The Rebellion - terrorists or freedom fighters

[Sarevok]

It is hard to say. On one hand the Rebels are fighting an evil empire but they use tactics which kill many innocents. Take the Endor holocaust for instance. Also there has not been any polls to suggest whether the Rebels are supported by majority of the galactic population. So they might not have the support of the majority for what they are doing.

[Gandalf]

They (probably) cause less terror than the Empire. So I would not consider them terrorists.

Do they ever attack civilian targets?

[Spanky The Dolphin]

For what it's worth, Lucas said recently to Entertainment Weekly that the Empire considers them to be rebels and not terrorists.

[phongn]

They are insurrectionists, not terrorists. AFAIK, they limit their attacks entirely to government and military facilities and try their best not to hit any civilians in the process.

[Lord of the Farce]

Well if it's any indication, at least one "planetary liberator" who was (supposedly) not directly affiliated to the New Republic (but was supported by, nevertheless) quite happily declares that hitting military targets is inadequate. In fact comments that she would be quite happy to shoot random people and even innocent children who just happen to be the progeny of the wrong people, because "there are no innocent people here".

This person's name: Elscol Loro (The Bacta War, pg 142-143). And she implied that she had actually used this kind of methods on dozens of worlds. This is just the leader of a single group of "planetary liberators", probably just one of hundreds of others just like it.


EDIT: Minor wording corrections.

[Stofsk]

Lord of the Farce: that isn't at all surprising. Some guerrilla groups or cells use terrorist tactics in order to undermine the authority of the central regime. I think the important part to remember is that the rebels, for the most part, don't do this. An important aspect of guerrilla warfare is winning the support of the people the guerrillas are fighting for.

Also for what it's worth, the Rebel cell under Princess Leia established their base of operations on two remote, uninhabited worlds - an obvious effort to eliminate collateral damage. The Empire contructed the second Death Star in orbit of a 'sanctuary moon', knowing full well that if destroyed innocents would join it (this is assuming that the Empire knew about the Ewoks, which I forget if they did). This would be analogous to the time-honoured tradition of placing civilians inside military targets.

[Lord of the Farce]

Lord of the Farce: that isn't at all surprising. Some guerrilla groups or cells use terrorist tactics in order to undermine the authority of the central regime. I think the important part to remember is that the rebels, for the most part, don't do this. An important aspect of guerrilla warfare is winning the support of the people the guerrillas are fighting for.

The thing is, if the main body of the Rebellion does nothing to prevent such cells from popping up, and in fact support them kind of makes it hard for them to (honestly) condemn the Empire from having it's own "radicals" from doing similar.

Also for what it's worth, the Rebel cell under Princess Leia established their base of operations on two remote, uninhabited worlds - an obvious effort to eliminate collateral damage.

Or more likely, they rather be based at isolated nowhere, because of the much higher chances the average citizen on more populated worlds might see fit to report them.

The Empire contructed the second Death Star in orbit of a 'sanctuary moon', knowing full well that if destroyed innocents would join it (this is assuming that the Empire knew about the Ewoks, which I forget if they did). This would be analogous to the time-honoured tradition of placing civilians inside military targets.

"Sanctuary moon" IMHO sounds more like it's a wildlife preserve, than a place where they were aware of the existance of a whole lot of sentients.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Also for what it's worth, the Rebel cell under Princess Leia established their base of operations on two remote, uninhabited worlds - an obvious effort to eliminate collateral damage. The Empire contructed the second Death Star in orbit of a 'sanctuary moon', knowing full well that if destroyed innocents would join it (this is assuming that the Empire knew about the Ewoks, which I forget if they did). This would be analogous to the time-honoured tradition of placing civilians inside military targets.

From the Imperial point of view, Ewoks are probably rated sub-sentient. After all, the precise definition of sentient can vary greatly, and to the Imperials, the Ewoks could well have looked closer to dogs than to humans.

Besides, to them, they were building a station to enforce order, and they most certainly weren't planning to let it get destroyed. Therefore, they never intended to harm the Ewoks, whether they thought they were sentient one way or another.

