Size matters not

DoctorPhanan · Post by **DoctorPhanan** » 2004-09-27 07:01am

I dont know if this has been done before, and I wouldnt be surprised if it has, so please excuse me for being an ignorant n00b. But is it a no limits fallacy to belive that a Jedi can move a planet? or a sun? I know that there are no specific examples that this could happen. And I know that it was meant in a more metaphorical sense than a literal one, but I was just curious if it was possible. Say if a Jedi belived totally, and without arrogance and hyperbole, that he could do it, would he be able to?

Lord of the Farce · Post by **Lord of the Farce** » 2004-09-27 07:39am

It would most definitely fall under the definition of no-limit fallacy. But it could be explain as "size does not matter, but the natural state of things will resist your efforts".

Perinquus · Post by **Perinquus** » 2004-09-27 08:49am

I've always thought that the limit might be more psychological. Remember, doubt is the fatal flaw. Theoretically, "size matters not", and "the power to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force" etc., and the Force "binds the galaxy together", and is therefore all-pervasive. So theoretically, a Jedi master should be able to move planets by using the Force. But... If you just don't think you can do it, you can't do it.

Luke: I don't believe it!

Yoda: That, is why you fail.

A Jedi might accept that he can move something like a starfighter because "size matters not", as Yoda says. But when you start talking about objects that are orders of magnitude larger - planet-sized objects, for example - there might be a psychological barrier that simply makes it impossible for him to believe, no matter what he's told about size not mattering, that he, a mere individual, can actually a move a fucking planet. So deep down, he just doesn't believe he can do it, and thus, he can't do it.

Lord of the Farce · Post by **Lord of the Farce** » 2004-09-27 09:05am

Perinquus wrote:-snip
So deep down, he just doesn't believe he can do it, and thus, he can't do it.

Assuming that is actually true, I'd imagine that the most devastating weapon in the galaxy would be a bunch of high Force potential babies trained from birth to belive that they can erase planets at will.

Or the same who babies decide that they are fucking hungry!

Mad · Post by **Mad** » 2004-09-27 09:10am

Of course, Yoda could just be saying that to show Luke that the Force can let him do more than he thought he could. Which is more likely to inspire confidence: "Do it, you can. Have faith in you, I do."; Or "Size matters not. Judge me by my size, do you?"

With the first, Luke can protest. "I'm not that powerful yet. Sorry, Master..." With the other, Luke realizes that it can be done. Size does matter, certainly, but his limits were much higher than he thought. Something had to be done to break the mental block, and quickly.

Luke wasn't receiving normal Jedi training. He was being turned into a weapon to fight Vader and Palpatine. He needed a crash-course in what he was capable of, and accuracy didn't matter as much as effectiveness. Luke's training of other Jedi differed from the Old Republic Jedi because he was going by Yoda's crash-course.

That's my take on it, anyway.

Perinquus · Post by **Perinquus** » 2004-09-27 09:14am

Lord of the Farce wrote:
Perinquus wrote:-snip
So deep down, he just doesn't believe he can do it, and thus, he can't do it.
Assuming that is actually true, I'd imagine that the most devastating weapon in the galaxy would be a bunch of high Force potential babies trained from birth to belive that they can erase planets at will.

Or the same who babies decide that they are fucking hungry!

But the Jedi, of course, would never train infants for such a purpose. The Sith might, but I'm not sure what the EU sources have them capable of doing.

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2004-09-27 09:57am

DoctorPhanan wrote:I dont know if this has been done before, and I wouldnt be surprised if it has, so please excuse me for being an ignorant n00b. But is it a no limits fallacy to belive that a Jedi can move a planet? or a sun? I know that there are no specific examples that this could happen. And I know that it was meant in a more metaphorical sense than a literal one, but I was just curious if it was possible. Say if a Jedi belived totally, and without arrogance and hyperbole, that he could do it, would he be able to?

Well, there's a "Knights of the Old Republic" comic that had a Sith lord make two suns go nova...

Elheru Aran · Post by **Elheru Aran** » 2004-09-27 10:47am

Hmm... if it's only psychological that blocks them from doing so, then perhaps the "amulets" used in those comic books, I forgot the name but they had Exar Kun and Ulic Qel-Droma, a bunch of Sith stuff-- anyway, perhaps the Sith amulets actually were placebos, in a sense? You believe that they increase your power, and thus, your power IS increased... or do they work a different way, by focusing your Force powers through the amulet and magnifying it?

