Arrows vs Stormtrooper armour

DPDarkPrimus · Post by **DPDarkPrimus** » 2004-09-26 01:43pm

Notice that Darkstar has purposely small pictures so that you can't see the detail of the arrow shot.

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2004-09-26 02:18pm

Master of Ossus wrote:
Praxis wrote:ROFL! What a laugh! He puts a picture there that OBVIOUSLY, *OBVIOUSLY* shows Alderaan's shield, and DIRECTLY beneath it, "nothing to indicate a shield". Cracks me up.
I posted a separate thread in the HoS discussing DarkStar's ridiculous response.

With regard to the arrow, the only thing that needs to be said is "Okay. If you have a surface that is penetrated by a line, and you're looking at that surface from the side, are you going to see the surface or the line in the area of intersection? DarkStar says you'll see the line."

Interestingly, he's trying to say that the angle the arrow is sticking means it must be in the armor. HOWEVER, if you watch the video clip ON HIS OWN PAGE, you'll see that when the arrow first enters, if you pause and draw a line, it would go STRAIGHT into the neck. Not the armor on the back.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2004-09-26 02:35pm

The thing about the arrow is, I can clearly see the line where the arrow hits the body suit. It was kind of fuzzy and hard to see before, but now its almost perfect.

The only argument he really has is with one of those other pictures that appears to show a "groove" in the backpack, which could potentially be confused for the rest of the arrow, and thus leave room for his theory that the arrow just buries itself in the backpack and happens to line up with it perfectly, giving the illusion of an arrow that penetrates the bodyglove only.

Edit: then again, is that inset what it really looks like or something he modified "for emphasis"? If he did edit it, then he plain has no argument.

Of course it could be that the groove isn't really supposed to be there (in universe) but is a modification to the suit in order to faciliate the arrow being placed there (akin to the squib belts people wear in movies, it's not a part of the costume you're meant to see).

As to the Alderaan shield thing, I think he misses the point really. The Original version does show a different shield effect (the beam "wraps around" the planet like a blob in that one shot). But that doesn't mean that the shield no longer exists, just that its' represented differently. We've seen in the prequels how many different types of shields exist in the SW universe. Every shield thus need not be identical. This is more akin to a soap bubble like we see in Star Trek TNG & beyond[/b], that's just hugging the planet a little more (rather than drifting out in space away from it). In Trek sometimes the shield will "shimmer" around in a motion rather than show you the entire shield the instant any corner of it is hit. So it may be less obvious, but it's definately there, and slightly clearer than it was in the SE.

Edit: Dang typos...

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-09-26 02:50pm

Well he is right about there being a groove (though I didn't see it when I went over the new page; rather, I noticed it for myself in the pic) as Alyeska's picture shows. I don't believe that that's the line we're seeing, but it is there.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2004-09-26 02:55pm

Ah, yeah, that's good. Hmm...

Maybe we should ask Lucas on this one, anybody got the number of the Ranch?

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2004-09-26 05:36pm

If black were the same as brown, this might be a good point. Or if arrows were an inch wide. Neither of these is true.

Laird · Post by **Laird** » 2004-09-26 07:51pm

As per-request, Ladies and Gentlemen...I give you Darkstars defeat.
Check it out, arrows bouncing off stormtrooper armour.

Bounce1
Bounce2
Bounce3

Follow the pictures for the stormtrooper to the most left...you can clearly see the arrow bounces off.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2004-09-26 07:54pm

Laird wrote:Follow the pictures for the stormtrooper to the most left...you can clearly see the arrow bounces off.

More importantly, look at the second fucking image! It SHOWS the fucking arrow slipping between the armor plates. You can actually see the point of impact, and that it is clearly above the armor plate that DarkStar has consistently claimed it penetrated! It is absolutely, 100%, concrete evidence that he was flat out wrong.

Laird · Post by **Laird** » 2004-09-26 07:56pm

Master of Ossus wrote:
Laird wrote:Follow the pictures for the stormtrooper to the most left...you can clearly see the arrow bounces off.
More importantly, look at the second fucking image! It SHOWS the fucking arrow slipping between the armor plates. You can actually see the point of impact, and that it is clearly above the armor plate that DarkStar has consistently claimed it penetrated! It is absolutely, 100%, concrete evidence that he was flat out wrong.

Your right...talk about a complete fluke....I didn't even notice that on the other trooper...I was focusing on the arrows bouncing off the armour.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2004-09-26 08:18pm

Those arrows clearly have tips on them (I'm assuming stone arrowheads). Who said they were just sharpened sticks?

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2004-09-26 08:28pm

Kurgan wrote:Those arrows clearly have tips on them (I'm assuming stone arrowheads). Who said they were just sharpened sticks?

Gil mistakenly said that earlier in the thread. The arrows seem to be broad-head arrows, probably made out of flaked stone.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2004-09-26 08:45pm

Ok, np. I agree.