If a instrument of order like a police station was put in a town, would you call it "Placing civilians near military targets". Even Army bases often have towns around them to support the military men. So it doesn't work.

The Rebels, on the other hand, cheated them into participating into an attack which will really only bring Ewok deaths without real, appreciable benefit to a simple people who really only want to live in the forest. Han Solo made up some BS about how the shield generator was sucking up their the planet's energy (even though the power plant most likely generated its own energy and had its expensive hypermatter fuel brought in from outside). Leia blathered up about trees. C3PO used his newfound influence to pretend to be a god and made it sound like going to war with the Empire (thus leading to the decimation of their own planet) is somehow right...

By the way, notice how the Rebels apparently only saved Ewoks from Bright Tree Village. Translation ... if you don't help us (or just didn't get the chance to try), we don't save you even if we could. Surely, there would be some Ewoks outside the shielded zone who aren't dead yet, and the Rebels would rate them sentient. Nope, no evidence they were saved...

There are real advantages to setting up operations on uninhabited planets in terms of security, thus I won't be calling the Rebel action a act of mercy. The Imperials will storm the Rebel facility if it was found in a city, but what choice do they have? Leave them alone just because of the chance of a bit of collateral damage?

The released information so far contains little evidence of Rebel terrorism. On the other hand, the Rebels (and/or LFL who translates the material) are well known to be concealers of information (liars in their own history books). See the DESB lying even over such a small thing as whether Alderaan had a shield. See the massive cover-up of the Endor Holocaust, to the point where the few sources that say the truth are discredited. Take Wedge's Gamble emphasizing it was in a Imperial Museum, which is supposed to mean, of course, that there was no chance anything in it being literally true. Take Paul Hidalgo's (a guy in the company that translates SW history into English) claim that anybody saying Endor was destroyed was Imperial propaganda.

When they occasionally admit to being wrong, like the ITW:OT, it never has the strength of the denial. If ITW:OT used the same strength of language on the Endor Holocaust as Paul Hidalgo it would have said, "Despite Rebel cover-ups and deliberate misdirections to the contrary, they were only able to save the Ewoks around Bright Tree Village. Millions of other Ewoks were dead, along with over 95% of animal species weights over ... etc, etc."

Honestly, with the Rebels lying to their own advantage and the guys supposedly translating the documents helping them, I won't say that the Rebels never did terrorism. Just that there is little direct evidence of it that is published

In any case, Rebel actions in Bacta War and Isard's Revenge are hardly above criticism, even if we discount thugs like Elscol Loro (honestly, millions of Imperials are probably saved thanks to her lack of control over anything like BDZ-capable ships). Once you cut past Stackpole's whitewashing, it is about Rebels being thieves. Isard's Revenge ... hell, even the Rebels knew their own case was pathetically weak, which of course didn't stop their self-righteous attitude...

As one review sarcastically put it:

Allston's Book #7 in this series ended with the start of "Courtship of Princess Leia", while Book #8 [return of his predecessor Stackpole] starts with the battle for the Bilbringi shipyards ["The Last Command"]. The Rogues have a small part in the battle, a refreshing look at them cut down to size again after they took over the "Big 7"'s role as "centre of the universe".

Thrawn dies, the Rebels win, and all is right in the Galaxy.

This time the New Republic's military does not face a terrible new threat - it IS a terrible new threat!

Yes, the major block to peace, prosperity and all-round happiness in the Star Wars Universe is now the former Rebel Alliance.

However, not to fear; the Rebel Scum have not won yet! An old adversary is back "from the dead" and may well pose a threat to them.

Yeah, right!

[Stofsk]

If a instrument of order like a police station was put in a town, would you call it "Placing civilians near military targets". Even Army bases often have towns around them to support the military men. So it doesn't work.

The Death Star is a terror weapon, pure and simple. It is not analogous to a police station or even military base, although it can fulfill the function of the latter. If we were to be serious the DS is analogous to a modern day nuclear missile silo, or SSBN, as their weaponry can achieve the same 'effect' as the superlaser does in the SW universe (replace shielded planet with city).

