Lucas and Firing First

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2004-09-27 10:04am

Lucas is full of shit when he claims Han was always meant to fire after Greedo. He also claims he "just didn't have the shot". Bullshit. The entire cantina sequence was shot twice, once in England, and once in the U.S. If he "forgot" twice to "get that shot", then maybe it wasn't so important?

Yeah, and in E.T. , the Feds always carried walkie-talkies...

In Entertainment Weekly, Lucas pretty much admits he changed the scene as an afterthought. He said he couldn't have Han as a cold blooded killer. "How can you redeem someone like that?"

Er....Anakin Skywalker was.

Also, Solo sure doesn't wait for those stormtroopers to shoot first, does he?

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2004-09-27 10:12am

What's more retarded than the claim itself is in that same EW interview he says that Greedo always shot first but the way it was edited made it look like Han did.

My jaw dropped as I read that. The man either has a horrible memory or he is a lying sack of shit. How many contradictory and outrageous claims can the man make?

Chris OFarrell · Post by **Chris OFarrell** » 2004-09-27 10:35am

Thats INSANE. In the orignal version, Greedo doesn't even get the chance. Han comments "I bet you have" then he blow up! THATS what was so amazing about the character, he was the rough and straight up fringe pilot who is not going to play by 'good guy' rules.

Mange · Post by **Mange** » 2004-09-27 12:06pm

This is such a minor detail, I was never bothered with this change. I mean, it's clear that Solo unhooks his blaster from the belt, so it's clear that he intended to shoot Greedo in any case so the change doesn't really affect Han's character.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2004-09-27 12:10pm

Mange the Swede wrote:This is such a minor detail, I was never bothered with this change. I mean, it's clear that Solo unhooks his blaster from the belt, so it's clear that he intended to shoot Greedo in any case so the change doesn't really affect Han's character.

It most certainly does, previous version had Solo blasting Greedo because he got the drop on him. This version has Solo waiting to be shot at first, considering the range involved it's a stupid move. It also changes Solo's character from one that is decidedly grey (killing first) to one that already has a heart of gold and a goody goody to boot.

Most drug dealers and criminal element in general shoot first and don't wait to be shot at. Han Solo was a criminal. It should be in his nature to blast the other guy first if he gets the drop on him.

Mange · Post by **Mange** » 2004-09-27 12:16pm

Stravo wrote:
Mange the Swede wrote:This is such a minor detail, I was never bothered with this change. I mean, it's clear that Solo unhooks his blaster from the belt, so it's clear that he intended to shoot Greedo in any case so the change doesn't really affect Han's character.
It most certainly does, previous version had Solo blasting Greedo because he got the drop on him. This version has Solo waiting to be shot at first, considering the range involved it's a stupid move. It also changes Solo's character from one that is decidedly grey (killing first) to one that already has a heart of gold and a goody goody to boot.

Most drug dealers and criminal element in general shoot first and don't wait to be shot at. Han Solo was a criminal. It should be in his nature to blast the other guy first if he gets the drop on him.

I understand what you're saying, but I still think it's such a trivial matter. I didn't like the SE change either (it was poorly executed), but the new DVD version is far better.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2004-09-27 12:17pm

Chris OFarrell wrote:

Thats INSANE. In the orignal version, Greedo doesn't even get the chance. Han comments "I bet you have" then he blow up! THATS what was so amazing about the character, he was the rough and straight up fringe pilot who is not going to play by 'good guy' rules.

My sentiments exactly.

This what appealed to me of Han and that scene. Changing it because it's too unredeemable?

So what else is unredeemable?

Maybe Luke lying for all we know

Tsyroc · Post by **Tsyroc** » 2004-09-27 12:17pm

Personally I always thought Solo was smart in shooting Greedo first.

I mean the guy is sitting their pointing a weapon at him and talking all kinds of smack. After his response to the "over my dead body" comment was there much doubt in anyone's mind that Greedo was going to shoot Han the first good chance he got?

