Sci-fi religion

[AdmiralKanos]

Am I the only one who finds sci-fi religions to be interesting? As far as the "Big Two and a Half" goes, I surmise:

1. Star Wars: Taoism (obviously). The universe is bound together by an unseen energy field rather than a personal God. Unlike a personal God, it has no motives or goals of its own, nor does it punish unbelievers. Morality is based on taoist principles of pacifism (dark-side = aggression = bad, light side = defense and pacifism = good). Issues of creation vs evolution are never addressed.
2. Star Trek: New-age spiritualism, creationism, and communism. The universe is full of gods (ie- "godlike beings"), each with his own motives and goals. We were created by an angelic "progenitor race" billions of years ago rather than evolving naturally. We have ethereal souls. Evolution is directed by genetic coding rather than environmental stimuli, thus supporting "intelligent design" creationism. Morality is based on legalism and fascism: obedience to authority, loyalty to the state, and the rule of law all supersede any other moral considerations.
3. Babylon5: Judeo-Christianity. Shadows vs Vorlons = Satan vs God = Chaos vs Order. The Shadows encourage independence of action and thought, while the Vorlons promote stifling totalitarian rule. Like Satan, the Shadows try to tempt people into serving them and turning away from Order (Sheridan looking out from the high buildings on Za'ha'Dum invoked imagery of Jesus on the mountain). Like Jesus, Sheridan dies and rises again. Like God, the Vorlons work through their anointed "chosen people" (the Minbari) and when frustrated, they resort to genocidal massacres. Creationist mentality is heavily promoted; there is a "first one" (Lorien, who naturally appears to be male), who was the first living being in the galaxy and who appeared as a fully formed bipedal humanoid instead of a sub-bacterial microbe. It is strongly implied that all religions are based on actual visitations and events rather than superstition and myth. The Christian belief that faith is inherent to man is affirmed when all humans instantly recognize Kosh regardless of whether they are personally religious.

Just food for thought.

[Stormbringer]

there is a "first one" (Lorien, who naturally appears to be male),

"He" is a non-corporeal energy being. "He" chose that for the sake of conviniece. As far as I know me never saw Lorien's private part so who's to say "he" was really a he in his chosen form.

a fully formed bipedal humanoid instead of a sub-bacterial microbe

A side from the non-corporeal energy being thing, a bacteria can't become intelligent. No matter what trek say it's ain't gonna happen. Intelligence needs a certain amount of mass to work with. Bacteria don't have the space in their bodies to support the necessary brain mass. Ergo, they arenever going to become intelligent.

The Christian belief that faith is inherent to man is affirmed when all humans instantly recognize Kosh regardless of whether they are personally religious.

Actually, its because the Vorlons programmed us to respond to their telepathy. It's mentioned enough times, you should know that.

[Peregrin Toker]

[*]Star Trek: New-age spiritualism, creationism, and communism. The universe is full of gods (ie- "godlike beings"), each with his own motives and goals. We were created by an angelic "progenitor race" billions of years ago rather than evolving naturally. We have ethereal souls. Evolution is directed by genetic coding rather than environmental stimuli, thus supporting "intelligent design" creationism. Morality is based on legalism and fascism: obedience to authority, loyalty to the state, and the rule of law all supersede any other moral considerations.

Star Trek's religion is not New-Age spiritualism.... it is the.....

Raëlian Movement!!!

(Watch the TOS episode "Who Mourns For Adonais" if you don't believe me!!!)[/url]

[Edi]

What really annoys me is that too often all religions in sci-fi are too monolithic. If an alien species has a religion, it is invariably given that the species cannot have any other additional religions. And all aliens of that species are naturally adherents of said religion. Strikes me as very plastic. All we have to do is take a look at human history and see the incredible variety of religions that have flourished at one time or another.

This was especially apparent in that B5 episode where all of the Council species displayed their religions for the benefit of the others, and humans had to bring in dozens if not hundreds of priests of differing religions. Why were there no such divisions among the others? There in all likelihood should have been. Especially among the Minbari and the Narn because they took their religions very seriously, and that tends to lead to conflicts over what is dogmatically correct and what is heresy.

Edi

[Smiling Bandit]

Well, I think that episode wasn't really there to comment on the Aliens.

It was a comment on humankind. A difficult distinction and not one that everyone would get, but there it is. You are correct, certainly, although I can't fault the poor writers for not trying to figure out 20 different religions for each race.

Did anyone see that lovely ending to one episode with some of the crew singing an old spiritual while Londo's enemy was being chased down by the Narns for his crimes? I loved that ending!

[Needa]

Yes, I like it too. If I remember well, the song was like "There is no place to hide!" And the poor Centauri running with all those Narns everywhere...

[Shadow WarChief]

Uh Edi, the narn and the minbari each have multiple religions.

The minbari had 3 for their whole 3 is sacred bit.

And the narn have an undetermined amount. All I remember is that they choose their religion after they turn 10 years old or something along those lines.

[Master of Ossus]

SW also has some Christian themes running through it. Note how the weapon of angels is a flaming sword (like Jedi Knights). Note how Anakin is clearly a Christ figure (birth, crucifixion, etc.). Note how the Emperor can be seen as Lucifer, particularly in a Muslim way (great tempter).

