Human attitudes towards droids

Sean Howard · Post by **Sean Howard** » 2004-09-24 01:26pm

I haven't read many of the books, I just have the movies to go by, but isn't it weird the way that humans treat droids?

Its like they can't decide whether they are really sentient or not, even though, in some cases, they clearly are. Like the restraining bolt thing... why would you need that if they are just programmable hardware that will do whatever you tell them? If there is a clear danger that they will run off or rebel, doesn't that kind of say that they are alive?

The other thing is how they are kind of ignored. They don't really seem to be treated as combatants or suspected of treachery. In ANH the stormtroopers aren't suspicious of them at all when they find them barricaded in that room.

Shouldn't there be droids that are independently wealthy and powerful, a force to be reckoned with in their own right, not simply the tools of humans? They are effectively immortal, and highly intelligent. It just seems like there would be a race of C3P0-esque droids that take no crap from anyone.

Is there anything like that in any of the books?

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2004-09-24 01:28pm

Memory wipes and a few protocols effectively end most Droid uprisings.

Literally SW does place certain loopholes to insure droids are only independent to a certain level.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2004-09-24 01:38pm

Ghost Rider wrote:Memory wipes and a few protocols effectively end most Droid uprisings.

That, and the one time there was a large Droid Uprising, it was put down by the Jedi. Like I told the OA moron when he insisted that Droids and Transhumans would rise up and replace galactic society, technology has bupkiss on the supernatural.

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2004-09-24 01:45pm

The main anger towards droids seen in the films, comes at a time where the galaxy´s seen massive droid armies bring destruction on countless worlds. Alot of the "common folk" may have misgivings towards droids because of this.

Then there´s the whole "disposable machines" mindset.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2004-09-24 01:53pm

VT-16 wrote:The main anger towards droids seen in the films, comes at a time where the galaxy´s seen massive droid armies bring destruction on countless worlds. Alot of the "common folk" may have misgivings towards droids because of this.

That's actually a good point I had not considered before and makes alot of sense, especially the attitude out by the rim.

GL in his commentary says that Threepio is programmed to feel compassion and that he just does it without understanding.

So unlike Data and his emotion chip, droids don't seem to be able to feel true emotion (absent examples from the EU)

Sean Howard · Post by **Sean Howard** » 2004-09-24 02:16pm

That, and the one time there was a large Droid Uprising, it was put down by the Jedi. Like I told the OA moron when he insisted that Droids and Transhumans would rise up and replace galactic society, technology has bupkiss on the supernatural.

Well, they don't necessarily have to take over. I just think that there would be colonies of free droids that leverage their immortality to become ultra-wealthy.

But it may be that they really aren't sentient after all, and wouldn't ever think to do this. Their programming could just be a complex sham designed to make them appear compassionate, fearful, etc.

But then if there was an uprising at some point, then there must be at least a few truly sentient ones manipulating all the rest. Actually, I guess the uprising could have been architected by a human for purposes unknown.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2004-09-24 02:50pm

Sean Howard wrote:Well, they don't necessarily have to take over. I just think that there would be colonies of free droids that leverage their immortality to become ultra-wealthy.

But how?

They get sent from owner to owner...and most recieve constant memory wiping.

Literally they go from clean slate to clean slate. Immortal is sorta pointless if you can't remember anything past a certain point.

Sean Howard · Post by **Sean Howard** » 2004-09-24 03:01pm

Ghost Rider wrote: Literally they go from clean slate to clean slate. Immortal is sorta pointless if you can't remember anything past a certain point.

R2D2 engineered his escape. There are also any number of legitimate ways a droid could wind up without an owner suddenly. I think that over time you'd have enough free ones running around, and if they truly were sentient, they'd gravitate towards one another, given the prevailing attitudes against them.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2004-09-24 03:08pm

Sean Howard wrote:
Ghost Rider wrote: Literally they go from clean slate to clean slate. Immortal is sorta pointless if you can't remember anything past a certain point.
R2D2 engineered his escape. There are also any number of legitimate ways a droid could wind up without an owner suddenly. I think that over time you'd have enough free ones running around, and if they truly were sentient, they'd gravitate towards one another, given the prevailing attitudes against them.

