STGOD 4 OOC Thread (part 2)

Dahak · Post by **Dahak** » 2004-09-28 05:30pm

Well, for one my Blood King, you're not the only one who's immortal, so we certainly wouldn't just forget

And the Accord has had a plan of their own, though it should be Marcao's honour to unveil it

Needless to say, if the shit hits the fan, I would have enacted my Operation Tranquility. Which, to readers of Night's Dawn, should be a dead give-away.

Agent Fisher · Post by **Agent Fisher** » 2004-09-28 05:31pm

offer rogue and his allies a place to hide and regroup and just survive

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-09-28 05:33pm

Dahak wrote:Well, for one my Blood King, you're not the only one who's immortal, so we certainly wouldn't just forget

And the Accord has had a plan of their own, though it should be Marcao's honour to unveil it

Needless to say, if the shit hits the fan, I would have enacted my Operation Tranquility. Which, to readers of Night's Dawn, should be a dead give-away.

Marcao let me in on two of the end results, but I don't know the entire plan.

Straha · Post by **Straha** » 2004-09-28 05:43pm

Spyder wrote: So I counter proposed to have the UN structure built on a space station. The official excuse was that it wouldn't disrupt operations on New Tortuga, the real reason is that if I acted quickly, Minmatar could build it, and possibly to some extent control it. The first step was to request permission to do the initial surveying, the next step was to have Dr Braddock say "ok, let's do it. Inform the New Tortugans of what we're planning." It's not entirely asking permission, it's just letting them know what's going on and waiting for an objection. I find the opt out approach is best when you want people to agree to stuff. A few days later "oh look, we actually happen to have a suitable station back home that just needs assembly, isn't that convenient?"

Actually my plans, for after the war, involved putting a quick boycott to the Unity station on the grounds that "Space Stations are dangerous, just look at what happened to all of those fancy pants space stations in this last war! We can't trust our leaders to that! We're more than willing to build a ground facility to house this, and propose a few changes to the idea along the way."

Half-size? What? We had fewer combat vessels, but what we had was more effective, and we had the Overseer. Even before the war we had enough muscle between the four of us to kill the Unification. We were only being sure and deploying a triple cross. I would estimate that your forces would be outnumbered by as much as 2:1 by that stage of the war and what you did have would be outclassed.

I know you were stronger, the point remains that you need numbers to control 70+ worlds, and keep them under enough cover to force a complete surrender from us while keeping enough strength on hand to keep the Veithan Accord, and whatever remained of the UPA off your backs.

Wishful thinking. There simply wouldn't be enough time for them to completely realign their policy. Even if they did try to stop us, we would still have ample time and resources to completely cripple the Unification while fighting a defensive war against the Accord.

Back before the rape I completley realigned my policy form neutrality to active expansion in the course of one post. The Unification would definetly be much worse for wear at the end of this, but we wouldn't be destroyed, and with the fleets that we did have we would be able to focus our fleets over worlds where the blockading force wouldn't be able to stop us, and free worlds/move troops that way. If we co-ordinate with the VA you're going to be stretched mighty thin trying to hold worlds, whilst you fight a defensive war over your own worlds. And if a fleet hits Eketrina this time, there's going to be no massive fleet of allies to stop it.

Not quite.

Not quite, there'd be winners, either you or the VA, there'd be relative losers, the Unification and the UPA, and then there'd be a whiped out of the galaxy loser, either you or the VA (whichever lost.) A cunning plan nonetheless, but it wouldn't have assured you total victory.

Hotfoot · Post by **Hotfoot** » 2004-09-28 06:03pm

Without getting too far into the plan, as it is Marcao's baby in this case, the Accord did have a course of action for this war.