[Renewed_Valour1]

Am I the only one who finds sci-fi religions to be interesting?

Sure. Andromeda's Wayism should make the list.

[Darth Wong]

Actually, I was thinking of the religious themes they were promoting to their viewers, not the religious beliefs held by the fictional characters in the shows.

[Howedar]

To be honest, ST is the only one that I find preachy in the slightest. Whatever the beliefs in SW, B5, or anything else, I don't see that they seek to promote said religion to the audience.

[Darth Wong]

One can promote a religious belief without necessarily being preachy. For example, if you show all of the heroes holding certain values and all of the villains holding other values, you are conditioning the audience to associate the hero's values with morality and nobility.

You don't need a preachy soliloquy to send messages (although Trek goes this extra mile anyway, because the shows are increasingly being written for infantile minds and they're worried you won't get the message unless they pound it into your brain).

ST, SW, and B5 all promote various ideas (with B5 being the most interesting in some ways because of the obvious parallels to Judeo-Christian thought; and its contrast between Christian imagery and a seemingly contrary message that we don't need gods any more).

[Enlightenment]

ST, SW, and B5 all promote various ideas (with B5 being the most interesting in some ways because of the obvious parallels to Judeo-Christian thought; and its contrast between Christian imagery and a seemingly contrary message that we don't need gods any more).

B5 was certainly rather conflicted on this matter, particularly when the religious/metaphysical/telepathic/telekenetic aspects started to glob together and aquire insane power levels. What's most awkward about B5's treatment of religion, however, are the overtones of manfest destiny and the 'white man's burden,' both of which have at times been justified IRL on the grounds of Christian religious belief. Unfortunately the writing was bad enough in a lot of places (e.g. in the way the Minbari religion melted away with nary a whimper) that it's rather difficult to tell if the series had any specific message above and beyond 'Hi, I'm JMS and I have an ego the size of a VLCC.

[Peregrin Toker]

ST, SW, and B5 all promote various ideas (with B5 being the most interesting in some ways because of the obvious parallels to Judeo-Christian thought; and its contrast between Christian imagery and a seemingly contrary message that we don't need gods any more).

Atheistic christianity?? Sounds very Raëlian to me.

[Shadow WarChief]

are the overtones of manfest destiny

namely?

and the 'white man's burden,'

namely?

both of which have at times been justified IRL on the grounds of Christian religious belief.

Which JMS doesn't hold.

[AdmiralKanos]

Atheistic christianity?? Sounds very Raëlian to me.

Those Raelian guys are pretty funny. I guess they've never heard of Occam's Razor. I've always been amazed at the people who don't believe in divine creation or evolution (aka "random evolution", to use their misleading moniker), and who think that they're geniuses because they've found a middle ground: "we were created by aliens". Don't they realize that even if true, this would only export the question of creation vs evolution to an alien species? Dumb-asses ...

[AdmiralKanos]

are the overtones of manfest destiny

namely?

and the 'white man's burden,'

namely?

The humans are the only species in the galaxy with any interest in peace. Moreover, they seem to be the only species which operates democratically. The Minbari have their religious theocracy and stilted "castes", the Narn have an aristocracy and royal family by bloodline, the Centauri have a neo-Roman society, etc. There is a lot of pre-destiny in the entire Shadow War arc, revolving around humanity and Captain Sheridan, who actually becomes a Christ figure of sorts (if you can't see the parallels, you're either blind or deliberately refusing to recognize them).

They feel that they are burdened with the task of bringing their values to the perpetually bickering, culturally backward species who make up the rest of the younger races, hence Babylon5 and later, Sheridan's federation. This is somewhat similar to the European belief that they were bringing civilization to the savage masses, although it is not as malevolent (they aren't invading after all; it's more subtle).

both of which have at times been justified IRL on the grounds of Christian religious belief.

Which JMS doesn't hold.

You don't have to be a devout Christian in order to subconsciously absorb the Christian values which permeate American popular culture and society.

[Mr Bean]

Christian vaules adopted from Jewish Law, Adopted From Pagen Religions
(With the added NO PAGENs of course by people but the basic don't do this do do that was around long before 0 AD

[Crown]

I believe JMS main message when dealing with the Shadow/Vorlon, Satan?God issue was that we do not need them anymore.

The Centauri have a Parthenon of Gods.

While we point out the 'subtle' relations between B5 and religion, what about the obvious message? Many times especially in the last two seasons, characters stopped refering to their dieties and started to referring to the 'Univers' as a conscience being who was being taught by us?

[Enlightenment]

I believe JMS main message when dealing with the Shadow/Vorlon, Satan?God issue was that we do not need them anymore.

While that message is supported here and there in individual episodes, it is utterly and completely invalidated by the indisputable fact that damn near everyone was much better off before Sheridan started asking too many questions about the gods--questions which lead to their departure--rather than after.

[Darth Wong]

I believe JMS main message when dealing with the Shadow/Vorlon, Satan?God issue was that we do not need them anymore.