But also R2 next few owners have made it so he isn't mind wiped.

Galactic protocol as well as what is seen canon wise is that mindwiping is regular activity for any new droid and a constant.

You'd have to find more examples of free droids, because R2 is definitly a exception to the rule.

Sean Howard · Post by **Sean Howard** » 2004-09-24 03:15pm

Ghost Rider wrote:Galactic protocol as well as what is seen canon wise is that mindwiping is regular activity for any new droid and a constant.

You'd have to find more examples of free droids, because R2 is definitly a exception to the rule.

Hmm... so you're saying that any free droid will be either captured or killed before they can do much. If humans think that free droids are an abomination, that makes sense.

But then, they might not be aware of their free status. We see droids kind of running around doing their own thing, and they aren't really questioned about it.

I suppose the apathy towards droids might also be that people don't believe them to be sentient. I guess they'd know more than us -- they live with them constantly.

PainRack · Post by **PainRack** » 2004-09-24 03:25pm

Stravo wrote: GL in his commentary says that Threepio is programmed to feel compassion and that he just does it without understanding.

So unlike Data and his emotion chip, droids don't seem to be able to feel true emotion (absent examples from the EU)

Not really. The ANH novel, ghost-written by GL made it clear that Threepio does feel emotion. In TESB, it wasn't the first time that "oil got stuck in his eyes", or how in ANH, he offered to donate his circuits for R2, etc etc etc.

He does it without understanding is one thing, i mean, most of us don't know why the emotions we have are the way we have. Why do you love your wife instead of someone else? You know, stuff like that....

Hmm... so you're saying that any free droid will be either captured or killed before they can do much. If humans think that free droids are an abomination, that makes sense.

But then, they might not be aware of their free status. We see droids kind of running around doing their own thing, and they aren't really questioned about it.

I suppose the apathy towards droids might also be that people don't believe them to be sentient. I guess they'd know more than us -- they live with them constantly.

According to ANH, droids are programmed not to escape. Any attempt to do so would had been "illogical", and cause their minds to shut down. R2 was able to do so, because in his mind, he belonged to Obi-wan Kenobi, not Owen.

Sean Howard · Post by **Sean Howard** » 2004-09-24 03:40pm

PainRack wrote:According to ANH, droids are programmed not to escape. Any attempt to do so would had been "illogical", and cause their minds to shut down. R2 was able to do so, because in his mind, he belonged to Obi-wan Kenobi, not Owen.

Ok, what about this: a C3P0 type droid is walking around with his owner and the owner drops dead of a heart attack. Now what?

I just think in a gigantic galactic society with billions of droids running around, at least a small percentage will wind up ownerless just by chance.

Patrick Ogaard · Post by **Patrick Ogaard** » 2004-09-24 03:50pm

Ghost Rider wrote:
Sean Howard wrote:
Ghost Rider wrote: Literally they go from clean slate to clean slate. Immortal is sorta pointless if you can't remember anything past a certain point.
R2D2 engineered his escape. There are also any number of legitimate ways a droid could wind up without an owner suddenly. I think that over time you'd have enough free ones running around, and if they truly were sentient, they'd gravitate towards one another, given the prevailing attitudes against them.
But also R2 next few owners have made it so he isn't mind wiped.

Galactic protocol as well as what is seen canon wise is that mindwiping is regular activity for any new droid and a constant.

You'd have to find more examples of free droids, because R2 is definitly a exception to the rule.

