GL: Vader = Pathetic

Kazuaki Shimazaki · Post by **Kazuaki Shimazaki** » 2004-09-26 03:09am

StarshipTitanic wrote:You're being dense. Yoda just did a ton of Force acrobatics and exercises, his ability to manipulate the Force to his liking is diminished because he's tired. The pole couldn't have been far heavier than the X-Wing in TESB, which Yoda lifted with no apparant effort. If we're playing chess, and I slap you across the face once every second, are you going to play as effectively?

But you said it took him little effort to lift the X-Wing. Because according to you, Size Matters Not, it should also take him very little effort to lift the pole even if the entire pole is made of neutronium. Even if he's a bit tired, he should still be able to do it easily, just as you can still lift a piece of tissue paper even if you are not in your best shape.

StarshipTitanic · Post by **StarshipTitanic** » 2004-09-26 03:27am

Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote:But you said it took him little effort to lift the X-Wing. Because according to you, Size Matters Not, it should also take him very little effort to lift the pole even if the entire pole is made of neutronium. Even if he's a bit tired, he should still be able to do it easily, just as you can still lift a piece of tissue paper even if you are not in your best shape.

I don't know how much is too much for the Force to move, but I do know that concentration is an important part of using the Force. Time and time again, we are handed this fact on a platter. Yoda just:

Absorbed Force lightning
Threw the lightning back
Deflected some rocks, I think
Fought Dooku for a good two or so minutes of using the Force to help him jump around the cavern and guide his lightsaber

When we see Yoda, is he a spry individual? Clearly, he must have been drawing heavily from the Force throughtout this ordeal. Finally, he's struck with the fact that he can't stop Dooku and save Obi-wan and Anakin at the same time. He must be feeling fustration, desparation, futile exaustion. He's not in the same state of confident teacher frame of mind he is in TESB, when he moves the X-Wing.

Kazuaki Shimazaki · Post by **Kazuaki Shimazaki** » 2004-09-26 03:30am

StarshipTitanic wrote:I don't know how much is too much for the Force to move,

There, thus, Size does not really Matter Not. Thanks.

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2004-09-26 11:55am

Stravo wrote:We don't even have to get into esoteric stuff like body mass and area. Yoda and Ben always talked about the power of the Force flowing through a Jedi. Well, what if the cybernetic parts impede with the force flowing through the Jedi, act as sort of an interference that must be overcome.

I really, really, really hate this crap about machines or cybernetics interfering with the force, I thought it was some non-canon fan made nonsense the first time I heard of it.

Secondly Vader's mechanical parts should have made him more dangerous since artificial parts are faster, stronger and more durable.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2004-09-26 03:14pm

I agree, more durable than human parts, but also less durable than force enhanced biological parts.

Example: let's say you're in a battle and your arm gets hurt. Okay, so you use the Force to heal your arm rapidly. Good as new, yay!

But then your cybernetic arm gets damaged. Okay, so time to go to a repair shop (unless there's a Force power out there that lets you repair electronics.. Force Solder/Weld/Sand/Lube Job).

It brings to mind the incident from the "Death and Return of Superman" (the Reign of the Supermen comic series book) where the half cyborg, half kryptonian Superman saves Lois Lane from being hit by a heat blast or something like he normally would, just standing in the way. She goes to hug him afterward but she can't because his robotic side is still hot, like a stove-top. So the fact is the robotic part reacts differently than the non-robotic side. It's dependant on the strength and repairability of the materials.

Even Luke's robot hand gets damaged by a blaster in ROTJ. He would have to repair it, he can't just use the Force to heal it like a normal injury.

Likewise Vader's circuitry seems to have been heavily damaged by the Force Lightning, whereas Luke put up with quite a bit of it and he lived. Then again Luke is young and one could argue that the Emperor wasn't using full power lightning on Luke (except the last few seconds) because he wanted to torture him, and the full power lightning was what hit Vader, etc. Still, that's a lot of punishment and ultimately it was more than he could take.

Just thought of something else. If Vader will "die" if he takes his mask off, could a Force user who wanted to kill him in combat just Force pull the helmet off? Granted, Vader could block the pull with the Force, but just interesting scenario...

I wonder what Lucas would say to this question: How much of a body do you need to use the Force (if any)? I mean, could you have a cyborg Jedi who is just a brain in a box with a robot body, and could he use the Force?

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2004-09-26 03:31pm

Kurgan wrote:I agree, more durable than human parts, but also less durable than force enhanced biological parts.

Example: let's say you're in a battle and your arm gets hurt. Okay, so you use the Force to heal your arm rapidly. Good as new, yay!

But then your cybernetic arm gets damaged. Okay, so time to go to a repair shop (unless there's a Force power out there that lets you repair electronics.. Force Solder/Weld/Sand/Lube Job).

An artificial hand wouldn't be damaged half as easily though, especially not if it's made for military purposes, heck I bet if luke's hand had been real in ROTJ the blast would have made the hand totally unusable and the pain would have been more crippling.
All that happened to the artificial hand was that the outer layer was burnt and you could see the insides, other than that it functioned fine for the rest of the movie, Luke just put a glove over it.