Suffice to say that Accord sentiment towards the Ousters was never all that great. The UPA has always been a cause for concern of the Accord, and the Unification has long had good relations with the various Accord members.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2004-09-28 06:07pm

Pablo, Thirdfain:

That's a clever plan, a totally unworkable one but clever. You're assuming a devastated Unification which frankly wasn't going to happen. I told Thirdfain time and time again that I had my bet covered with the Nastar operation and I really did. If you'll look at my OOB you'll note that I could have lost the entire Nashtar invasion force and still come out ahead; the news sub-capitals were done and the capitals were a week or so away from completetion. So the Asgard would have been at full strength.

Pablo's striking down of Rogue;s interdictors would have made it even worse really, I would have massacred his fleet with out taking anything like proportional casualties. And of course Rogue's plan would have fragmented the Alliance; leaving more or less intact a bunch of powers that would have opposed this plan out of simple self interest in staying alive.

And with the Accord going for the throat at Eketrina apparently, you would have lacked the ships to really carry it out effectively. They might or might not have succeeded entirely, but it would have hurt you badly, I know that much.

It would have been a glorious battle but I highly doubt you would have carried it off. As Straha said, it most likely would have wound up in paralysis. As do most games that are too finely balanced.

Pablo Sanchez · Post by **Pablo Sanchez** » 2004-09-28 06:10pm

Straha wrote:I know you were stronger, the point remains that you need numbers to control 70+ worlds, and keep them under enough cover to force a complete surrender from us while keeping enough strength on hand to keep the Veithan Accord, and whatever remained of the UPA off your backs.

Your understanding of strategy needs a lot of work. Once the orbital installations and surface industry of those planets is neutralized or at least heavily damaged, they become non-entities. We don't need to capture and hold anything at all, because after we completed the destruction of your fleets we would have the ultimate form of control over your planets: the power to destroy them.

Back before the rape I completley realigned my policy form neutrality to active expansion in the course of one post.

You had suitable motivation to do so. Why would Marcao want to save you? Because you were so nice to him before? Because he's afraid of too much power concentrating in the hands of the Axis? You're forgetting that, had we actually played this out, no one would have been aware that we were planning to lay the Unification low until we had already done it. They might guess that it was our intention, but it would be a guess that flew in the face of the evidence:
The Ousters had just exited a war and turned on their former allies because they attempted to exploit a situation for territorial advantage--their official statements and the evidence of their actual actions would show that the Ousters were leading an alliance that was endeavoring to maintain the balance of power.

Not quite, there'd be winners, either you or the VA, there'd be relative losers, the Unification and the UPA, and then there'd be a whiped out of the galaxy loser, either you or the VA (whichever lost.) A cunning plan nonetheless, but it wouldn't have assured you total victory.

Your viewpoint on the scenario depends on several huge, unwarranted assumptions. So when I said "not quite," I meant "not at all."

Pablo Sanchez · Post by **Pablo Sanchez** » 2004-09-28 06:14pm

Stormbringer wrote:And with the Accord going for the throat at Eketrina apparently, you would have lacked the ships to really carry it out effectively. They might or might not have succeeded entirely, but it would have hurt you badly, I know that much.

Er... Half the Vampire fleet, the entire Overseer fleet, and significant fleet elements of the Ousters were lying in wait very near Eketrina just in case someone attempted an end run on that system. Any attack on it would have ended in a total massacre, with the "invaders" being compressed between a very large fleet and the system's fixed defenses, with Ouster interdictors preventing any flight.

EDIT:
The widespread assertions that you guys would have simply seen through all this and instantly taken the correct action to defuse our plans amuse me, considering that we played you like fiddles for around four months without any of you picking up a single blip on the sonar.

Agent Fisher · Post by **Agent Fisher** » 2004-09-28 06:14pm

well, there are some interesting plans that were in the works.

I bet i could have stayed hidden.

Hotfoot · Post by **Hotfoot** » 2004-09-28 06:19pm

Pablo Sanchez wrote:Er... Half the Vampire fleet, the entire Overseer fleet, and significant fleet elements of the Ousters were lying in wait very near Eketrina just in case someone attempted an end run on that system. Any attack on it would have ended in a total massacre, with the "invaders" being compressed between a very large fleet and the system's fixed defenses, with Ouster interdictors preventing any flight.