Going by the books, such as Brian Daley's trilogy about Han Solo and Chewbacca, or the Lando Calrissian novels by another author whose name I can't recall, droids can be officially manumitted. Lando Calrissian's droid Vuffi-Raa gets manumitted (though it's ultimately a moot point, since Vuffi's parents eventually show up, and anyone trying to claim ownership in the face of Vuffi's parents is going to be sorry). Similarly, Han Solo's droids, the ancient labor droid Bollux, and the computer probe Blue Max, are both eventually officially manumitted and end up working at Rudrig University in the Tion Hegemony.

Manumission would certainly not be possible if the Galactic Empire found it impossible to accept sufficiently independent and intelligent droids as regular members of society.

Conversely, the Galactic Empire, and the Republic before it, had no problems with treating cloned humans as programmable organic war droids. It's not as if the clone troopers had a choice in their vocations, or any choices at all, everything being determined by their owners and manufacturers. A clone trooper that expressed a desire to become a lumberjack in British Columbia would have had its thinking "adjusted" by the Kaminoans as part of product quality control, just like any droid that was acting outside the parameters of its programming.

JME2 · Post by **JME2** » 2004-09-24 04:21pm

According to James Lucenco, the NJO was going to originally have this issue as a subplot, but due to time constraints and other factors, they were forced to drop it after his Agents of Chaos dugology.

Mange · Post by **Mange** » 2004-09-24 04:23pm

I think it's a way to distance themselves from technology. As GL points out, the droids are in the lowest position. To me, it seems as if the sentiment towards technology in the SW galaxy is rather ambivalent, one mustn't become controlled by technology, technology is just a tool. Thus the attitude towards droids.

PainRack · Post by **PainRack** » 2004-09-24 04:45pm

Sean Howard wrote: Ok, what about this: a C3P0 type droid is walking around with his owner and the owner drops dead of a heart attack. Now what?

I just think in a gigantic galactic society with billions of droids running around, at least a small percentage will wind up ownerless just by chance.

Probably bemoan how he has lost his purpose in life and dies...........

When a person dies, his assets are divided by the process of law. This probably will apply here, and the droid gets a new owner.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2004-09-25 03:07am

I always assumed the restraining bolt was a tool used by people who stole droids and sold them (like the Jawas), sort of like slave traders using chains to make sure their stolen "property" didn't escape before they could be sold.

Jean Paul · Post by **Jean Paul** » 2004-09-25 05:34am

Ender wrote:
Ghost Rider wrote:Memory wipes and a few protocols effectively end most Droid uprisings.
That, and the one time there was a large Droid Uprising, it was put down by the Jedi. Like I told the OA moron when he insisted that Droids and Transhumans would rise up and replace galactic society, technology has bupkiss on the supernatural.

Rubbish. AOTC.. 200 Jedi reduced to 12.. by droids.

There are 10K jedi total, there are trillions of droids. If there ever was a true droid uprising on the scale of a large SW human or alien nation, they'd steamroller over the Jedi fairly easily.

Actually, Greivous personally killed stacks of Jedi, and he isn't even force sensitive - he just has an incredibly fast, powerful, dextrous body - afforded him by droid technology, and with 3-4 light sabers, he cuts a swath through the Jedi ranks.

If the droids rebelled, and if they planned for a war with the Jedi and designed new droid models with the intelligence and physical aptitude specifically for that purpose (fighting jedi) and mass produced them, it's no contest - the Jedi Order would be crushed like a bug.

Properaly applied, technology rapes the supernatural (in SW anyways) like a 2 dollar whore.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2004-09-25 05:37am

Jean Paul wrote:
Ender wrote:
Ghost Rider wrote:Memory wipes and a few protocols effectively end most Droid uprisings.
That, and the one time there was a large Droid Uprising, it was put down by the Jedi. Like I told the OA moron when he insisted that Droids and Transhumans would rise up and replace galactic society, technology has bupkiss on the supernatural.
Rubbish. AOTC.. 200 Jedi reduced to 12.. by droids.

And how many droids?

Seriously think before opening your mouth.

There are 10K jedi total, there are trillions of droids. If there ever was a true droid uprising on the scale of a large SW human or alien nation, they'd steamroller over the Jedi fairly easily.

