Fallacies you believed about OT

[Drooling Iguana]

Another kid thing. I remember arguing that Yoda was not actually an alien, that the Force had turned him from a human into whatever. Kind of like the Navigators from Dune.

I thought the same thing, but it was more along the lines of the Force keeping Yoda alive for 900 years, and his resulting form being the result of extreme old age. I thought that the Emporer was extremely old as well. Not as old as Yoda, but far older than any human could naturally be.

[Old Plympto]

Another kid thing. I remember arguing that Yoda was not actually an alien, that the Force had turned him from a human into whatever. Kind of like the Navigators from Dune.

Yeah, me too. Somehow or other I thought with the Force, if Luke could live to 900 years, and will end up looking like Yoda. Seriously.

[Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi]

I believed in the "Shield domes on an ISD" fallacy, a 160km DSII and 8km SSD, and fighters capable of taking Imperial capital ships, but that's all I can remember.

[Drooling Iguana]

I believed that Han fired first, that Luke's father was a cunning warrior and a good friend to Obi-Wan, that Yoda had been the Jedi master that instructed Obi-Wan, and that Anakin was already a great pilot when Obi-Wan first met him.

[Darth Garden Gnome]

I don't think the officer killed by the shrapnel was a fallacy, as much as it was not being able to actually see what he was being killed by. The best anyone could tell, it was shrapnel.

For me, we got the shield dome, the itty bitty DS2, the Ewoks all merry and joyful overcoming a nuclear holocaust.

[President Sharky]

8 km SSD, smaller Death Stars, and shield generator fallacies.

[The Silence and I]

I also thought Yoda was just a really really old human, and tha Luke could live that long too, especially with Yoda's: "When 900 years you reach, look as good, you will not."
Ditto with the Emperor, and I also thought Endor survived (until I actually started thinking about the movies as recordings of "actual" events).
That's all I can think of right now, my education was swift and I held few fallacies of my own making.

[Sarevok]

After watching ANH I thought the Empire was defeated because the Death Star was destroyed.

I thought the Executor was only 8 KM long

Also I mistakenly thought that the DS II was actualy the under repair hulk of the original DS.

And like many others I mistook the Endor fleet as the entire Imperial Armada.

[Lt. Dan]

For a while, I would not believe that any ewoks died and the one that dies on screen was just hurt.(Hey, I was five at the time.) Then some one told me that he had to have died and then The "One ewok" thing got me.

[Icehawk]

After just watching ESB again, I recalled something I used to think when I was just a kid: Those black suited security guards who drag captain Needa's body away, the ones, with black helmets that sorta look like the top part of Vaders helmet? I remember I used to think those were like his trainees/personal servants because of the helmets and black uniforms they wore.

Also I mistakenly thought that the DS II was actualy the under repair hulk of the original DS.

Lol, Same here, although that didnt last too long for me because after seeing ANH a few more times it was pretty clear their was nothing left to rebuild of the original one. But yeah the first few times when I saw ROTJ as a kid I thought that as well.

[Kurgan]

When I was young I thought that lightsabers were so "hot" they could actually disintegrate you. That's why I thought Obi-Wan disappeared in ANH when Luke's saber hit him.

Why was his robe still there? Well, it was fireproof. ; )

It wasn't until I'd seen all the films together a bunch of times then I didn't think about that anymore.

I also thought the ".5 past lightspeed" meant that Wars ships were slower than Trek ships. Keep in mind here that I didn't see ESB until years after I saw the other two (and even then I didn't see it many times until I got the SE's on video in 1997). Hyperspace seemed more like teleportation to me, so I just assumed that the ships were really slow normally. When I was a kid, my knowledge of Star Wars was mostly from seeing ROTJ hundreds of times at home on a really crappy record we got off tv, and what I read in kid's books. ; )

I believed a lot of the stuff people have mentioned, the fleet sizes, few Ewok deaths (agree on the full frame deal leading to the confusion with that one), the shield dome thing, bad stormtrooper aim, etc. I never thought about the "Endor Holocaust" until I read Saxton's page.

I assumed that the Emperor was a Jedi. I didn't really know anything about "the Sith" except that I'd heard that is what Vader was called. I thought I read that there was only one "Dark Lord of the Sith" at a time, and so I assumed it was some special title for Vader. I also assumed that the black uniform was somehow part of the office of Dark Lord. Obviously he had the breathing apparatus and robotics underneath, but I thought the black armor and helmet was an official uniform of some sort.

Also for awhile I thought that the Stormtroopers were cyborgs. I dunno why, because we clearly see Han and Luke with the suites on, but maybe I thought they were part robot underneath, like Vader, because of the robotic voices that the the heroes don't seem to have when they wore the armor.

Also I didn't see ESB in the theater, but at my cousin's house on home video. It was winter at the time and I guess the wampa made an impression on me because I had trouble sleeping that night. ; )

I also thought that Yoda was THE Jedi Master, as in, he trained ALL the Jedi (he was pretty old after all, he had the time!).