And your point about Rebel responsibility for the Ewok extinction is well taken, yet what choice did they have? Regardless, is there a reason the Emperor decided to have the DS2 remote built in orbit of a habitable world like Endor?

The thing is, if the main body of the Rebellion does nothing to prevent such cells from popping up, and in fact support them kind of makes it hard for them to (honestly) condemn the Empire from having it's own "radicals" from doing similar.

No argument from me; you're right. However from the perspective of the Rebels sometimes these tactics are unavoidable, even if they remain deplorable.

Or more likely, they rather be based at isolated nowhere, because of the much higher chances the average citizen on more populated worlds might see fit to report them.

Except the Rebel Alliance is a guerrilla force, and one of the principles of guerrilla warfare is to attain popular support. Leia's bases are an example of just one cell in the RA, there were others I am sure which operated in more 'urban' planetary environments. (if there wasn't I'd be genuinely surprised)

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

The Death Star is a terror weapon, pure and simple. It is not analogous to a police station or even military base, although it can fulfill the function of the latter. If we were to be serious the DS is analogous to a modern day nuclear missile silo, or SSBN, as their weaponry can achieve the same 'effect' as the superlaser does in the SW universe (replace shielded planet with city).

From the Imperial point of view, it is a 'weapon' of order. Whether the police or internal security or the military doing the job, a factor of fear is involved to maintain Order. The Death Star may have a somewhat greater fear factor, but it is still fundamentally, from the viewpoint of the Controlling Government building it, a weapon for Order, and perhaps the only way to impose order on a recalcitrant shielded planet.

A government that chooses not to impose Order beyond a minimum is good; a government that cannot impose Order is bad. Which is one of the reasons why the NR is a failure. They were stressed hard enough by the Yevetha, but the State clearly could not impose order within its institutions when faced with the Vong, thus leading to a shitload of un-necessary casualties.

And with shielded planets, the only way you can guarantee you can impose order against a recalcitrant shielded planet is with something like the superlaser.

And your point about Rebel responsibility for the Ewok extinction is well taken, yet what choice did they have? Regardless, is there a reason the Emperor decided to have the DS2 remote built in orbit of a habitable world like Endor?

Stop trying to push Rebel responsibility on the Empire. If they were just good little boys sitting at home and not trying to wreck the Order, the Death Star probably won't have to be built in the first place.

The Emperor has the right to build its weapon over a known inhabited world. They are the Government, with no reason to hide, unlike the sniping Rebel scum.

Well, since they are supposed to have scruples, the Rebels could actually ... umm ... you know, go as they originally planned, without support. Even if you assume the Endor Commando Team was made up of dolts who don't realize what happens when the Death Star blows up on these little Ewoks, they didn't have to trick them into kamikazeing into Imperial blaster fire.

While we are transferring blame, an idea I would like to throw about Alderaan comes up:

Leia always felt guilty because Tarkin told her she dictated the choice of target for the Death Star's first operational shot. Most people take it to be that scene where she lies to an Imperial officer and says the base was on Dantooine (itself a sure sign of Treason.) Everyone tells her, of course, that it is all Tarkin's fault (and the Emperor's to boot). But in another way, perhaps she did dictate the choice of target.

By the time of Rebel Dawn, Bail Organa was already trying to get his People to agree to armed revolt. And if the Empire's Intel network is worth a damn, it would have picked up some signs of that movement.

Enter Leia, who chooses to be a spy for the Rebel Alliance. Why? The Rebel Alliance is shorthanded but realistically it wouldn't be a case that one more is critical and there are no doubt some less active jobs. Someone so highly placed as a Princess and Daughter of a Senator does not have some freedoms a "lesser" person has.

A Alderaanian that gets caught as a Rebel is an 'isolated act' by a single deranged citizen. A Princess of Alderaan that gets caught, especially during a period where the government is likely already under suspicion, is not likely to go off as easily, and strongly implies that the government is supporting of Rebellion. The fact she may have a squad of Alderaanian marines and a ship claiming to be an Alderaanian consular ship only confirms that the government has already gone traitorous.