And Luke was using the force to dissipate the Emperors attack(there's also the playing/torturing thing ofcourse), hence why he survived, Vader was too busy tossing the emperor over the rail.
Also:

Pg. 8: "You're not well sir."
"I'm just tired."
"Sir, my diagnosis is sudden and massive calcification of your skeletal structure, of the rare type brought on by severely conductive exposure to electrical and other energy fields."
Energy fields. Yesterday. Emperor Palpatine, leering as blue-white sparks leaped off his fingertips while Luke writhed on the deck. Luke broke a sweat, the memory was so fresh. He'd thought he was dying. He was dying.
"The abrupt drop in blood minerals is causing muscular microseizures all across your body, sir."
So that is why he ached. Until an hour ago, he hadn't had a chance to sit still and notice. Deflated, he stared up at Too-Onebee. "But it's not permanent damage, is it? You don't have to replace any bones?" He shuddered at the thought.
"The situation will become chronic unless you rest and allow me to treat you," answered the mechanical voice. "The alternative is bacta immersion."

(ref: The Truce At Bakura)

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2004-09-26 03:47pm

An artificial hand wouldn't be damaged half as easily though, especially not if it's made for military purposes, heck I bet if luke's hand had been real in ROTJ the blast would have made the hand totally unusable and the pain would have been more crippling.
All that happened to the artificial hand was that the outer layer was burnt and you could see the insides, other than that it functioned fine for the rest of the movie, Luke just put a glove over it.

True. And it still worked! Naked flesh is weaker than cybernetics, but its quicker and easier to repair with the Force (if repair of the mechanics is even possible with the Force).

And Luke was using the force to dissipate the Emperors attack(there's also the playing/torturing thing ofcourse), hence why he survived, Vader was too busy tossing the emperor over the rail.

IIRC, only for the first part of the attack. He briefly pushed aside the lightning, before he was overwhelmed. In the movie we just saw him knocked to the floor and writhing around helplessly in agony.

Kazuaki Shimazaki · Post by **Kazuaki Shimazaki** » 2004-09-26 10:28pm

Kurgan wrote:I agree, more durable than human parts, but also less durable than force enhanced biological parts.

Example: let's say you're in a battle and your arm gets hurt. Okay, so you use the Force to heal your arm rapidly. Good as new, yay!

Nice pure principle, but AFAIK there is no evidence Force repairs to incapacitating damage is fast enough to matter in a firefight, at least not for the average Jedi.

But then your cybernetic arm gets damaged. Okay, so time to go to a repair shop (unless there's a Force power out there that lets you repair electronics.. Force Solder/Weld/Sand/Lube Job).

There are in fact, some Force powers that allow you to do that. It is not AFAIK WEG listed, but Anakin Solo might have done that in Children of the Jedi (the quote that is always advertised), where he brought a non-functional droid to partial functionality just by pointing at it and muttering "Fix, fix."

Likewise Vader's circuitry seems to have been heavily damaged by the Force Lightning, whereas Luke put up with quite a bit of it and he lived. Then again Luke is young and one could argue that the Emperor wasn't using full power lightning on Luke (except the last few seconds) because he wanted to torture him, and the full power lightning was what hit Vader, etc. Still, that's a lot of punishment and ultimately it was more than he could take.

The attack on Vader was enough to heat bone till they lit up. The surprise is that any part of him, mechanical or biological, still kind of works.

Just thought of something else. If Vader will "die" if he takes his mask off, could a Force user who wanted to kill him in combat just Force pull the helmet off? Granted, Vader could block the pull with the Force, but just interesting scenario...

Not immediately. The effort of pulling off the mask against someone like Vader will also distract the poor Jedi (who, because he only has an average Jedi midichlorian count, is probably hard pressed to deal with Vader in the first place) doing it, and Vader will kill him and put the mask back on.

I wonder what Lucas would say to this question: How much of a body do you need to use the Force (if any)? I mean, could you have a cyborg Jedi who is just a brain in a box with a robot body, and could he use the Force?

Already answered - there are cases where people have used Ssi-Ruuk entechment to transfer their souls into droids and continue their Force-studies. I don't think it'd be as good, but you can do it.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2004-09-27 01:17am

So at least in the EU, the biological portion has nothing whatsoever to do with Force abilities, refuting George's seeming connection with life.

I mean, can Jedi spirits still do their powers to affect the world? Can Spirit Kenobi force push people around? I know they can communicate with certain people through speech and through visual appearances (or at least the appearance of speech, possibly just telepathy).

Then again we see Kenobi pushing asides some leaves or something don't we? That was a cool trick. ; ) What happens if you whip out a blaster and shoot a Jedi ghost? Or try to Force choke him? Get the Jedi Council on the phone!

Kazuaki Shimazaki · Post by **Kazuaki Shimazaki** » 2004-09-27 08:44am

Kurgan wrote:So at least in the EU, the biological portion has nothing whatsoever to do with Force abilities, refuting George's seeming connection with life.

It doesn't refute it. All it does is say that the biological is not the end-all, that's all, which makes sense. After all, we have ghosts in SW (Obi-Wan). Lucas just says you'd likely be weaker if you don't have biological parts, which makes sense too. Obi-Wan is limited to little more than showing up and talking to Luke. And there is a reason why Palpatine didn't just 1) live on as an astral being, materializing with a trick like Doppelganger when he has to show up for something, or 2) completely cybernetize himself, so he never has to worry about aging fast.

Then again we see Kenobi pushing asides some leaves or something don't we? That was a cool trick. ; ) What happens if you whip out a blaster and shoot a Jedi ghost? Or try to Force choke him? Get the Jedi Council on the phone!

He's an astral being, so blasters and force chokes won't work. The best trick short of some dedicated ghostbusting Force technique is probably to try Control Mind. That might attack his soul and if you give the right commands, dissolve him.