GL: Vader = Pathetic

Jean Paul · Post by **Jean Paul** » 2004-09-25 05:11am

I think the reason Vader was on the DS1 was because it was such a powerful uber-weapon. If Vader wasn't there, and Tarkin rebelled, nothing would stop him. He could hold Coruscant to ransom, or anywhere else for that matter, he could decimate any fleet, he could kill anyone he liked (incl. Palpatine) as long as he could find them.

Having Tarkin in sole charge of the DS with no pure-emperor-loyal person with the power to stop him onboard, would be too dangerous.

Vader was there so that if Tarkin rebelled, Vader could take him out before he managed to do anything dangerous.

As for "dealing with" Vader, it's easier said than done. In one of the EU stories, a group of admirals who were fed up with Vader choking and killing people who "failed" him, tried to assasinate him. They got Vader when he was standing by an airlock.. they opened both doors at once remotely from a far-distant part of the ship. Vader was sucked out but just managed to grab the rim of the airlock with one hand, pull himself back inside and close the doors with an override control panel beside them.

Stuart Mackey · Post by **Stuart Mackey** » 2004-09-25 05:47am

Stravo wrote:GL in the ROTJ commentary says that Palpatine wants Luke to replace Vader because ever since his accident, Vader can no longer be as powerful as he could be because he is mostly machine now. Which of course raises the issue, does that mean that a Jedi who has cybernetic implants or limbs becomes less powerful than when he was whole? It also raises the issue, that if Vader could not reach his full potential why didn't Palpy chuck him during the Purge and get himself a nice whole Jedi, or train some other force sensitive from scratch as he did with Maul? Or does it point to something more sinister that in Ep. III perhaps the Emperor was fairly certain or knew that Anakin had children and was just biding his time for the child to grow.

Kind of also gives you a clue to how powerful Anakin could have been if not for the accident if Vader is considered damaged goods.

I think that maybe you are reading more into it than you should. Vaders mechanicals may well slow him down or make him less efficiant as a fight, but not much more than that. Also, if having more or less force sensitive body mass detrmines power then a force sensitive Jabba the Hutt would run the galaxy not Palpy.

Kazuaki Shimazaki · Post by **Kazuaki Shimazaki** » 2004-09-25 06:14am

Stuart Mackey wrote:I think that maybe you are reading more into it than you should. Vaders mechanicals may well slow him down or make him less efficiant as a fight, but not much more than that. Also, if having more or less force sensitive body mass detrmines power then a force sensitive Jabba the Hutt would run the galaxy not Palpy.

Well, since Jabba the Hutt is not Force-sensitive, that's a non-issue.

Also, I don't understand why people leap from "a loss of organic body area can reduce the amount of interaction with the Force" to "body area is the only factor that determines Force level."

Stuart Mackey · Post by **Stuart Mackey** » 2004-09-25 06:30am

Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote:
Stuart Mackey wrote:I think that maybe you are reading more into it than you should. Vaders mechanicals may well slow him down or make him less efficiant as a fight, but not much more than that. Also, if having more or less force sensitive body mass detrmines power then a force sensitive Jabba the Hutt would run the galaxy not Palpy.
Well, since Jabba the Hutt is not Force-sensitive, that's a non-issue.

I am talking the principle, not if Pizza the Hutt is force sensitive.

Also, I don't understand why people leap from "a loss of organic body area can reduce the amount of interaction with the Force" to "body area is the only factor that determines Force level."

Quite honestly we dont know, but to say that loosing part of your body makes you less force sensitive is absurd given that all we know about how force sensitiveness is midi-colorian count, and not much more. To say more would be a leap, in either direction.

Kazuaki Shimazaki · Post by **Kazuaki Shimazaki** » 2004-09-25 08:11am

Stuart Mackey wrote:Quite honestly we dont know, but to say that loosing part of your body makes you less force sensitive is absurd given that all we know about how force sensitiveness is midi-colorian count, and not much more. To say more would be a leap, in either direction.

The midichlorians are apparently in your blood. Losing some of your body means you lose some of your capacity to carry midichlorians.

Stuart Mackey · Post by **Stuart Mackey** » 2004-09-25 08:41am

Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote:
Stuart Mackey wrote:Quite honestly we dont know, but to say that loosing part of your body makes you less force sensitive is absurd given that all we know about how force sensitiveness is midi-colorian count, and not much more. To say more would be a leap, in either direction.
The midichlorians are apparently in your blood. Losing some of your body means you lose some of your capacity to carry midichlorians.

