man for political gain is abhorrant.

For those of you who are decrying the lack of protest over these events, did any of you raise crys of protest over civilian casaulties in this invasion?

The few that happened were quite regrettable. We hear criticisms of it all the time, from all sides of the American political spectrum. Unlike these barbarians, however, we avoided them- and are STILL avoiding them!- to such a degree that it places us at something of a disadvantage.

Dead's still dead, whether you're beheaded by a madman with a knife or a piece of flying shrapnel from an airstrike down the block.

An airstrike down the block wasn't aimed at you with the express intent of getting other people to do what the stiker wants. It was aimed at those other people. Collateral damage is not a good thing, but intentional attacks on civilians are much, much worse.

If it was your country that had been invaded, would you limit your resistance to futile attacks against heavily fortified military positions, or would you attack any and all targets that present themselves?

I would say that noncombatent contractors there to fix my country up aren't targets in the first place, and limit my attacks to military targets.

Sun Tzu's art of work reccomends that when your enemy is protected by walls of stone, to attack soft targets to encourage your enemy to leave their fortifications.

So now intentional massacre of civilians is required in the name of military expediancy? That's... ahem. Not a position that I can imagine anyone taking.

My post above sort of assumes there are only two sides in this conflict, which is definately a false assumution. Who knows how many differing factions are involved? It certainly muddies things up if the people doing the resisting are themselves outside agitators.

Of course. Then again, we're not blaming the Iraqi people here; we're blaming the nutjobs they seem to have lumping all over them, from inside and outside Iraq. The sheer number of Iraqis getting killed by these nuts is proof enough that they're entirely deserving of a long-term elimination campaign- one that makes every effort to perserve civilian life.

Unlike those monsters, who think innocent lives are just another bargaining chip.

[Stormbringer]

Bad enough for the perps to get away clean when it's argued in court that the woman didn't scream "no" or fight back enough.

It is bad. That doesn't mean it's anywhere the same level as woman not having the right to say no in the first place.

And like hell the woman here has a right to her own body when we've never had so many cases of anorexia as these days, and when pre-teen girls start dressing like whores to look sexy, or when 9 out of 10 grade school girls get called "whores", "sluts" or "bitches" on a daily basis along with attempted rapes/sexual harassment in school.

Women having body issues is still a far, far cry from getting stoned to death for not wearing your burkka.


It's good to see you've mastered the art of the red herring. Keep up the trolling, I'm sure it'll serve you well in your increasingly breif stay here.

[Stormbringer]

Then why isn't the rest of the islamic world openly condemning this minority? Why the resounding silence from muslim communities?

Define resounding silence, when month after month, either a speech by a political or religious leader talks about the need to fight against terrorism, or the hijacking of Islam by militants, or even outright condemnation of their tactics. Define resounding silence, when such issues were even raised at the OIC.

And who among them are members of the Middle East Muslim community?

[Korvan]

If it was my country that had been invaded, I don't think I'd be sheading too many tears if bad things happened to the invaders and their collaberators. I bet the french resistance offed a few german contractors in their time. Now, they didn't do it by beheading and then release a tape, it was more likely a shot, or knife in the dark. But dead's still dead.

The comparisons you make are... rather offensive, in my opinion. First, the United States is not Nazi germany in any way, shape, or form. Second, Iraq is not France, by about the same margin. Third, a knife in the dark, while certainly not a good thing, is simply a dead man; publicly broadcasting the brutal murder of an innocent man for political gain is abhorrant.

Hey RedX, didn't mean to offend ya and didn't mean to compare the US to Nazi Germany. I was trying to point out that a populace isn't likely to shead tears over bad shit happening to the invaders. The french resistance was just an example as I'm somewhat familier with it.

Dead's still dead, whether you're beheaded by a madman with a knife or a piece of flying shrapnel from an airstrike down the block.

An airstrike down the block wasn't aimed at you with the express intent of getting other people to do what the stiker wants. It was aimed at those other people. Collateral damage is not a good thing, but intentional attacks on civilians are much, much worse.

Right, but if it was one of your family members that became clateral damage, I don't think the intent to the attack is a big concern. Wasn't the whole point of the "Shock and Awe" campaign designed " with the express intent of getting other people to do what the stiker wants", i.e. surrender without a fight? I'm not sure how many civilians died in those strikes, but I'd imagine it is greater than the total # of dead hostages so far.

If it was your country that had been invaded, would you limit your resistance to futile attacks against heavily fortified military positions, or would you attack any and all targets that present themselves?

I would say that noncombatent contractors there to fix my country up aren't targets in the first place, and limit my attacks to military targets.

That's one way of looking at it, but it isn't the point of view of the hostage takers. Their view is likely that the contractors and providing aid to the enemy by stabalizing the collbertist government. In a lot of the hostage takings, the demands were pretty clear... You're not wanted here. Get out!

