New Swift Ad coming out. Kerry doesn't care. Again.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2004-09-23 07:44pm

(CNN) -- The Vietnam veterans group behind a series of commercials attacking Sen. John Kerry's military record has released a new ad comparing him to Jane Fonda for meeting with North Vietnamese and Viet Cong officials during the Vietnam War.

The Democratic presidential nominee's campaign quickly dismissed the commercial as "junkyard politics."

The group Swift Boat Veterans for Truth said Wednesday that it planned to spend $1.3 million over the next week to run the 30-second commercial in five battleground states -- Ohio, Pennsylvania, West Virginia, Nevada and New Mexico -- and on national cable networks.

The latest salvo is the fourth anti-Kerry commercial from the group of Vietnam veterans who served on Navy swift boat patrols during that conflict, as Kerry did.

Claims about Kerry's war record in previous ads have been vigorously disputed by his campaign and in media reports and are at odds with official Navy records and eyewitness accounts.

Many of the group's financial backers are also donors to the Bush-Cheney campaign.

A former Bush campaign attorney gave the group legal advice, but it is not unusual for lawyers with expertise in election law to work for numerous clients. The Bush campaign and the Swift Boat Veterans insist they did not collaborate on the ads.

Trip to Paris
The latest ad, titled "Friends," accuses Kerry of "secretly meeting with enemy leaders in Paris," where the U.S. government was involved in off-and-on peace talks with the North Vietnamese.

"Even before Jane Fonda went to Hanoi to meet with the enemy and mock America, John Kerry secretly met with enemy leaders in Paris, though we were still at war and Americans were being held in North Vietnamese prison camps," the ad says.

Kerry made no secret of his trip to Paris, France, in the summer of 1970, either at the time or since. He even spoke about it during testimony before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee in 1971.

"I have been to Paris. I have talked with both delegations at the peace talks, that is to say the Democratic Republic of Vietnam and the Provisional Revolutionary Government," Kerry told the committee, referring to the North Vietnamese and Viet Cong delegations by their formal names.

At the time of the trip, Kerry was a 26-year-old decorated and discharged Navy lieutenant and an antiwar activist.

Kerry, a leader in the group Vietnam Veterans Against the War, told the committee he wanted elected officials, including President Nixon, to declare a cease-fire and set a date for a U.S. troop withdrawal.

Kerry said the North Vietnamese representatives indicated that "if the United States were to set a date for withdrawal, the [U.S.] prisoners of war would be returned."

The chairman of the committee, Democratic Sen. J. William Fulbright of Arkansas, told Kerry that Congress had "no capacity ... to go out and negotiate a cease-fire. We have to persuade the executive [the president] to do this for the country."

Kerry, the son of a career foreign service officer, replied that he understood.

"I realize that even my visits in Paris -- precedents had been set by Senator [Eugene] McCarthy and others [who had visited Paris] -- in a sense are on the borderline of private individuals negotiating," Kerry said.

U.S. law forbids private citizens from negotiating with foreign governments on matters such as peace treaties.

Peace movement
Kerry has told biographers and reporters that his 1970 trip to Paris was a fact-finding mission to the protracted and often stalemated peace talks.

The negotiations stretched for five years before Secretary of State Henry Kissinger and North Vietnamese leader Le Duc Tho signed accords in January 1973 providing for a U.S. withdrawal from South Vietnam and the release of American POWs.

John O'Neil, a longtime critic of Kerry's antiwar activities and one of the founders of the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, defended the latest ad.

"There is no record of what he did at the meeting. He met with the chief negotiators for the enemy. He had no right to do that as a private citizen. He had no right to do it as a naval officer," O'Neil said.

Pulitzer Prize-winning historian Stanley Karnow, who covered the Vietnam War as a journalist, said American peace activists, elected officials and diplomats frequently passed through Paris in those days.

"In the peace movement, there was all kinds of showboating. There were people who were frivolous; there were people who were serious," Karnow said. "You'd go over and listen to one of these [North Vietnamese] guys recite some propaganda. You didn't learn very much."

As for the swift boat group's allegation that Kerry met with the enemy, Karnow said, "Half the Washington press corps met with the enemy. We went to dinner with the enemy -- to get information. American officials certainly met with the enemy in the course of the talks."

Chad Clanton, a spokesman for the Kerry campaign, said the Swift Boat Veterans are "a group that has as much credibility as a tabloid magazine."

"The American people are tired of this kind of junkyard politics. They want an honest discussion about how we're going to clean up the mess in Iraq and strengthen our economy," he said.

Actress Jane Fonda earned the enmity of many veterans and the nickname "Hanoi Jane" when she traveled to Vietnam for two weeks in June 1972 and made propaganda statements for the North Vietnamese. She later apologized for her actions.