I rather suspect that that may be an oversimplification. Vader Killed Obi-Wan, yet who was more complete? and we have yet to see if Vader kills any Jedi after his 'accident' on ROTS, allthough Vader is supposed to have hunted down and killed Jedi. We have yet to see Vader fight in ROTS, which will tell us more. In short, let the movies do the talking.

Kazuaki Shimazaki · Post by **Kazuaki Shimazaki** » 2004-09-25 09:09am

Stuart Mackey wrote:The midichlorians are apparently in your blood. Losing some of your body means you lose some of your capacity to carry midichlorians.

I rather suspect that that may be an oversimplification.[/quote]

It is a simple, logical hypothesis with the very limited amount of information we do have available. I don't suppose you happen to have a degree in Astral Dynamics, do you?

Vader Killed Obi-Wan, yet who was more complete?

There you go again, with that change from "body area and completeness is a factor" to it being "body completeness uber alles."

In short, let the movies do the talking.

And in the meantime, make some estimates as best as we can, then change them if the movie says different...

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2004-09-25 09:39am

Lucas's comments on the DVD commentaries are something to the effect of:

Vader is becoming less and less human, and he's not nearly as strong as he could have been.

Lucas doesn't really spell out what the "could have been" was. Could have been if didn't take the Dark Path? Could have been if he hadn't been rebuilt?

I sort of understood it to mean that, like how Yoda uses the Force in AOTC to make himself able to move around like an acrobat instead of a crippled old guy who needs a cane. But one could argue that if he wasn't using up all that extra power to overcome his physical infirmity, he'd have even more power to devote to combat. Ditto for Vader. And/or you could say that his cybernetic parts are a liability. They can't use the Force, and they can be damaged and need repair, etc. So Palpy's Force Lightning may have been resistable, but the mechanical parts can be damaged and without them Vader dies.

Something like that anyway. Nothing about midichlorians, just listen to what Lucas says about Vader in the commentaries in ROTJ during the lightsaber battle.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2004-09-25 01:25pm

Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote:Which goes with my point - your body affects your connection with the Force.

No, it has to do with the fact that you're not a living individual without a body.

Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote:Now, it won't be the only factor, after all talent and experience with the Force count for a lot too. But losing half your body just can't be good for the connection.

Like I said, this interpretation asserts that Force sensitives with greater mass should have deeper connections.

Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote:Don't be so black and white. You know that there are many factors in determining your power in the Force.

What happened to Vader? He lost significant amounts of his organic body mass. You assert what happened to Vader caused him to lose power. Therefore you are implicitly stating that less body mass correlates to a poorer connection to the Force.

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2004-09-25 01:33pm

You assert what happened to Vader caused him to lose power.

In a way it did, he fell into a pool of lava and most of his body was damaged beyond repair. Not to mention suffering from trauma for a long time afterward + living with the knowledge that you helped the galaxy´s most evil and corrupt being get absolute power.

I think all that combined would do untold damage to your psyche thus affecting your ability to use the Force properly.

Kazuaki Shimazaki · Post by **Kazuaki Shimazaki** » 2004-09-25 09:01pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Like I said, this interpretation asserts that Force sensitives with greater mass should have deeper connections.

Yes, all else being equal, which they generally are not.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2004-09-25 09:12pm

We don't even have to get into esoteric stuff like body mass and area. Yoda and Ben always talked about the power of the Force flowing through a Jedi. Well, what if the cybernetic parts impede with the force flowing through the Jedi, act as sort of an interference that must be overcome.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2004-09-25 10:01pm

Well one could say that when Yoda says "life creates it" he means organic biological life (as opposed to artificial life like droids).

But then Lucas basically goes out and says in the commentaries that Vader IS weaker in the Force than he would have been because of his becoming cybernetic.

Whatever that means, that's what Lucas believes about his creation.

Anyway, my theory is that it's due to having to "prop up" his broken body with the Force, like Yoda does. If you have to expend extra energy just to get yourself up to the functional level of a normal human being, that's less energy to use in combat. Of course Vader has his robotic implants to do most of that for him, but he's still limited, and those parts can be attacked (like Palpatine's lightning) and are a liability to him. Lucas has this philosophy that technology may be wonderful but it's no substitute for the "Real thing" (whether or not you feel he's full of it for believing this, it comes out in his commentaries and the films seem to reflect it).

Kazuaki Shimazaki · Post by **Kazuaki Shimazaki** » 2004-09-25 10:54pm

Kurgan wrote:"Real thing" (whether or not you feel he's full of it for believing this, it comes out in his commentaries and the films seem to reflect it).