Sun Tzu's art of work reccomends that when your enemy is protected by walls of stone, to attack soft targets to encourage your enemy to leave their fortifications.

So now intentional massacre of civilians is required in the name of military expediancy? That's... ahem. Not a position that I can imagine anyone taking.?

But that position is being taken now and has been taken many, many times in the past. In war, the end often does justify the means. Which is why I personally advocate that war should be avoided as much as possible

My post above sort of assumes there are only two sides in this conflict, which is definately a false assumution. Who knows how many differing factions are involved? It certainly muddies things up if the people doing the resisting are themselves outside agitators.

Of course. Then again, we're not blaming the Iraqi people here; we're blaming the nutjobs they seem to have lumping all over them, from inside and outside Iraq. The sheer number of Iraqis getting killed by these nuts is proof enough that they're entirely deserving of a long-term elimination campaign- one that makes every effort to perserve civilian life.

Unlike those monsters, who think innocent lives are just another bargaining chip.

My post was mostly directed at those who definately seemed to be blaming the Iraqi people and other muslims. The whole nuke 'em all statements get under my skin a bit.

[Durandal]

Durandal, this all started when Mike did that stupid as fuck statement:

The same way we're supposed to believe that Christianity is a religion of peace after Hitler and the Nazis

I command you to go read The Order of the Death's Head by Heinz Höhne, it goes into very detailed reading about Religion in the SS.

But what about Hitler's religion? He was undoubtedly a Christian. How else do you explain his claims to be doing God's work by exterminating the Jews? He was also inspired by Martin Luther's writings, which were (surprise!) Christian-based anti-semitic.

And from my understanding, he wasn't exactly micromanaging his secret police force. It's perfectly conceivable that the SS had different religious beliefs while Hitler himself was a Christian who believed that God wanted him to kill the Jews.

[Durandal]

Well the small number of terrorists who this kind of despicable acts really dont represent Islam. They are a minority. Most muslims are opposed to terrorism.

Are there polls in that region to back this up? Because when I see crowds of Muslims dancing in the streets whenever thousands of people on our side of the pond die, I tend to think the opposite.

At the end of the day, no one over there is shedding any tears over Americans and Westerners being killed. And why would they? We represent everything that is evil to them.

Furthermore many of the acts terrorists do violate the teachings of the Prophet. They do stuff like suicide bombing when the very act of suicide if forbidden in Islam.

Yeah, and how does this change the explicit quotations from the Qur'an saying that Allah will "bestow vast rewards on those who fight in religious wars"?

[Julhelm]

It is bad. That doesn't mean it's anywhere the same level as woman not having the right to say no in the first place.

Vast difference here between different muslim countries.

Women having body issues is still a far, far cry from getting stoned to death for not wearing your burkka.

Again, vast differences. You won't see women stoned to death in Kosovo, which is muslim, yet it's standard fare in Iran, which is also muslim.

It's good to see you've mastered the art of the red herring. Keep up the trolling, I'm sure it'll serve you well in your increasingly breif stay here.

Why thank you sir. I hope it's as nice as seeing someone mastering the art of generalizing an entire religion into heartless killers who rape and behead women by law.

Maybe I should point out that your country wholeheartedly supports one of the worst offenders in said league, namely Saudi Arabia.

Or maybe I should just restate my original point, which is:

"It's disturbing that when western women are killed/raped by muslims, we're outraged, but at the same time we don't give half a shit about western women being killed/raped by western, christian men"

[Rye]

Are there polls in that region to back this up?

Well, if you'd consider someone like the pope or dalai lama representing a faith, then presumably, you'd count Grand Sheikh Mohammed Sayed Tantawi in there too. The majority of muslims aren't in the middle east anyway, Iunknown didn't say from that region either.

Yeah, and how does this change the explicit quotations from the Qur'an saying that Allah will "bestow vast rewards on those who fight in religious wars"?

Well, how can they fight in (the righteous side of)a religious war according to Allah if they ignore his prophet telling them suicide is a sin?

[Stormbringer]

It is bad. That doesn't mean it's anywhere the same level as woman not having the right to say no in the first place.

Vast difference here between different muslim countries.

Women having body issues is still a far, far cry from getting stoned to death for not wearing your burkka.

Again, vast differences. You won't see women stoned to death in Kosovo, which is muslim, yet it's standard fare in Iran, which is also muslim.

A point that might matter were we not talking about Middle East Islam.

It's good to see you've mastered the art of the red herring. Keep up the trolling, I'm sure it'll serve you well in your increasingly breif stay here.

Why thank you sir. I hope it's as nice as seeing someone mastering the art of generalizing an entire religion into heartless killers who rape and behead women by law.