Typhonis 1 · Post by **Typhonis 1** » 2004-09-27 02:16pm

Greedo was out and out stupid ,he made a horendously stupid mistake by NOT having Han keep his hands in the open ...I have no roblem with it.

Sure its and "Evil" act but Solo also had the chice to let Greedo shoot at him...in this case shooting first was the smart move

nightmare · Post by **nightmare** » 2004-09-27 02:31pm

Stravo wrote:What's more retarded than the claim itself is in that same EW interview he says that Greedo always shot first but the way it was edited made it look like Han did.

My jaw dropped as I read that. The man either has a horrible memory or he is a lying sack of shit. How many contradictory and outrageous claims can the man make?

Hmm. If I play devil's advocate here, I could assume that the shot was originally the other way around, but ended up in the screened version with Han shooting first after editing. So it would be true from a "certain point of view"... *shrug* well, it's settled now with the DVD.

PainRack · Post by **PainRack** » 2004-09-27 02:35pm

If Han was already such a goody two shoes, why was he a pirate(11 piracies as in TESB novelisation), or why did he feel himself turning good in ROTJ novelisation? The cut scene where they went back to the MF and Luke X-wing on Tatooine.

Galvatron · Post by **Galvatron** » 2004-09-27 02:45pm

It's evil to shoot someone who's holding a gun pointed at your chest and threatening to kill you...

MY ASS!

White Haven · Post by **White Haven** » 2004-09-27 02:47pm

Meh. Evil, hell, it's good sense. Someone points a gun at you, you're greenlighted to blow their navel out the back of their spine, and that's that.

apocolypse · Post by **apocolypse** » 2004-09-27 04:32pm

I dislike the Greedo shooting first bit. I really don't what GL is thinking because IMO it was more believeable the way it originally was. Further, it gives Han less character development.

Meest · Post by **Meest** » 2004-09-27 06:25pm

Have to remember he's probably thinking of the 9 year old kid watching or something like that, still no excuse for just saying whatever the hell he wants to.

Cal Wright · Post by **Cal Wright** » 2004-09-27 08:58pm

I think the way Stravo has said it makes sense to me now why people are so boiled about it. It seems like everyone thinks Solo was WAITING. Greedo was already going to smoke him and even had the gun pointed at him. Solo is still trying to shoot him first, he's stalling for time while he unhooks his blaster. I'm not terriably bothered by the change myself. Just the point that they tried to edit his head sideways and it looked like crap.

Lord of the Farce · Post by **Lord of the Farce** » 2004-09-28 12:49am

Actually, it is possible to interpret Greedo shooting first to make Han even more evil (in a way).

How, you ask? As an rogue experienced with being on both sides of a blaster barrel, Han should be able to tell whether Greedo's blaster was actually pointed at him, or pointed at the wall next to him. Which means that Han shot poor Greedo for firing what was clearly a warning shot.

Icehawk · Post by **Icehawk** » 2004-09-28 01:05am

Lord of the Farce wrote:Actually, it is possible to interpret Greedo shooting first to make Han even more evil (in a way).

How, you ask? As an rogue experienced with being on both sides of a blaster barrel, Han should be able to tell whether Greedo's blaster was actually pointed at him, or pointed at the wall next to him. Which means that Han shot poor Greedo for firing what was clearly a warning shot.

Thats actually kinda what I was thinking. Han made a smart ass remark and Greedo being the idiot he is honestly thought he could make Han piss himself by firing a close shot to his head in an attempt to show he means business. If you read Greedos background you should know he's an naive idiot who wants people to think he's really a badass.

FaxModem1 · Post by **FaxModem1** » 2004-09-28 01:28am

I think it becomes more of a Mexican standoff now, only with Greedo having rather poor aim.

PainRack · Post by **PainRack** » 2004-09-28 11:42am

So? Han is meant to be a scoundrel. That's his whole tag line in chasing after the princess, and his D&D affiliation.