Yeah, you can just see it in his Clone vs Droid depictions, and of course those wacky Yuuzhan Vong that he approved. Realistically, even if a droid is less flexible in thinking, by fitting him with a fast traversing blaster and a good fire control system, he can aim better than a human. Who cares if some humans use their ingenuity to trap the droids in an ambush if the droids have superior fire control and fast movement that let them dodge shots while hitting the ambushing humans with every blast, or armor that allows them to survive said shots while hitting back to much less well armored humans?

Stuart Mackey · Post by **Stuart Mackey** » 2004-09-26 01:16am

Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote:
And in the meantime, make some estimates as best as we can, then change them if the movie says different...

Or why dont we come up with something that canon or Lucas has said to prove it?

Kazuaki Shimazaki · Post by **Kazuaki Shimazaki** » 2004-09-26 01:23am

Stuart Mackey wrote:
Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote:
And in the meantime, make some estimates as best as we can, then change them if the movie says different...
Or why dont we come up with something that canon or Lucas has said to prove it?

I make the best hypothesis possible under the limited information we have available. You say "Not enough evidence. I don't like it", thus de facto claiming that "Body Completeness has no effect on your ability to use the Force." Of course, you have no evidence for your claim which even bucks logic.

Stuart Mackey · Post by **Stuart Mackey** » 2004-09-26 01:30am

Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote:
Stuart Mackey wrote:
Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote:
And in the meantime, make some estimates as best as we can, then change them if the movie says different...
Or why dont we come up with something that canon or Lucas has said to prove it?
I make the best hypothesis possible under the limited information we have available. You say "Not enough evidence. I don't like it", thus de facto claiming that "Body Completeness has no effect on your ability to use the Force." Of course, you have no evidence for your claim which even bucks logic.

Bollocks. I am saying there is not enough evidence to make any kind of judgment either way.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2004-09-26 01:35am

Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote:
Kurgan wrote:"Real thing" (whether or not you feel he's full of it for believing this, it comes out in his commentaries and the films seem to reflect it).
Yeah, you can just see it in his Clone vs Droid depictions, and of course those wacky Yuuzhan Vong that he approved. Realistically, even if a droid is less flexible in thinking, by fitting him with a fast traversing blaster and a good fire control system, he can aim better than a human. Who cares if some humans use their ingenuity to trap the droids in an ambush if the droids have superior fire control and fast movement that let them dodge shots while hitting the ambushing humans with every blast, or armor that allows them to survive said shots while hitting back to much less well armored humans?

I would say Lucas is trying to make the point that biological sentient lifeforms are "better" than droids because they have emotions, feeling, spirit, etc.

Yet, he then muddies this "message" by making the droids have emotions, feelings, etc. In the commentaries he says Threepio "has no soul."

It's sort of like the Jedi how they use the Force to make up for all their shortcomings in tactics, equipment, etc. But if they combined their powers WITH better tactics and equipment, they'd be even more awesome. Instead they just go into battle naked and "trust the Force" (but then they're shown failing, and it's like what did they expect?).

Movie logic I guess...

Again, to me the "Vader is weaker than he ought to be" thing with Lucas is just like the thing with Yoda. Yoda may be a wise guy, but if he had a young body he'd have to expend less energy making his old crippled body move like a young healthy body. Ditto for Vader. You'd think the cybernetics would make him stronger, but they symbolically make him "colder." Maybe something about "cold unfeeling machines" and how you need emotions to use the Force well. But then if the droids in SW are extremely emotional (as we have plenty of examples of them being), then how does that gel with this? Perhaps it's not that Anakin is losing his "heart" by becoming part droid, but rather he was just always emotionally defective all along. Then again the prequels show him as a very passionate individual, just about the wrong things, and he doesn't take responsibility for his actions.

Perhaps Lucas just doesn't quite know what he wants from his characters yet, and it's gotten muddled over the years. It's one thing to make them complex, it's quite another to say they're this way or that way when all we can do is take his word for it.

Edit: Maybe it's all coming down to "the Force." Since the Force seems to only apply to biological life, then ultimately the Force is "with" these life forms, not with droids. So ultimately since the Force makes sure things "work out in the end" (some kind of fate or destiny), the biologicals will ultimately win. Though that's a pretty nebulous suggestion. In a battle the droids will win as long as you can keep making droids, which is quicker and cheaper than making new humanoids, Jedi or otherwise.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2004-09-26 01:40am

Stravo wrote:We don't even have to get into esoteric stuff like body mass and area. Yoda and Ben always talked about the power of the Force flowing through a Jedi. Well, what if the cybernetic parts impede with the force flowing through the Jedi, act as sort of an interference that must be overcome.

That's stupid. Why would machine parts where your body parts had been "feel" different to the Force than any machine gear you're wearing? Are Jedi in power armor or whatnot going to be weaker? Again, the real variable in question is Anakin's loss of body mass.