Given that a good many Middle East Muslims support, and some actively fighting for, establishing Islamic law that allows them to do just that I don't see how it's an unfair generalization at all. Right now virtually every Muslim state in the Middle East and surrounding region has some version of Islamic law going; a code of laws that allows and even encourages this sort of barbarism.

Now why again why hell is what I'm saying wrong?

Maybe I should point out that your country wholeheartedly supports one of the worst offenders in said league, namely Saudi Arabia.

And where the hell is it that I excluded Saudi Arabia from the list of Middle Eastern fundamentalist shitholes?

Or maybe I should just restate my original point, which is:

"It's disturbing that when western women are killed/raped by muslims, we're outraged, but at the same time we don't give half a shit about western women being killed/raped by western, christian men"

And I'll point out to you, in the west that sort of abuse of women is not legal to begin with and is actively prosecuted whenever it's possible. Now tell me exactly how often is it treated in the same in the Middle East?

Because you're making the utterly moronic comparison between criminals that defy the laws of a society with a society that enshrines brutality and the opression of women as a basic point. How the hell your tiny brain can't figure out the difference I don't know.

[Julhelm]

Because you're making the utterly moronic comparison between criminals that defy the laws of a society with a society that enshrines brutality and the opression of women as a basic point. How the hell your tiny brain can't figure out the difference I don't know.

Because those two female workers had a choice of leaving or staying knowing that people are getting heads chopped off on a regular basis?

My point is that these women had a choice to stay in harm's way, and our everyday rape-victims do not, yet it's more upsetting to us that people who voluntarily stay in a dangerous and unstable region get killed, than women getting killed in our own society.

The fact that they get their heads chopped off by muslims is completely irrelevant for the point I'm trying to make.

[Bob the Gunslinger]

Why do we consider it worse that terrorists are beheading women rather than men?

Is this based on the idea that men are to keep women from harm, etc.?

Just a random thought.

Women are more vulnerable in many ways and the terrorists sometimes do more to them than just kill them. See the reports of what the terrorists did to the female students in the Russian school incident. That makes us all very mad and scared for the hostages.
Also, women are much less likely to be combatants, and are thus seen as more innocent, heightening the sense of injustice we feel when terrorists kill them.

[Bob the Gunslinger]

.

Julhelm has a good point though. The media will select certain sob stories to best manipulate the masses, a child starving in shithole #1 here, a woman raped in shithole #2 and so on. This sort of stuff and more occurs in our own states and yet we simply push for better policing and harsher punitive terms, not the carpet bombing of a city.

I don't know... I have often preached that sections Oakland and Berkeley should be carpet bombed, but then I had to live there so it is a personal thing. And I am always very outraged whenever I hear about anything like this happening anywhere, even my own state. I try to do what I can--I educate all of my female friends on how to defend themselves and I try to teach my male friends to respect women and their rights.

[Bob the Gunslinger]

Or maybe I should just restate my original point, which is:

"It's disturbing that when western women are killed/raped by muslims, we're outraged, but at the same time we don't give half a shit about western women being killed/raped by western, christian men"

I don't know where you get this idea from. I don't want any men to rape any women, or even any other men and I think I'm hardly the only one in the West with that viewpoint, too. In fact, I'm pretty sure this is why laws were made to stop that kind of thing and why we like to put rapists away for as long as possible, even (in the US) giving the death penalty to murderers who have raped their victims.

You are making up a hypocrisy that doesn't exist.

[Bob the Gunslinger]

Because those two female workers had a choice of leaving or staying knowing that people are getting heads chopped off on a regular basis?

My point is that these women had a choice to stay in harm's way, and our everyday rape-victims do not, yet it's more upsetting to us that people who voluntarily stay in a dangerous and unstable region get killed, than women getting killed in our own society.
The fact that they get their heads chopped off by muslims is completely irrelevant for the point I'm trying to make.

Emphasis mine. PROVE YOUR BULLSHIT! Right now you are just slandering us all without one shred of evidence, making claims that are ridiculous to anyone with even a passing familiarity with Western culture.

Just because you have a grudge against your homeland and can't get laid because you call women shallow bitches who go for assholes does not mean that you have a valid claim or even that you have any kind of reason on your side. You need to pull your self-righteous head out of your ass and look around from time to time.

[Julhelm]

Well it proves itself when this kind of thing gets major headlines, and the "normal" violence against women gets a few lines and not more, unless it's something particularily spectacular.

I don't have any grudges against my homeland sir. If I did, I most certainly wouldn't have voluntarily devoted my time to serve in the armed forces.

The only grudge I hold is towards everyday hypocrites who scream at the first outside enemy they can put their finger on, and then close their eyes at the shit on their own doorstep.