Any attack? I think you underestimate Accord tricksiness and resolve.

EDIT:
The widespread assertions that you guys would have simply seen through all this and instantly taken the correct action to defuse our plans amuse me, considering that we played you like fiddles for around four months without any of you picking up a single blip on the sonar.

I am here, smirking and waiting for Marcao.

Dahak · Post by **Dahak** » 2004-09-28 06:20pm

I still would have loved to come knocking on Rogue's doorstep and do some geographical readjustments to his planet...

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2004-09-28 06:26pm

Pablo Sanchez wrote:Er... Half the Vampire fleet, the entire Overseer fleet, and significant fleet elements of the Ousters were lying in wait very near Eketrina just in case someone attempted an end run on that system. Any attack on it would have ended in a total massacre, with the "invaders" being compressed between a very large fleet and the system's fixed defenses, with Ouster interdictors preventing any flight.

I don't know what the Accord sent. But they seemed fairly confident about the whole thing. And whatever was left of the Overseer, well that didn't amount to much.

Pablo Sanchez wrote:EDIT:
The widespread assertions that you guys would have simply seen through all this and instantly taken the correct action to defuse our plans amuse me, considering that we played you like fiddles for around four months without any of you picking up a single blip on the sonar.

I didn't say I saw all that. I did figure you and the Etern were up to something; but that was a given right from the start and didn't require forsight. I was somewhat wrong about just what I'll readily grant you that much.

But I do know that I simply took precautions because I wasn't about to fatally weaken myself, and if you'll look the numbers they do rather bear me out. I had sixteen capital ships just a hair shy of finishing up and I HAD finished all the rest of that build. Which more than covered the Combined Fleet. And again, your outlawing of Rogue's interdictors meant that I would take much lighter casualties than I orginally thought I would.

All in all, I sure as hell wasn't about to trust that we would be left alone post war. I figured the Accord was more likely, but I can point missles your way just as easily.

Agent Fisher · Post by **Agent Fisher** » 2004-09-28 06:36pm

while you guys would have been fighting, i would have been building up my forces and making my worlds unbreakable fortresses.

Pablo Sanchez · Post by **Pablo Sanchez** » 2004-09-28 06:43pm

Stormbringer wrote:I don't know what the Accord sent. But they seemed fairly confident about the whole thing. And whatever was left of the Overseer, well that didn't amount to much.

Considering that we had preserved virtually his entire core territory and bought him months of undisturbed buildup time, and that our fleet would also include the Etern Collective, I'd say he would amount to a fair bit.

But I do know that I simply took precautions because I wasn't about to fatally weaken myself, and if you'll look the numbers they do rather bear me out. I had sixteen capital ships just a hair shy of finishing up and I HAD finished all the rest of that build. Which more than covered the Combined Fleet. And again, your outlawing of Rogue's interdictors meant that I would take much lighter casualties than I orginally thought I would.

Okay, fine. The Accord was going to suddenly grow gigantic brains to instantly figure out what was going on, and your new fleet would have been sufficient by itself to hold off a full strength navy and three slightly depleted nations.

Pablo Sanchez · Post by **Pablo Sanchez** » 2004-09-28 06:45pm

Hotfoot wrote:I am here, smirking and waiting for Marcao.

Let me guess:
When I let Marcao in on the secret several weeks ago in an effort to keep you two from quitting, the Veithans abruptly and completely changed their plans and goals.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2004-09-28 06:48pm

Pablo Sanchez wrote:Considering that we had preserved virtually his entire core territory and bought him months of undisturbed buildup time, and that our fleet would also include the Etern Collective, I'd say he would amount to a fair bit.

So in other words you let Nitram run two whole nations.... That's fair.

Any one can weild a big stick when you've got that kind of advantage.

Pablo Sanchez wrote:Okay, fine. The Accord was going to suddenly grow gigantic brains to instantly figure out what was going on, and your new fleet would have been sufficient by itself to hold off a full strength navy and three slightly depleted nations.