I believed that Han fired first, that Luke's father was a cunning warrior and a good friend to Obi-Wan, that Yoda had been the Jedi master that instructed Obi-Wan, and that Anakin was already a great pilot when Obi-Wan first met him.

I never foresaw anything in the prequels, like most people, either. ; )

I assumed the Empire had been around a really long time, and that's why Vader, Ben and the Emperor were old looking. When I saw ESB I thought that the Emperor looked like an alien, but since I had seen ROTJ so much I just chalked it up (even as a kid) up to budget limitations.

I thought Ben's lightsaber blade length actually shrunken indicating his saber energy chopped off by Vader.

Later on it turned into "Ben losing his advantage, or Force". Even after I watched TESB. (I kinda thought everyone had the Force, too)

...

Some other kiddie rumor:
A 4th movie called "Revenge of the Jedi" existed as a sequel, with Han dead.

Yeah, I thought the lightsaber gaffe with Obi-Wan's saber fizzling out (originally) was somehow tied to Vader's line about "your powers are weak old man" like the lightsaber strength as due to how powerful you were in the Force and Obi-Wan was weakening (again, not having seen ESB this was an easier mistake to make).

I remember hearing from my friends when I was a kid that there were "books that took place between the movies" and I also thought that Episodes I-III were books that were already out there that I just hadn't seen.

Also, this wasn't really a fallacy about the films, but I LOVED the Jabba the Hutt toy as a kid. He could wiggle his tail and knock the action figures down, AND if you opened up his throne, there was a big pit of bones and stuff you could put figures in. I realize now it was a simulation of the "rancor pit" in minature, but I thought it would have been cool if Jabba put people under his throne to torture them by farting on them or something (gotta love kid toilet humor!).

[Robert Treder]

When I first saw A New Hope, I thought that Darth Vader was the Emperor. When I saw Return of the Jedi, I didn't like the idea that Vader wasn't the biggest bad guy in the Empire.

Mind you, I was five years old, so much of the finer points of the story were over my head.

[Mad]

Yeah, I thought the lightsaber gaffe with Obi-Wan's saber fizzling out (originally) was somehow tied to Vader's line about "your powers are weak old man" like the lightsaber strength as due to how powerful you were in the Force and Obi-Wan was weakening (again, not having seen ESB this was an easier mistake to make).

Oddly enough, I've never made that connection. I always figured it was just the angle of the lightsaber making it look weird, because it only happened when the saber was in that angle as Obi-Wan was swinging it around.

On the other hand, I always thought Obi-Wan was spelled "OB1" until I read otherwise. Then I thought "that's a strange way to spell it..."

[Illuminatus Primus]

The EU makes it very clear that the domes are critical to protecting at least the bridge of the ISD. The new book clears things up showing how the domes work as duel use. Therefore the whole "shield dome fallacy" is nothing of the sort.

No, the "shield dome fallacy" is the Post Hoc Ergo Proper Hoc fallacy associated with the belief that because the A-Wings destroy the domes then they state the shields collapsed, that the domes generate shields.

This isn't Darkstar, where we name any position taken by our opponents as a "fallacy."

Doesn't matter if they power the shields or project them, once they are destroyed shield function will drop.

No, they won't. The shields will have to be down to destroy the domes in the first place. And moreover, ICS has shown us shield generators all over the surface of ships. Its possible the nearby domes and other projectors can compensate at the loss of a dome - especially only a single one, as in ROTJ.

NOW we do know that you have to get through the shields in the first place to destroy these. Typicaly this means the shields are outright destroyed, though we have evidence of shield holes being opened up and you can take advantage of that to.

The distinction between "down" and "weakened enough for fighter-wattage firepower to seep through" is functionally irrelevent. They're basically the same.

Its a minor weakness, but one it shares with all capitalships because once the shields go down good gunners can target the projectors/generators on any ship in an attempt to prevent the shields from reforming.

EGtW&T suggests projectors are easily replaced.

[Alyeska]

No, the "shield dome fallacy" is the Post Hoc Ergo Proper Hoc fallacy associated with the belief that because the A-Wings destroy the domes then they state the shields collapsed, that the domes generate shields.

This assumption isn't a bad one. EU material states that if shields are near overload they will form shield holes. It is entirely possible the SSDs shields were near overload and the A-Wings took advantage to knock out the Executors shields.

No, they won't. The shields will have to be down to destroy the domes in the first place. And moreover, ICS has shown us shield generators all over the surface of ships. Its possible the nearby domes and other projectors can compensate at the loss of a dome - especially only a single one, as in ROTJ.

If you had bothered to read my whole post before writing this you would have noted the fact that I already said the shields had to be down in order to destroy the projectors. Now in an ideal setting I could see nearby projectors taking the slack. But in the thick of the battle with the shields being stressed on multiple points this might not have been possible. Its also possible that the bridge deflector shields were in the process of being brought back up but the suicide A-Wing was extremely lucky.

The distinction between "down" and "weakened enough for fighter-wattage firepower to seep through" is functionally irrelevent. They're basically the same.

I did not say weakened enough for fighters to punch through. We have examples in the EU of shields being weakened to the point that actual holes in the shields form. Given the stress the Executor was under this isn't a bad interpretation of the events.