Fonda was a financial backer of Vietnam Veterans Against the War and spoke at the rally in Valley Forge, Pennsylvania, where Kerry made his first antiwar speech in September 1970.

Fonda has not seen the ad and declined to comment on it, spokeswoman Pat Kingsley said.

Earlier this year, Fonda told CNN that attempts to link Kerry to her to tarnish his reputation were "hogwash" and "a dirty, black propaganda tactic."

CNN's Abigail Brigham, Steve Brusk, Heather Riley and Shirley Zilberstein contributed to this report.

So, am I reading that right? Is Kerry not going to respond AGAIN to this attack, after watching how successful the Bush team was in beating the CBS documents and watching their own poll numbers plummet in response to the original SBV's ad?

Post by **Beowulf** » 2004-09-23 07:51pm

Factual error: Kerry was not discharged until 1978.

CJvR · Post by **CJvR** » 2004-09-23 08:00pm

He is damned if he do and damned if he don't.

Argue and spend a week debating endlessly on nothing but the war, where he is weak.

Don't argue and the ads will stand unopposed, weakening him further on the war.

theski · Post by **theski** » 2004-09-23 10:01pm

CJvR wrote:He is damned if he do and damned if he don't.

Argue and spend a week debating endlessly on nothing but the war, where he is weak.

Don't argue and the ads will stand unopposed, weakening him further on the war.

Yep, Rove is a Genius

Talon Karrde · Post by **Talon Karrde** » 2004-09-24 01:48am

Question: Has anyone seen the new ad coming out against Bush that apparently tries to link him with Saudi interests?

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2004-09-24 01:53am

Talon Karrde wrote:Question: Has anyone seen the new ad coming out against Bush that apparently tries to link him with Saudi interests?

Fahrenheit 911?

Talon Karrde · Post by **Talon Karrde** » 2004-09-24 01:56am

Joe wrote:
Talon Karrde wrote:Question: Has anyone seen the new ad coming out against Bush that apparently tries to link him with Saudi interests?
Fahrenheit 911?

No, I'm serious. I believe I saw something on television about a new Democratic ad attacking Bush on special interests with the Saudis.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2004-09-24 01:56am

Linky

Sgt. Jack Gell poses with his family in August 1965 on the day he left for Vietnam. His wife, Rebecca, holds 13-month-old Carol. In front are Jay, 3, and Bonnie, 6.

Kerry smeared a hero: my dad

By CAROL CROWLEY
Published on: 09/20/04

Many of you believe dirty politics is the motivation of Vietnam veterans speaking out in opposition to John Kerry. Let me tell you the real motivation.

In the movie "We Were Soldiers," the story about the battle of the la Drang Valley in Vietnam in 1965, a young sergeant, Jack Gell, cried as he died, "Tell my wife I love her . . ." and my family relived the death of my dad. He told my mother in letters that he and those he served with believed they were doing the right thing, fighting to help a sovereign nation defend its freedom.

Before the movie was filmed, I heard my father's dying words from retired Lt. Gen. Hal Moore and journalist Joe Galloway, who were with him in the Valley of Death. I met Mel Gibson, who played Col. Moore in the movie, showing him family pictures and letters to help him learn the essence of these young men serving their country in a difficult time. Gibson said my father was a true hero.

I remember when the movie was released witnessing the healing of men and family members who clung to this story with a new pride after decades of being vilified. Finally, they talked about it. Finally, many were proud to be Vietnam veterans.

And then Kerry was nominated as a presidential candidate.

I don't blame Kerry for my father's death, and I don't much care if he shamelessly chased after medals. But I do care that when he returned from Vietnam he gave aid and comfort to the enemy while our soldiers were still dying. I care that he smeared my father and a generation of our armed forces with false charges of war crimes while posing himself as a hero. I care that Kerry's false charges encouraged our enemy who was pressuring our POWs in inhumane ways to confess to imaginary war crimes. I care that he went to Paris to meet with the Viet Cong in 1970 while still an officer in the Navy Reserve, returning to publicly advocate for their position and against America's position.

This isn't about politics. It's about honor and betrayal and protecting our country. And for me it is deeply personal, as it is for countless vets. Thirty-nine years later, my mother still cries on Nov 14. Thirty-nine years later, we miss my father every day. Thirty-nine years later, Kerry poses as a hero. As children of Vietnam veterans, many of us feel an unwelcome emotional strain as the arguments about what really happened in Vietnam are tugged back and forth, often by people who were not there. We deeply resent the suggestion that our fathers were war criminals as that theme inevitably seeps into the argument.

We are educated and grown. We have children of our own, some in the service. We know in our heart and soul the scars of war that will never go away. But we are not weak, and we will not be silent. I will stand with the Vietnam veterans who speak out, and the voice of my father will be heard through me.