DPDarkPrimus · Post by **DPDarkPrimus** » 2004-09-27 11:16am

Perhaps the Shi'ar's Gladiator, then, is simply a being very attune to the Force?

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2004-09-27 11:20am

Lord Poe wrote:
DoctorPhanan wrote:I dont know if this has been done before, and I wouldnt be surprised if it has, so please excuse me for being an ignorant n00b. But is it a no limits fallacy to belive that a Jedi can move a planet? or a sun? I know that there are no specific examples that this could happen. And I know that it was meant in a more metaphorical sense than a literal one, but I was just curious if it was possible. Say if a Jedi belived totally, and without arrogance and hyperbole, that he could do it, would he be able to?
Well, there's a "Knights of the Old Republic" comic that had a Sith lord make two suns go nova...

"Tales of the Jedi," you mean. I think that was in The Sith War book.

McC · Post by **McC** » 2004-09-27 11:31am

I would point out that Yoda was somewhat fatigued subsequent to moving the X-wing. He sighs and has a very tired look (if a muppet can be described as looking tired...) to him when telling Luke "That is why you fail." He also seems to be taxed in AOTC (though significantly less so) when fighting Dooku and preventing Anakin and Obi-Wan from becoming pancakes.

Food for thought.

Mlenk · Post by **Mlenk** » 2004-09-27 11:55am

Spanky The Dolphin wrote: "Tales of the Jedi," you mean. I think that was in The Sith War book.

I think it was also mentioned by Brakiss in one of those Young Kedi Knights Books. Can't remember which one though. I haven't read those books in years.

Gustav32Vasa · Post by **Gustav32Vasa** » 2004-09-27 12:18pm

I thought that while it’s theoretical for a Jedi to move anything their bodies can’t handle that much power running through them. Anakin Skywalker was a powerful Jedi so he could move bigger things then a weaker Jedi because his body can handle more power.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2004-09-27 12:21pm

DPDarkPrimus wrote:Perhaps the Shi'ar's Gladiator, then, is simply a being very attune to the Force?

Don't make you hurt you

.

But all in all it does look to have a factor in how much one truly is believe he is capable. Control definitly seems to be the mitigating factor given that they show all the way up to the Emperor doing near DS1 feats but must maintain an immense amount of control.

IRG CommandoJoe · Post by **IRG CommandoJoe** » 2004-09-27 12:26pm

Gustav32Vasa wrote:I thought that while it’s theoretical for a Jedi to move anything their bodies can’t handle that much power running through them. Anakin Skywalker was a powerful Jedi so he could move bigger things then a weaker Jedi because his body can handle more power.

Imagine a Vader-sized Yoda then.

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2004-09-27 12:28pm

Gustav32Vasa wrote:I thought that while it’s theoretical for a Jedi to move anything their bodies can’t handle that much power running through them. Anakin Skywalker was a powerful Jedi so he could move bigger things then a weaker Jedi because his body can handle more power.

This is happened to Dorsk 81 in "Darksaber" when tried to move a fleet of SDs, he succeded, but died in the prosses.

IRG CommandoJoe · Post by **IRG CommandoJoe** » 2004-09-27 12:31pm

There was a bunch of other Jedi using him as a "channel" for their Force powers in addition to his own power.

Ekiqa · Post by **Ekiqa** » 2004-09-27 12:55pm

Lord Revan wrote:
Gustav32Vasa wrote:I thought that while it’s theoretical for a Jedi to move anything their bodies can’t handle that much power running through them. Anakin Skywalker was a powerful Jedi so he could move bigger things then a weaker Jedi because his body can handle more power.
This is happened to Dorsk 81 in "Darksaber" when tried to move a fleet of SDs, he succeded, but died in the prosses.

That was the whole Jedi Academy on top of the temples focusing their power through Dorsk. And weren't the temples supposed to be focii?

nightmare · Post by **nightmare** » 2004-09-27 02:40pm

Mlenk wrote:
Spanky The Dolphin wrote: "Tales of the Jedi," you mean. I think that was in The Sith War book.
I think it was also mentioned by Brakiss in one of those Young Kedi Knights Books. Can't remember which one though. I haven't read those books in years.