I don't really know why we're going to twist our proverbial arms over our interpretation of the Force over what he said. Under SoD, its irrelevent, and given his certainty and finality with any remarks it probably also transient to boot.

And Jedi Brand was not neutered by his little accident.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2004-09-26 01:44am

Are we discussing whether say a big fat Jedi is stronger in the Force than an equally trained skinny Jedi?

One could then argue that the "midicholorian count" or whatever setting gives a person their force power level is random or "selected" by the Force.

So two Jedi can be given different amounts of power potential or something. So Anakin has the most potential, but he wastes it all by letting his body get destroyed and having to make up for that handicap. If he took care of himself he'd have more power to throw around. Or something.

Well, that's just my interpretation of George's remarks. He might mean something else entirely. ; p

As to why we should care about his remarks, well, it's author's intent. I read Mike Wong's page about how this sort of thing is silly to argue (and I agree) because we're guessing a person's thoughts. But in this case we have him explaining WHAT HE MEANT about his own story. Granted, we can't just plop Lucas down and say "but what did you mean by that" and get him to clarify it over and over in a hundred different ways so we're sure we understand him. But that's totally different than guessing what he meant about it.

Or we could be hyper-literal about the canon policy and say "well since his comments aren't part of the movie or an officially liscensed EU book they're not canon and can be ignored." That they're on the DVD itself I think at least gives them some credibility.

Galvatron · Post by **Galvatron** » 2004-09-26 01:55am

What a bunch of horseshit. If Force-sensitivity were based on one's size, wouldn't that sorta conflict with Yoda's "size matters not" and "judge me by my size do you?"

Kazuaki Shimazaki · Post by **Kazuaki Shimazaki** » 2004-09-26 02:39am

Stuart Mackey wrote:Bollocks. I am saying there is not enough evidence to make any kind of judgment either way.

There is not enough evidence to make any kind of definitive judgment. There are signs we can use to make preliminary judgments which is then subject to change.

What a bunch of horseshit. If Force-sensitivity were based on one's size, wouldn't that sorta conflict with Yoda's "size matters not" and "judge me by my size do you?"

Yoda, if Size Really Matters Not, why are you struggling with that pole in AOTC?

I don't understand, again why do people take a preliminary idea where the amount of body mass left is a factor and turn it into the only thing? Is that kind of a strawman?

StarshipTitanic · Post by **StarshipTitanic** » 2004-09-26 02:41am

Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote:
Yoda, if Size Really Matters Not, why are you struggling with that pole in AOTC?

I don't understand, again why do people take a preliminary idea where the amount of body mass left is a factor and turn it into the only thing? Is that kind of a strawman?

He just had a very exausting fight with Dooku, using all his concentration to first top Dooku's Force tricks, then jump around insanely. I would venture his concentration is slightly off.

Yoda lifted Luke's X-Wing, which was larger than the piece of rock, without a sign of effort.

Kazuaki Shimazaki · Post by **Kazuaki Shimazaki** » 2004-09-26 02:47am

StarshipTitanic wrote:He just had a very exausting fight with Dooku, using all his concentration to first top Dooku's Force tricks, then jump around insanely. I would venture his concentration is slightly off.

Yoda lifted Luke's X-Wing, which was larger than the piece of rock, without a sign of effort.

In any case, Size Matters Not also violates the No Limit Fallacy Rule.

Besides, if Size Literally Matters Not, he should still have plenty of concentration. After all, nobody would think Yoda would have trouble lifting a piece of tissue paper even after that battle, and according to him, Size Matters Not, right? So it should take nearly no concentration at all to lift that pole too.

StarshipTitanic · Post by **StarshipTitanic** » 2004-09-26 02:57am

Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote:
StarshipTitanic wrote:He just had a very exausting fight with Dooku, using all his concentration to first top Dooku's Force tricks, then jump around insanely. I would venture his concentration is slightly off.

Yoda lifted Luke's X-Wing, which was larger than the piece of rock, without a sign of effort.
In any case, Size Matters Not also violates the No Limit Fallacy Rule.

Besides, if Size Literally Matters Not, he should still have plenty of concentration. After all, nobody would think Yoda would have trouble lifting a piece of tissue paper even after that battle, and according to him, Size Matters Not, right? So it should take nearly no concentration at all to lift that pole too.

You're being dense. Yoda just did a ton of Force acrobatics and exercises, his ability to manipulate the Force to his liking is diminished because he's tired. The pole couldn't have been far heavier than the X-Wing in TESB, which Yoda lifted with no apparant effort. If we're playing chess, and I slap you across the face once every second, are you going to play as effectively?