So now, marked as a Treasonous planet, the Death Star decides to move to Alderaan. This is the final loyalty test, and the idiot Alderaanians flunk it, by turning on a shield so powerful it will actually resist a measurable proportion of a 1E38J beam!!! Why don't they just go phone the Death Star and say "YES, EMPIRE! WE DEFY YOU!"

Now, the only question is, are the actions of Bail Organa supported by the majority of his people.

If yes, then the majority (over 50%) of the people of Alderaan are Traitors to the Empire. Traitors are to be executed. Well, it is kinda sad for the loyal minority, but Imperial justice is harsh I guess. And Leia Organa doomed them all by confirming to the Imperials just how wonderfully disloyal the government of Alderaan is.

If no, then Bail Organa and his family doomed a planet of unwilling people. And the only way to maintain order? Against a shield with 1E37J resistance? Against a Earth-sized planet supposedly with only 2 billion people (this is important, for it implies Alderaan can be self-sufficient in food and many other necessities, making a blockade ineffectual). And of course, Leia Organa told the Empire just how wonderfully loyal they are.

Just a thought.

[Lord Revan]

I think that the Main cells of Rebel Alliance (the future New Republic) wouldn't do acts that we(or the Empire) would consider as acts of terror (can you image an MonCal cruiser performing a BDZ on a planet loyal to the Emperor?)

[SylasGaunt]

The Emperor has the right to build its weapon over a known inhabited world. They are the Government, with no reason to hide, unlike the sniping Rebel scum.

Except they were hiding the DSII remember. Bothan spies dying to obtain the information? Station built in orbit of a moon who's only inhabitants aren't space capable?

[Iceberg]

Kazuaki:

Would you accept the use of nuclear weapons to destroy a rebellious city in your own country as a demonstration to other potentially rebellious cities?

[Mange]

While some people in the galaxy might believe that the Alliance is a band of terrorists because of the Imperial propaganda, there isn't much to support the notion that the Alliance encourages terrorism. I haven't read the Bacta War novel, but it doesn't appear as if her group was connected with the Alliance.
I have a few objections to this sentence: " the Rebel cell under Princess Leia established their bases of operation..."? I've always been under the impression that the bases at Yavin and Hoth was some sort of headquarters for the Alliance. It wouldn't make much sense placing such an important strategic target on a populated world, since it would become compromised sooner or later.
The Alliance must have had some criterias as to which individuals or groups that could be accepted into it in order to diminish the impact of Imperial propaganda.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Except they were hiding the DSII remember. Bothan spies dying to obtain the information? Station built in orbit of a moon who's only inhabitants aren't space capable?

'
The point here is that as the legitimate government, it can build the station over an inhabited planet and no one would be justified in saying that they were endangering the citizens. It makes little difference in secrecy whether they found a barren planet or Endor for the job, so I figure the Emperor just didn't think much about it, and had no reason to.

Would you accept the use of nuclear weapons to destroy a rebellious city in your own country as a demonstration to other potentially rebellious cities?

1) Your city analogy doesn't work because a planet has a degree of independence not found in cities. Most Terran cities do NOT have shields that would allow them to deflect any conceivable conventional artillery bombardment, is basically invulnerable to invasion, and mandates the use of the largest nuclear bombs just to get a good penetration. Most Terran cities can also be blockaded successfully because they are dependent on food, a situation that may very well not be the case for a mere 2 billion people living on the Earth-sized Alderaan.

2) If I seriously think it would be an effective demonstration, I'd bite the bullet and say yes. The Americans made a choice not too dissimilar to that with Hiroshima and Nagasaki. When I remember that just the Death Star alone would have a realistic population far exeeding the 2 billion of Alderaan, and the casualties involved in a unstopped full blown Galactic Civil War, a mere two billion is cheap. That sounds cold, but a leader has to know when he might have to bite a bullet.