As long as I have breath and Kerry seeks the office of president, I will speak out against him. Others like me are too many to count.

While we are dismissed as dirty politics, the truth is we would be doing the very same things if Kerry were a Republican. President Bush has never had anything to do with our opposition to Kerry, and if the president makes a personal appeal to us to stop, we cannot and will not do so, because there are some things that can never be forgiven, can never be forgotten. John Kerry is one of those things.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2004-09-24 02:02am

Shep, you should know better, you've undoubtedly fallen for yet another KKKarl Rove trap.

Sam Or I · Post by **Sam Or I** » 2004-09-24 02:19am

I don't like living in California, I don't get any of the political ads.

Elfdart · Post by **Elfdart** » 2004-09-24 04:38am

Oh boo fucking hoo, Shep. This exceptionally stupid woman either (a) never read or heard Kerry's testimony -so she doesn't know what the fuck she's talking about or (b) is a lying sack. Given the total saturation of her column with pure crabapple horseshit, it must be the latter.

I suspect her daddy just might have been a war criminal, given that when Kerry mentioned that some who served in Vietnam committed atrocities, this dumb cow thinks "Oh my GOD! He's talking about my Dad!". It never crossed my mind to think that either my father or my uncles who served might have committed war crimes. And if they did, they wouldn't have been stupid enough to say "Who me?".

Elfdart · Post by **Elfdart** » 2004-09-24 04:41am

Another thing. I think I know the real reason so many right-wingers hate Jane Fonda. It's because unlike their hero Dubya, she had the guts to go to Vietnam.

Frank Hipper · Post by **Frank Hipper** » 2004-09-24 05:59am

Elfdart wrote:Another thing. I think I know the real reason so many right-wingers hate Jane Fonda. It's because unlike their hero Dubya, she had the guts to go to Vietnam.

That's unabashed, unadulterated flamebait.

theski · Post by **theski** » 2004-09-24 06:58am

Elfdart wrote:Oh boo fucking hoo, Shep. This exceptionally stupid woman either (a) never read or heard Kerry's testimony -so she doesn't know what the fuck she's talking about or (b) is a lying sack. Given the total saturation of her column with pure crabapple horseshit, it must be the latter.

I suspect her daddy just might have been a war criminal, given that when Kerry mentioned that some who served in Vietnam committed atrocities, this dumb cow thinks "Oh my GOD! He's talking about my Dad!". It never crossed my mind to think that either my father or my uncles who served might have committed war crimes. And if they did, they wouldn't have been stupid enough to say "Who me?".

You mean like the "warcrimes Kerry has admitted to"??? is that what you are talking about..

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2004-09-24 07:27am

Elfdart wrote:Another thing. I think I know the real reason so many right-wingers hate Jane Fonda. It's because unlike their hero Dubya, she had the guts to go to Vietnam.

No we tend to hate her because she went to the enemy and propogandized on their behalf in the middle of a war and made baseless acccusations against all our troops. Hanoi Jane has been despised since then, Dubya has nothing to do with it.

But hey, why let the facts get in the way of a little delusion.

Glocksman · Post by **Glocksman** » 2004-09-24 09:13am

Elfdart wrote:Another thing. I think I know the real reason so many right-wingers hate Jane Fonda. It's because unlike their hero Dubya, she had the guts to go to Vietnam.

The original joke involved Bill Clinton.

It went something like this:

The only difference between Bill Clinton and Jane Fonda is that Jane Fonda went to Vietnam.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2004-09-24 09:36am

Elfdart wrote:I suspect her daddy just might have been a war criminal, given that when Kerry mentioned that some who served in Vietnam committed atrocities, this dumb cow thinks "Oh my GOD! He's talking about my Dad!". It never crossed my mind to think that either my father or my uncles who served might have committed war crimes. And if they did, they wouldn't have been stupid enough to say "Who me?".

Alright, Elfy, this is an incredible accusation to make about someone. Got anything whatsoever to back it up with?

Elfdart · Post by **Elfdart** » 2004-09-24 09:47am

I think it was Shakespeare who summed it up with:

"Methinks the lady doth protest too much."

theski · Post by **theski** » 2004-09-24 09:48am

Master of Ossus wrote:
Elfdart wrote:I suspect her daddy just might have been a war criminal, given that when Kerry mentioned that some who served in Vietnam committed atrocities, this dumb cow thinks "Oh my GOD! He's talking about my Dad!". It never crossed my mind to think that either my father or my uncles who served might have committed war crimes. And if they did, they wouldn't have been stupid enough to say "Who me?".
Alright, Elfy, this is an incredible accusation to make about someone. Got anything whatsoever to back it up with?

I can back up the Kerry war crimes...
His own words...