I've only seen one pic of what I think is that, and it featured a female Sith apprentice who ripped out the core of a star. Wonder if I can find that again..

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2004-09-27 04:54pm

If what I'm thinking of is the same thing, then it was one of the three leaders of the Krath that was doing it. Her name started with an A, I think.

EDIT: Aleema Keto, that's who it was. One of the elite of the Empress Teta system.

CUSWE wrote:Her knowledge of the Sith lore was augmented by the use of certain Sith weapons, one of which was the ancient starship used by Naga Sadow when he eluded the Old Republic in the Denarii System. She attempted to use Sadow's crystals to rip the core from a star and hurl it at the fleet. Although she succeeded in destroying most of the starships, she failed to control the power she wielded. The liberated solar core ignited the cores of the surrounding suns, and created an intense, multi-star supernova. The supernova engulfed three Auril Systems and the planet Ossus. It also killed Aleema and Crado, along with Dace Diath, Shoaneb Culu, and Qrrrl Toq.

Meest · Post by **Meest** » 2004-09-27 06:21pm

I think another issue is the actual need to see and comprehend what you are moving. Most of the time jedi close their eyes to move objects but there a few occasions of casually doing it open eyed. Anakin does it and most of the force pushes and sabre retrieval is done with eyes open. Just thinking its kinda hard to visualize (if they actually wish or think things to move) the other side of a planet for example. Wonder if any of these jedi have been taught detailed biology or physics, then they can understand inner workings of things and manipulate stuff that way. Though there are instances of that level of control, if it was done as a natural consquence of performing the feat or detailed knowledge I don't know.

Like the ripping suns apart stuff, was the person close? I only have the comic with the stars going nova and his ship was pretty close to the star. If I was on earth and wanted to tear the core out of the sun, how would I know how much was the core etc.

nightmare · Post by **nightmare** » 2004-09-27 07:16pm

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:If what I'm thinking of is the same thing, then it was one of the three leaders of the Krath that was doing it. Her name started with an A, I think.

EDIT: Aleema Keto, that's who it was. One of the elite of the Empress Teta system.

That must be it.

Meest wrote:Like the ripping suns apart stuff, was the person close? I only have the comic with the stars going nova and his ship was pretty close to the star. If I was on earth and wanted to tear the core out of the sun, how would I know how much was the core etc.

Really hard to tell, more like impossible from the memory of a single picture. But in astronomical terms, I would say it was close.. at least Mercury orbit. But that's just a poor guess based on a poor memory.

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2004-09-27 07:31pm

Lord of the Farce wrote:
Perinquus wrote:-snip
So deep down, he just doesn't believe he can do it, and thus, he can't do it.
Assuming that is actually true, I'd imagine that the most devastating weapon in the galaxy would be a bunch of high Force potential babies trained from birth to belive that they can erase planets at will.

Or the same who babies decide that they are fucking hungry!

Or a Vulcan with the force. Remember Spock? With pure logic, he really believed fake bullets couldn't harm him in an illusion, and they didn't. A Vulcan with the force, then, could wipe out fleets and rule the galaxy.

The Silence and I · Post by **The Silence and I** » 2004-09-27 08:20pm

Similar to why mental weapons are no longer useful against Vulcans, they can completely empty their minds of hostile thoughts.

DoctorPhanan · Post by **DoctorPhanan** » 2004-09-27 09:16pm

McC wrote:I would point out that Yoda was somewhat fatigued subsequent to moving the X-wing. He sighs and has a very tired look (if a muppet can be described as looking tired...) to him when telling Luke "That is why you fail." He also seems to be taxed in AOTC (though significantly less so) when fighting Dooku and preventing Anakin and Obi-Wan from becoming pancakes.

Food for thought.

I always thought that he was expressing his disappointment in Luke, for not beliving.

As for the second.... well... he did just finish a tiring and intense battle so that could partially explain it. But yeah I was pretty much thinking that the mental barriers were the reason that force users cant do impossible feats of power. But by following this logic, if, and I put incredible emphasis on the if, IF a force user could transcend beyond those barriers (even further than Jacen in Unifying Force) would it be possible for him/her to attain a Q-like status? (I know its the wrong forum, but it's more of a measure of power rather than a who vs who argument)

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