Remember that Tarkin could well have been right. If the DS was not destroyed at the Battle of Yavin to a fluke, then the Rebel Alliance base would be destroyed, and between the sight of the Death Star and such a blow to the Alliance, it is very conceivable the Rebellion would collapse. Perhaps some very low-level activity in little cells would continue, but it is hardly inconceivable to say that the war would basically end then.

If it did end the war, 50 years later, I bet I'd be a hero, not a villain. That's how history works.

As an aside, some unthinking morons in the GFFA, apparently as a parallel to some people on Hiroshima, apparently thought perhaps if the Empire insisted on demonstrating its weapon, it can do so on a moon. The idea really works far better for Hiroshima than Alderaan, because with the strength of the best SW shields, there is a valid need to show the guys that even if you encase your planet in some of the best shields available, it will all be futile. That's not something that can be shown just by blowing up some moon. It also demonstrates resolve. If you keep shooting your gun in the air, eventually somebody might get the idea you don't dare shoot at them.

3) Honestly, one could say it is the Rebels that are now forcing the Empire into two bad choices. They could submit to the will of a single shielded planet - Alderaan. Or they can be tough to maintain Order. Tarkin chose to maintain Order. Because the Rebels won and got to write the history books, today we see what may have been a purely utilitarian decision that went awry as a totally immoral decision. But is the opposite state, the one chosen by the NR really better? A state where everyone is so un-utilitarian and goody-goody that they won't shoot through a hostage screen, which at most has a few million people, to potentially save the trillions in Coruscant?

[Bob the Gunslinger]

For what it's worth, Lucas said recently to Entertainment Weekly that the Empire considers them to be rebels and not terrorists.

Yeah, but in the same article George called the US a terrorist nation.

And he said that because he thought the american revolutionaries were terrorists... Because we all know that they sailed back to England to blow up women and children as opposed to attacking military targets here in what they thought of as their own land.

[DPDarkPrimus]

Even if the presence of the Ewoks was known of (doubtful, since the Troopers sure didn't seem to know about them), the Emperor wouldn't give a flying fuck, because he doesn't care much about non-human sentients anyways, and I'm sure he cares about primitive Stone Age teddy bears even less. So claiming that he purposely picked the location to ensure the devestation of a sentient species even if defeated is a bit of a stretch.

[Rogue 9]

Besides, to them, they were building a station to enforce order, and they most certainly weren't planning to let it get destroyed. Therefore, they never intended to harm the Ewoks, whether they thought they were sentient one way or another.

Problem: They were going to test-fire the station on the moon. This would damn well harm the Ewoks. When the first Death Star was built, it was test-fired on Despayre, killing all on the planet. It was a penal colony, so they didn't care much, but the Imperials still have a nasty habit of conducting live fire testing of their superweapons before taking them anywhere.

[Iceberg]

The Death Star is a terror weapon, pure and simple. It is not analogous to a police station or even military base, although it can fulfill the function of the latter. If we were to be serious the DS is analogous to a modern day nuclear missile silo, or SSBN, as their weaponry can achieve the same 'effect' as the superlaser does in the SW universe (replace shielded planet with city).

A government that chooses not to impose Order beyond a minimum is good; a government that cannot impose Order is bad. Which is one of the reasons why the NR is a failure. They were stressed hard enough by the Yevetha, but the State clearly could not impose order within its institutions when faced with the Vong, thus leading to a shitload of un-necessary casualties.

A government that chooses to impose Order not for the survival or safety of its people but simply for the sake of imposing Order is also bad. Many of Emperor Palpatine's policies were invoked not for the benefit of his people or for the furtherance of good governance, but simply to impose his New Order on the galaxy. The purpose of the Death Star was not to dissuade harmful activity or to police the galaxy, but to enslave its citizens. You will Obey, or you will Die.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Kaz, are you even familiar with the Tarkin Doctrine at ALL?

[phongn]

A government that chooses to impose Order not for the survival or safety of its people but simply for the sake of imposing Order is also bad. Many of Emperor Palpatine's policies were invoked not for the benefit of his people or for the furtherance of good governance, but simply to impose his New Order on the galaxy. The purpose of the Death Star was not to dissuade harmful activity or to police the galaxy, but to enslave its citizens. You will Obey, or you will Die.