In an interview on NBC's "Meet The Press" last Sunday, Kerry was asked about statements he made about Vietnam War atrocities during an interview with the same program in 1971, when he was a leader in the antiwar movement:

"There are all kinds of atrocities, and I would have to say that, yes, yes, I committed the same kind of atrocities as thousands of other soldiers have committed, in that I took part in shootings in free-fire zones, I conducted harassment and interdiction fire, I used .50-caliber machine guns which were granted and ordered to use, which were our only weapon against people. I took part in search-and-destroy missions, in the burning of villages," Kerry said in 1971.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/04/ ... y.vietnam/

Elfdart · Post by **Elfdart** » 2004-09-24 10:06am

theski wrote:
Master of Ossus wrote:
Elfdart wrote:I suspect her daddy just might have been a war criminal, given that when Kerry mentioned that some who served in Vietnam committed atrocities, this dumb cow thinks "Oh my GOD! He's talking about my Dad!". It never crossed my mind to think that either my father or my uncles who served might have committed war crimes. And if they did, they wouldn't have been stupid enough to say "Who me?".
Alright, Elfy, this is an incredible accusation to make about someone. Got anything whatsoever to back it up with?
I can back up the Kerry war crimes...
His own words...
In an interview on NBC's "Meet The Press" last Sunday, Kerry was asked about statements he made about Vietnam War atrocities during an interview with the same program in 1971, when he was a leader in the antiwar movement:

"There are all kinds of atrocities, and I would have to say that, yes, yes, I committed the same kind of atrocities as thousands of other soldiers have committed, in that I took part in shootings in free-fire zones, I conducted harassment and interdiction fire, I used .50-caliber machine guns which were granted and ordered to use, which were our only weapon against people. I took part in search-and-destroy missions, in the burning of villages," Kerry said in 1971.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/04/ ... y.vietnam/

It looks like Kerry was wrong about what constituted a war crime back then. As one poster on these boards showed, using .50 calibre machineguns against infantry in and of itself is not a war crime. Neither is setting fire to buildings. If the buildings are housing the enemy or being used to store materiel, they can be destroyed. Same for S & D. A lot of us on these boards who insisted that using M2HBs against soldiers was a war crime ended up with egg on our faces.

But there is no doubt that gang-raping and slitting the throat of a 13-year-old (as men from Tiger Force Three did) is a war crime and so are the other atrocities described in the Winter Soldier investigations and elsewhere. The fact that douchebags still claim that these never happened -and that bringing them up slanders ALL veterans- just goes to show that neo-Nazis who claim the showers at Auschwitz were there for cleanliness aren't the only ones who are in denial. Or are just lying assholes.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2004-09-24 10:08am

Elfdart wrote:Winter Soldier investigations

Ah right; the same "investigation" which used people who were never
even near Vietnam at all as "credible witnesses'.

Elfdart · Post by **Elfdart** » 2004-09-24 10:17am

More evidence for why John O'Neil should be disbarred:

Article cited above wrote:John O'Neil, a longtime critic of Kerry's antiwar activities and one of the founders of the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, defended the latest ad.

"There is no record of what he did at the meeting. He met with the chief negotiators for the enemy. He had no right to do that as a private citizen. He had no right to do it as a naval officer," O'Neil said.

If Kerry actually did negotiate or come to an agreement with the Vietnamese, he would have been in violation of the Logan Act. However, "There is no record...". So how the fuck does this shyster know if Kerry negotiated anything with anyone in Paris? He doesn't and is once again pulling it out of his ass.

This guy got people to sign affidavits swearing to things that were false and which the knew were false. If the affidavits were worth the paper they were written on (rather than being phonier than O'Neil's hairpiece), they would be guilty of perjury and O'Neil of subornation of same. What a dick! Of course the Shit Boaters are so discredited, only Freikorps-types believe them anyway.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2004-09-24 10:24am

He's using KERRY'S OWN WORDS, you stupid fuck:

John Kerry wrote:"I have been to Paris. I have talked with both delegations at the peace talks, that is to say the Democratic Republic of Vietnam and the Provisional Revolutionary Government,"

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2004-09-24 10:24am

Master of Ossus wrote:Alright, Elfy, this is an incredible accusation to make about someone. Got anything whatsoever to back it up with?

He doesn't have shit, as usual. I fail to see why he should be retained
on this board if he's going to make these kinds of wild accusations
about everything, and everyone.

He's like a child with Tourettes syndrome shouting SHITCOCK.

Post by **Edi** » 2004-09-24 02:07pm

No different from you for the most part, Shep, just on the other side of the political spectrum.

While Elfdart may be spewing provocative things here, seems like many of the rightwingers here are incapable of dealing with hyperbole unless it's from their own side against the left. Many rightwingers on this board have said equally provocative things, yet I haven't seen calls for their banning.

Edi