WHere did you get the numbers for the Jedi?

Actually, Greivous personally killed stacks of Jedi, and he isn't even force sensitive - he just has an incredibly fast, powerful, dextrous body - afforded him by droid technology, and with 3-4 light sabers, he cuts a swath through the Jedi ranks.

Nice that you have definite proof of this and are showing us as we speak

.

If the droids rebelled, and if they planned for a war with the Jedi and designed new droid models with the intelligence and physical aptitude specifically for that purpose (fighting jedi) and mass produced them, it's no contest - the Jedi Order would be crushed like a bug.

Nice to see blind supposition is king of the day.

So in light, you came up with a number out of your ass, do not dispute Ender's claim which is an EU fact, and just go "Can't happen because I say so!!!!"

Mark of intelligence there, sparky.

Kazuaki Shimazaki · Post by **Kazuaki Shimazaki** » 2004-09-25 08:45am

Stravo wrote:GL in his commentary says that Threepio is programmed to feel compassion and that he just does it without understanding.

He can feel compassion but he somehow does it without understanding. What kind of a distinction is that? It is like Lobot's silly statement in the BFC series which basically guarantees it is impossible to create a droid that is sentient.

Ghost Rider wrote:And how many droids?

Can't be more than a million. Most likely somewhere in the thousands that actually engaged them.

WHere did you get the numbers for the Jedi?

Isn't 10K the official number of Jedi Knights. IIRC, it is in TPM, but I'm not sure (I suppose it might be in the novel and I don't have it).

ice to see blind supposition is king of the day.

Actually, it is purely logical. Ignoring TK for a second, there are simply real limits to how fast a Jedi can move. The Force can strengthen and quicken him, but he's still in a physical body, which places limits on how fast he can move before he breaks something. The fact a Yuuzhan Vong warrior (strong and fast, but apparently not impossibly so within the organic range) can effectively challenge a Jedi places real upper limits on their strength (a Jedi can't read their minds or TK them directly, but they can still use the Force to enhance their own strength and get generic precog).

A Jedi also has the advantage of precog, which allows them to move their saber into position in time to block a blaster bolt. But with enough droids, eventually a situation would happen where there is no escape - two bolts will traverse the zone at the same time, and there is no way to counter both bolts with the limited speed available to him. The saber also cannot block wide area effects, such as sonic cannon, or even grenades.

As for TK, well, there are limits to how many you can TK when you are also struggling against a hail of blaster bolts.

A few top Jedi, like Yoda and his Jedi Council or Luke (say at the Master level) would be relatively safe from the human sized droid. They can casually rip little components from them. They can use Absorb/Dissipate for the blasters that slip through and possibly even erect a Force shield to block grenades and sonic cannon. But for the average Knight, his likely outcome would be like those at Geonosis if they are adequately outnumbered.

As for a fast, custom-built powerful droid against a Jedi, it is hardly inconceivable a average Jedi would lose. A Jedi Master like Qui-Gonn can hone his skills enough to alter dice without it looking un-natural. For the average Jedi, he would have been hard pressed to aim his TK while the other guy was shooting at him (like Boba Fett vs Obi Wan). Once the droid gets into the clinch (with a lightsaber) say he can present a insurmountable problem. His blade comes down. Yes, you can see it coming and how it is going to come 0.5 seconds in advance, but what can you do? Nothing if the blade's fast and hard enough:

1) You can block the blow, but if the strength's too high, your block will fail and the droid will press your own blade against your body.
2) You can 'slip' the blow to alter its direction, but that won't work well if the enemy's too fast with his blade - you won't alter the angle enough to avoid a crippling hit.
3) You can try to counter and hope your blade will reach first, but if the enemy's too fast, or encased in armor, he might finish his blow faster even with your 0.5 second time advantage.
4) You can try TK to move him, but are you sure you can calm yourself, 'lock up' the droid, set the mental pattern for TK or Force Push in your mind, and execute the move before his blade comes down?