IIRC, Publius described the ultimate outcome of Palpatine's government to be the sublimation of the galaxy's populace into Palpatine's will. The New Order was merely the first step in this master plan.

[Stravo]

Yeah, but in the same article George called the US a terrorist nation.

And he said that because he thought the american revolutionaries were terrorists... Because we all know that they sailed back to England to blow up women and children as opposed to attacking military targets here in what they thought of as their own land.

Yeah you're right, the revolutionaries only hounded and killed loyalists here in this country, taking their lands and forcing them to either go back to England or flee to Canada. Let's not try to whitewash what happened here in this country. Every revolution is nasty and does wicked things to its own citizens. We're merely lucky that our leader did believe in the ideals of the revolution and didn't simply decide to be president for life.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Lucas might have been going a bit far when calling the American Revolutionaries terrorists, considering the current sociopolitical mindset, but as Stravo said, he's really just saying the truth of the matter.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Besides, to them, they were building a station to enforce order, and they most certainly weren't planning to let it get destroyed. Therefore, they never intended to harm the Ewoks, whether they thought they were sentient one way or another.

Problem: They were going to test-fire the station on the moon. This would damn well harm the Ewoks. When the first Death Star was built, it was test-fired on Despayre, killing all on the planet. It was a penal colony, so they didn't care much, but the Imperials still have a nasty habit of conducting live fire testing of their superweapons before taking them anywhere.

WHere did you hear about that plan to fire on the Ewoks when it was done?

A government that chooses to impose Order not for the survival or safety of its people but simply for the sake of imposing Order is also bad.

Nobody ever claims the Empire was a saint. And didn't I already say that a government that chooses to impose as little Order as possible is good. Since it is obvious to even the most biased observer the Empire imposes more limits than what most would consider the minimum, I'm hardly giving points to the Empire for this one.

Kaz, are you even familiar with the Tarkin Doctrine at ALL?

I have a copy on my hard disk's ISB. Purely reading the quoted text (without reading the stuff the Rebels put on the top to "poison" the water), the proposed Doctrine is a plan to impose Order. It involves a strategy of pretending to be bigger than you are, and to build some symbols, but the ultimate objective is Order. It involves the use of Fear, but for people like Rebels and Criminals who do not Respect Authority, what means is there, from the Imperial POV, other than to use Fear. Some people are naturally Good. SOme people respect Authority, so they act Good. And some people have to be forcefully kept in line through Fear of the Consequences.

(As an aside, after reading the DSTC's "Design Flaws" section, which actually describes little of the sort, I've came to the dismal conclusion that the Rebels assign negative, unknowable motives to people in their texts).

It had nothing to do with the Ewoks and everything to do with Imperial SOP regarding Death Stars. I'm fairly certain I've read that it was solid fact on these boards, but even if not, it is fact that the first Death Star blew up its construction site as a test.

They didn't want to leave witnesses, and in any case, people in a penal colony are probably those of poor political reliability. Neither factor exists for some helpless, sub-sentient Ewoks. It is not called a Sanctuary Moon without reason.

[Rogue 9]

Besides, to them, they were building a station to enforce order, and they most certainly weren't planning to let it get destroyed. Therefore, they never intended to harm the Ewoks, whether they thought they were sentient one way or another.

Problem: They were going to test-fire the station on the moon. This would damn well harm the Ewoks. When the first Death Star was built, it was test-fired on Despayre, killing all on the planet. It was a penal colony, so they didn't care much, but the Imperials still have a nasty habit of conducting live fire testing of their superweapons before taking them anywhere.

WHere did you hear about that plan to fire on the Ewoks when it was done?

It had nothing to do with the Ewoks and everything to do with Imperial SOP regarding Death Stars. I'm fairly certain I've read that it was solid fact on these boards, but even if not, it is fact that the first Death Star blew up its construction site as a test.