That's one way to interpret it. On the other hand, it also validated religions by implying that all of the ancient myths are based on real demigods (albeit with hidden motives) rather than being mere superstition. In other words, it simultaneously says that we don't need gods any more, but it also says that the gods were real, and that life is tough without them.

The Centauri have a Parthenon of Gods.

I believe you mean "pantheon". The Centauri also have a ridiculous nobility caste system, as well as slavery and bad hair.

While we point out the 'subtle' relations between B5 and religion, what about the obvious message? Many times especially in the last two seasons, characters stopped refering to their dieties and started to referring to the 'Univers' as a conscience being who was being taught by us?

You are reading too much into the fact that they referred to the universe itself as a sentient entity. They might have been speaking figuratively (just as I sometimes refer to Fate even though I don't believe in it). Besides, I don't recall anyone ever pointing out that their experiences with the Shadows and Vorlons led them to abandon their religious beliefs, even though it was made clear that their religious beliefs were actually deceptive stories implanted by the Vorlons and their servants.

In fact, while I would have expected at least a few people to say "holy shit, I've been worshipping a fucking Vorlon myth my whole life; those bastards have been fucking with our culture!", the revelation that the Vorlons were behind everyone's religious beliefs seemed to strengthen their faith. B5 was regarded as "holy ground" by many races after Kosh revealed himself, remember?

[Shadow WarChief]

Yes Mike, most alien species then considered B5 holy ground. But NOT because Kosh appeared, but because "insert alien deity here" appeared. When he revealed himself, only Delenn and Sheridan knew it was Kosh, and they then shared it with the rest of the command staff.

They never told the rest of the younger races to stop the anarchy (which they were fighting against) that would have resulted from

"holy shit, I've been worshipping a fucking Vorlon myth my whole life; those bastards have been fucking with our culture!"

[Shadow WarChief]

The humans are the only species in the galaxy with any interest in peace.

Yes that explains why there were a quarter of a million humans on Bablyon 5 with no alien species supporting it....[/heavy sarcasm]

Moreover, they seem to be the only species which operates democratically.

Yeah, and they ended up being turned into an Orwellian dictatorship. That's real democracy...

Which was created by a human. no points there.

Interesting. But wrong. While yes, the ISA was the dream of a human, the Earth Alliance did not join the ISA until the entire league of non-aligned worlds had already created it.

The Minbari
The Narns
The Centauri
The Gaim
The Pakmara
The Drazi
The Vree
The Brakiri
The Dubai
etc...

In fact, it was the ISA that came to the EA with the invitation of membership. The humans were relatively late arrivals to the organization.

[Enlightenment]

The humans are the only species in the galaxy with any interest in peace.

Yes that explains why there were a quarter of a million humans on Bablyon 5 with no alien species supporting it....[/heavy sarcasm]

Funny that in the eons of what passed for galactic civilization no one else ever tried a peacemaking project until EA showed up.

The Minbari have their religious theocracy and stilted "castes",

Which was created by a human. no points there.

The Minbari caste system predated Sinclair/Valen.

In any case democracy would hardly work in Minbari society anyway given that their civilization was moulded to serve the needs of the Vorlons. A nation of followers cannot lead itself.

Actually, the centaur probably do have some modicum of a democracy, most notable in the existance of a prime minister. Yes the emperor wields the majority of executive power, but must not a parliament exist at least in some form for there to be a prime minster?

The existance of a parliament does not imply democracy by default. Read some history on the early days of the English parliament and you'll see what I mean.

I've never really quite gotten this...why is that that whenever someone returns from the dead, they're immediately identified with Christ? Godzilla has returned from the dead numerous times yet I've not heard a single Godzilla=jesus person...

No one in a 'Zilla flic ever refers to 'zilla as god, for one thing....

The ISA was to get all of the younger races, including the EA, to finally work together, not for the EA to reign moral supreme over the Galaxy

Who said anything about EA ruling supreme over the galaxy? The ISA only happened because of 1) heavy-handed authorial intervention, and 2) because a bunch of humans tought the savage aliens how to work together.

[Edi]

SWC, it's been a while since I've watched B5, and now that you mentioned it, I do remember the Narn having more than just the G'Quan religion, but that does not invalidate my point. Their religion has much in parallel with Buddhism and its various sects, with the G'<insert name here> being analoguous to the various Lamas (e.g. Dalai Lama, Panchen Lama etc), which makes their differing religions no more than different sects of the same one. We don't actually have much hard data on it, because it's mentioned as a side note, but the parallels are too obvious to ignore.

I won't analyse B5, SW or ST religion any further, because everyone else seems to have done most of the work while I was in Tallinn during the weekend.

Another interesting question about sci-fi religions in general: Why is it that in many series several thousand years in the future we have the same human religions as now? No new ones? (For the most part anyway.) This is something that would be interesting to see, several different competing religions, including new ones (or perhaps resurrected old ones). And why is it that it always seems religions are limited by species boundaries? I can think of several ways beings of one species could adopt the religion(s) of another, provided there is something compatible. Religions where the object of worship is an ideal or an incarnation of an idea instead of a specific supernatural being or god come to mind.

Any thoughts?

Edi