I don't know, from talking with Marcao he had a lot more figured out than you think. At least enough to go in packing major heat.

And I didn't say that that fleet alone would do it. But it would cover any potential combat losses leaving me with a still overstrength fleet.

Dahak · Post by **Dahak** » 2004-09-28 06:48pm

Pablo Sanchez wrote:
Hotfoot wrote:I am here, smirking and waiting for Marcao.
Let me guess:
When I let Marcao in on the secret several weeks ago in an effort to keep you two from quitting, the Veithans abruptly and completely changed their plans and goals.

I never had any plans of quiting...

Hotfoot · Post by **Hotfoot** » 2004-09-28 06:56pm

Pablo Sanchez wrote:Let me guess:
When I let Marcao in on the secret several weeks ago in an effort to keep you two from quitting, the Veithans abruptly and completely changed their plans and goals.

Or it could be that you and Thirdfain have vastly misjudged Accord plans and goals. You lot weren't the only ones running shadow games.

Pablo Sanchez · Post by **Pablo Sanchez** » 2004-09-28 06:58pm

Stormbringer wrote:So in other words you let Nitram run two whole nations.... That's fair.

Any one can weild a big stick when you've got that kind of advantage.

One nation, actually. He converted most everything he had free to hand into the Etern. Together they added up to slightly less than one nation.

I don't know, from talking with Marcao he had a lot more figured out than you think.

I can guess how much he had figured out, because I told it to him when he was threatening to quit. I'll be rather disappointed if he decided that it was okay to use this out-of-character knowledge to drastically alter his in character behavior.

Hotfoot · Post by **Hotfoot** » 2004-09-28 07:01pm

Pablo Sanchez wrote:I can guess how much he had figured out, because I told it to him when he was threatening to quit. I'll be rather disappointed if he decided that it was okay to use this out-of-character knowledge to drastically alter his in character behavior.

You're guessing wrong. The Accord has been plotting against the Ousters since long before this current event.

The opening for this shift happened just prior to the event which you are speaking of, if I am not mistaken.

Thirdfain · Post by **Thirdfain** » 2004-09-28 07:02pm

Anything short of sending 2/3rds of your combined fleets to Eketrina would have ended in disaster.

Pablo Sanchez · Post by **Pablo Sanchez** » 2004-09-28 07:06pm

Hotfoot wrote:You're guessing wrong. The Accord has been plotting against the Ousters since long before this current event.

The opening for this shift happened just prior to the event which you are speaking of, if I am not mistaken.

Oh. So you were plotting against him all along, and the opening for your effort happened just before the Unification went to war with the UPA. And then you guys said you were going to quit, and I had to beg Marcao to keep playing. And then you decided not to, and then your shadow game continue. I see.

In hindsight, the plan might have failed. I think that you guys would have screwed yourselves over again and given us ample opportunity to succeed, but we'll never know for sure. I'm kind of sick of arguing this.

Agent Fisher · Post by **Agent Fisher** » 2004-09-28 07:07pm

Pablo Sanchez wrote:Okay, fine. The Accord was going to suddenly grow gigantic brains to instantly figure out what was going on, and your new fleet would have been sufficient by itself to hold off a full strength navy and three slightly depleted nations.

I could have always joined them, giving them a another Full 2/3 power Navy

Pablo Sanchez · Post by **Pablo Sanchez** » 2004-09-28 07:10pm

Agent Fisher wrote:I could have always joined them, giving them a another Full 2/3 power Navy

Remember when you wanted to join the UPA the very instant you entered the game, and we told you "no" because it flew in the face of game balance to abruptly introduce a new member from nowhere into an alliance? Also, try not to forget that you were already in bed with Rogue 9, who was the sworn enemy of the Unification. You can't be part of two alliances who happen to be at war at the time.

Dahak · Post by **Dahak** » 2004-09-28 07:10pm

Thirdfain wrote:Anything short of sending 2/3rds of your combined fleets to Eketrina would have ended in disaster.

Whoever said we wouldn't have?