Post by **Vympel** » 2004-09-26 10:45pm

Actually, Darkstar's previous moronic response to the bounce incident was that it doesn't disprove the other penetration, and brings up some moronic idea that "because the arrows of a stone age civilization aren't all the same length" (like,wtf?) then the arrow that bounched was shorter, or some bullshit like that. Of course, these new pics from Laird show that both arrows are the same length.

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2004-09-27 12:03am

Laird wrote:As per-request, Ladies and Gentlemen...I give you Darkstars defeat.
Check it out, arrows bouncing off stormtrooper armour.

Bounce1
Bounce2
Bounce3

Follow the pictures for the stormtrooper to the most left...you can clearly see the arrow bounces off.

Would anyone mind putting those into a 4-frame animated image, followed by my picture with the magnified arrow tip here:
http://gflpraxis.no-ip.com/arrow3-edit.jpg
please? Thanks

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2004-09-27 12:07am

Vympel wrote:Actually, Darkstar's previous moronic response to the bounce incident was that it doesn't disprove the other penetration, and brings up some moronic idea that "because the arrows of a stone age civilization aren't all the same length" (like,wtf?) then the arrow that bounched was shorter, or some bullshit like that. Of course, these new pics from Laird show that both arrows are the same length.

DarkStar's point that a bounce doesn't disprove another penetration is accurate, but his bullshit speculation as to WHY the one bounced while the other penetrated is laughable. Of course, now that there's definitive evidence that the "penetration" arrow just punched through the body glove, the point is moot.

Winston Blake · Post by **Winston Blake** » 2004-09-27 12:44am

Is it just me or do these pics still leave 'wiggle room' for Darkstar?

This pic clearly shows the arrow hitting the body glove:
http://members.shaw.ca/dmz/debatepics/arrow3.jpg
Then the next one doesn't:
http://members.shaw.ca/dmz/debatepics/arrow4.jpg

This pic clearly shows the arrow hitting the body glove:
http://members.shaw.ca/dmz/debatepics/arrowbounce2.jpg
Then the next one doesn't:
http://members.shaw.ca/dmz/debatepics/arrowbounce3.jpg

In fact in his page that was mentioned earlier, he has already used a single pic that doesn't show the arrow hitting the neck as supposedly definitive proof (accompanied by the usual mocking tone).
+http://st-v-sw.net/dvdtemp.html

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2004-09-27 12:47am

There is no wiggle room.

Even if you can't see the arrow going through the body glove in two of the pictures, it could easily have been a problem with the film. However, it's hard to envision a problem with the film allowing for an arrow to appear where there should be no arrow, and since two of the images CLEARLY show the arrow going straight through the body glove, his point is refuted nicely.

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2004-09-27 01:05am

Master of Ossus wrote:There is no wiggle room.

Even if you can't see the arrow going through the body glove in two of the pictures, it could easily have been a problem with the film. However, it's hard to envision a problem with the film allowing for an arrow to appear where there should be no arrow, and since two of the images CLEARLY show the arrow going straight through the body glove, his point is refuted nicely.

Yes, but you-know-who will only put the pictures with wiggle room on his site and conveniently ignore the ones that are proof that he's wrong.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2004-09-27 01:13am

So to sum up... one arrow hits the armor, and it bounces off. Then another arrow hits the body glove and sticks. Boom!

Seems pretty cut and dried to me.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2004-09-27 02:27am

Praxis wrote:Yes, but you-know-who will only put the pictures with wiggle room on his site and conveniently ignore the ones that are proof that he's wrong.

Probably, but who cares? If any of his disciples ever come whining about how the arrows never punched through the armor, it's easy enough to post our own screen-caps. Further, if he himself ever argues about it, we can easily refute him with our screen-caps, which show him to be definitively wrong. He can post whatever drivel he wants on his site, but if every time he or anyone else tries to use that information in debate it gets utterly crushed then it will avail him nothing.

Isolder74 · Post by **Isolder74** » 2004-09-27 02:41am

Also the Angle of the initial hit is to high for it to be hitting the backpack. If only the guy in front of him didn't have his head in the way. The Angle is such that the only place it could be hitting is the body glove.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2004-09-27 02:43am

Praxis wrote:
Master of Ossus wrote:There is no wiggle room.

Even if you can't see the arrow going through the body glove in two of the pictures, it could easily have been a problem with the film. However, it's hard to envision a problem with the film allowing for an arrow to appear where there should be no arrow, and since two of the images CLEARLY show the arrow going straight through the body glove, his point is refuted nicely.
Yes, but you-know-who will only put the pictures with wiggle room on his site and conveniently ignore the ones that are proof that he's wrong.

That's not wiggle room, that's called outright lying. All anyone else has to do is put up the frames he does not and call him on it.

Typhonis 1 · Post by **Typhonis 1** » 2004-09-27 02:47am

Out of curiosity is it ever revealed WHY the ewok arrows have no flecthings???I mean with computer effects these days how hard would it be to put them on the fired arrows?

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2004-09-27 02:48am

Fletchlings?

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2004-09-27 02:55am

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:Fletchlings?

The little feathers, usually attached with a slight twist, to stabilize the arrows in flight.