Storywise, it mirrors the "redeeming" message of Luke Skywalker as Son of Suns. Luke Skywalker redemption of Han Solo in the begining of ROTJ, will mirror his similar redemption of Darth Vader.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2004-09-28 11:57am

Furthering Pain Rack's mirror analogy for the Han/Vader arcs, Harrison Ford wanted Solo to die because as he correctly pointed out, Once Luke rescued him from Jabba and he was redeemed and a full on good guy, there was nothing left for him to do. The producers and script writers agreed that Solo should die, in fact early on in ROTJ to add drama but GL disagreed. It would have been a perfect mirror to the Vader sitiuation, both were redeemed before they made the ultimate sacrifice.

Anyone else get the sense from the Solo character that he was sort of like a neutered dog in the movie, wandering around, eating things and getting fat and lazy?

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2004-09-28 12:02pm

PainRack wrote:So? Han is meant to be a scoundrel. That's his whole tag line in chasing after the princess, and his D&D affiliation.

I wouldn't invest any mental effort taking WotC's classes into consideration, because it was forced upon post hoc. Frankly the entire idea of applying D&D's class system onto Star Wars was rather idiotic, much like that of using D20 in the first place.

As for the Han/Greedo issue, from an editorial standpoint, I prefer the old one. But otherwise it doesn't bother me.

McC · Post by **McC** » 2004-09-28 12:11pm

The only real merit the original version has over the DVD version is that it's more abrupt and surprising. Sure, you know Han's going for his blaster, but then BOOM! Greedo's a smoking corpse. "Woah!" With the DVD version, it's not as big a surprise, but it works far better than the SE version. Watching it (the DVD) again last night, I found that simply restoring Han's original line (which was shortened and dubbed over the original footage for the SE) helped tremendously in selling the scene. Making Han dodge rather than frame-leap out of the way also helped the DVD version work.

And I think people are a bit jaded, too...I mean, he did flat-out kill the guy in a public establishment. Greedo shoots first, sure, but I don't think it (the current incarnation) does anything to detract from Solo's character as a rugged, cynical, out-for-number-one scoundrel.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2004-09-28 09:16pm

Stravo wrote:Anyone else get the sense from the Solo character that he was sort of like a neutered dog in the movie, wandering around, eating things and getting fat and lazy?

Yes. He's given a goddamn commando assignment - he's a fucking ace pilot and they expect him to succeed in a special forces strategic mission.

I don't think he should have been killed, but he shouldn't have been inserted into a role not meant for him. Hell, maybe he could have been assigned to the commandoes as a aerial asset, or something. Hell, anything. But leading the commandoes? On the ground? That makes no sense.

I also hated the fact that we don't see these commandoes in action. I would have liked to have seen Rebel snipers pick off stormtroopers, or a CQB fight in the bunker itself, but instead they get ambushed rediculously easily and as a result they and Han look like pussies. I wanted to see Rebel special forces storm the bunker's command centre and kill everyone, set up a perimetre, throw up the charges and blow the place to shit.

Lord of the Farce · Post by **Lord of the Farce** » 2004-09-28 09:51pm

Stofsk wrote:
Stravo wrote:Anyone else get the sense from the Solo character that he was sort of like a neutered dog in the movie, wandering around, eating things and getting fat and lazy?
Yes. He's given a goddamn commando assignment - he's a fucking ace pilot and they expect him to succeed in a special forces strategic mission. I don't think he should have been killed, but he shouldn't have been inserted into a role not meant for him. Hell, maybe he could have been assigned to the commandoes as a aerial asset, or something. Hell, anything. But leading the commandoes? On the ground? That makes no sense.

Knowing Han's EU-based background, it would have made plenty of sense... If we had seen Han steal one of those military speeders and out-fly the Imperials with it.

I wanted to see Rebel special forces storm the bunker's command centre and kill everyone, set up a perimetre, throw up the charges and blow the place to shit.

Come on, the only people who are suppose to be one-man-armies are the plot-important characters.