EGtW&T suggests projectors are easily replaced.

Surface mount projectors are not easily replaced. Furthermore that captains role their unshielded sides from view indicates they want to protect those sections while they try getting the shields up. Possibly protecting those sides from having their projectors outright blown up.

[Illuminatus Primus]

This assumption isn't a bad one. EU material states that if shields are near overload they will form shield holes. It is entirely possible the SSDs shields were near overload and the A-Wings took advantage to knock out the Executors shields.

That's simply changing terms when you examine the functional differences between what I said and what you did.

For a ship with the shield output of a main sequence star, weakening it to where fighter wattage gunfire will penetrate destructively is essentially no different than downing the shields entirely. The shields usefulness as a defensive barrier is gone. Only then can the domes be destroyed.

And we're talking about the original Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc fallacy, the one that created the shield dome shit, and before the EU material you cite - which is retroactively justifying the original fallacy.

If you had bothered to read my whole post before writing this you would have noted the fact that I already said the shields had to be down in order to destroy the projectors.

Yes, I know, but I was summarizing a litany of reasons why the EU shield interpretation was fucking stupid.

Now in an ideal setting I could see nearby projectors taking the slack. But in the thick of the battle with the shields being stressed on multiple points this might not have been possible.

Given that combat shielding is only raised in battle and any ability to do this would be useless unless they could do it in battle, you're basically saying no, its impossible, they can't do it.

I did not say weakened enough for fighters to punch through. We have examples in the EU of shields being weakened to the point that actual holes in the shields form. Given the stress the Executor was under this isn't a bad interpretation of the events.

Like I said, claiming the Executor is sustaining enough bleedthrough for fighters to blow shit up on her cortex, it makes no difference if the shields are outright "down" or not.

Surface mount projectors are not easily replaced.

Thank you for citing your evidence in a counterclaim.

Does it occur to you there are no examples of subsurface projectors?

Furthermore that captains role their unshielded sides from view indicates they want to protect those sections while they try getting the shields up.

Yeah, because projectors burn out; they're what soaks up the heat excess if the shields collapse. Same source.

Possibly protecting those sides from having their projectors outright blown up.

Or protecting those sides from being, y'know bombed to the bare hull?

[Sean Howard]

I thought the same thing, but it was more along the lines of the Force keeping Yoda alive for 900 years, and his resulting form being the result of extreme old age. I thought that the Emporer was extremely old as well. Not as old as Yoda, but far older than any human could naturally be.

A corollary to this is I thought that aliens couldn't be Jedi. I think this came from the "force powers not working on Jabba" thing.

[Sean Howard]

I just remembered another rather insane one from when I was a kid.

I thought stormtroopers were robots, and the "011" markings on the backs of stormtroopers actually said "OIL" and that you had to "feed" them oil through their backs. I think maybe on the action figures it looked more like it said "OIL".

I remember arguing with this kid about it, and he brought up the part in ANH where they wear stormtrooper suits. I responded that they must have "hollowed them out".

[Kurgan]

I just remembered another rather insane one from when I was a kid.

I thought stormtroopers were robots, and the "011" markings on the backs of stormtroopers actually said "OIL" and that you had to "feed" them oil through their backs. I think maybe on the action figures it looked more like it said "OIL".

I remember arguing with this kid about it, and he brought up the part in ANH where they wear stormtrooper suits. I responded that they must have "hollowed them out".

That's awesome!

[johnmarkley]

When I was a kid, I thought the fleet at bEndor was the entire Imperial fleet.
The first time my little sister saw A New Hope, she thought that the Jawas who captured R2D2 were planning to eat him.

[Mad]

I remembered a couple more that I had:

I thought Admiral Ozzel was a Rebel sympathizer from the way he protests Vader's decisions to investigate Hoth.

I thought Vader's gloves were deflecting Han's blasters on their own.

I thought Luke understood Artoo's beeps.

[StarshipTitanic]

Luke probably can understand a few of Artoo's beeps, as he did work with droids for much of his life. The beeps are some sort of droid language.

[Stofsk]

I thought Admiral Ozzel was a Rebel sympathizer from the way he protests Vader's decisions to investigate Hoth.

I thought Ozzel was just incompetent, but Needa just unlucky. However, from the Factfiles (and I have no idea what they base this on, but whatever) apparently Needa was the Rebel sympathiser, hence why Vader terminated his command.

I actually thought Piet was incompetent, given he was a Captain promoted to Admiral haphazardly by Vader. I attributed his incompetence with the Imperial fleet's defeat at Endor.

[EDIT] SOrry, incompetent may be too strong a word for Piett. I guess he was too... inexperienced and not suited for the Admiralcy. That's what I thought at the time.

[Knife]

Being stationed on the Executor was supposed to be a ticket for promotion. Piett obviously was a good officer, and got lucky to boot.

[Illuminatus Primus]

However, from the Factfiles (and I have no idea what they base this on, but whatever) apparently Needa was the Rebel sympathiser, hence why Vader terminated his command.

Factfiles says this? Can you quote it?