That's pure principle, and the fact Darth Vader (Light or Dark, he's one of the top Force users around) can be challenged at all by a droid in SoTE training is a support for that principle. It is hard to say more because Ender has not presente d his episode and any details.

Black Admiral · Post by **Black Admiral** » 2004-09-25 08:51am

Ghost Rider wrote:WHere did you get the numbers for the Jedi?

The AOTC novel unless I'm mistaken.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2004-09-25 08:54am

You do know one small bit that taking into account that every droid is designed to take on a Jedi on the ground is literally illogical.

While a favored forte...does not mean their only battle ground.

Literally the droids lost because they were up against an opponent that unless they used overwhelming numbers as they did(200 vs THOUSANDS is a pathetic trade off) they losehorribly.

So please...I asked him to actually back his shit up as he essentially went

"Jedi lose because droids can just do numbers"

This also presumes that when the Jedi went to battle the droids they had no backup whatsoever and this was the Jedi Order ALONE vs the droids.

As for Jedi numbers...both only do mention thousands...perhaps I'm wrong and they mentiopn a specific number but I'd like confirmation...but more as to how many than anything else.

Kazuaki Shimazaki · Post by **Kazuaki Shimazaki** » 2004-09-25 09:17am

Ghost Rider wrote:Literally the droids lost because they were up against an opponent that unless they used overwhelming numbers as they did(200 vs THOUSANDS is a pathetic trade off) they losehorribly.

It is not that horrible when you consider there are only maybe 10K Jedi. If you can trade 50 humans for one Jedi demigod, as an Army commander, I bet you'd be THRILLED. Also remember most of them were 'merely' average droids that can be beaten by ordinary humans (look at the clones beating them despite being outnumbered about 5:1).

This also presumes that when the Jedi went to battle the droids they had no backup whatsoever and this was the Jedi Order ALONE vs the droids.

It is hard to say much about the circumstances of the battle, since Ender forgot to give a source, eliminating even the slim chance someone would have a copy of that esoteric tidbit.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2004-09-25 09:54am

Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote:
Ghost Rider wrote:Literally the droids lost because they were up against an opponent that unless they used overwhelming numbers as they did(200 vs THOUSANDS is a pathetic trade off) they losehorribly.
It is not that horrible when you consider there are only maybe 10K Jedi. If you can trade 50 humans for one Jedi demigod, as an Army commander, I bet you'd be THRILLED. Also remember most of them were 'merely' average droids that can be beaten by ordinary humans (look at the clones beating them despite being outnumbered about 5:1).

Actually I wouldn't.

Losing that many against one opponent would make me use less infantry and try for a more effective route of larger artillery.

50: 1 is not a good trade off unless I KNOW it's only 10+K of these folks running around.

Also a bit of nitpick...50 to 1 is if there was only 1000 Droids.

This also presumes that when the Jedi went to battle the droids they had no backup whatsoever and this was the Jedi Order ALONE vs the droids.
It is hard to say much about the circumstances of the battle, since Ender forgot to give a source, eliminating even the slim chance someone would have a copy of that esoteric tidbit.

Then we have two options.

Either droids are amongst the absolute worst combatants the galaxy has

or

The Jedi had help but were on the forefront of that particular offensive.

Kazuaki Shimazaki · Post by **Kazuaki Shimazaki** » 2004-09-25 10:04am

Ghost Rider wrote:Losing that many against one opponent would make me use less infantry and try for a more effective route of larger artillery.

True. I always thought the best anti-Jedi method is to spend a few people to just find out which city he's in, then crush the entire city with a 200GT TL blast - let's see how he Absorbs/Dissipates that!

50: 1 is not a good trade off unless I KNOW it's only 10+K of these folks running around.

Also a bit of nitpick...50 to 1 is if there was only 1000 Droids.

1000/200 = 5

The Jedi had help but were on the forefront of that particular offensive.

I'd pick this for now.