Official Presidential Debate Reaction Thread

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2004-09-30 11:29pm

Iceberg wrote:I'm listening to Jon Stewart interviewing Rudy Giuliani, and I can't help but wonder...

Is it my imagination or does Giuliani have a lisp?

Giuliani always had a lisp. It was more pronounced years ago as a mayor. Howard Stern used to make fun of it relentlessly especially during his first mayoral run against David DInkins, making him sound more like Daffy Duck.

Iceberg · Post by **Iceberg** » 2004-09-30 11:31pm

SirNitram wrote:
Iceberg wrote:Preliminary polls indicate a considerable bounce for Kerry.
By which group, if you know?

Two separate ones, one by ABC and one by CBS.

Kon_El · Post by **Kon_El** » 2004-09-30 11:33pm

That "during the debate" poll with the sliding bar was hilarious. They showed some old woman trying to show her feelings during the debate with a keyboard.

Far too complicated

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2004-09-30 11:37pm

The MSNBC internet poll is 70/30 in favor of Kerry. The CNN internet poll is about 80/20 in favor of Kerry. But those polls aren't the most reliable. Still, that's a pretty huge disparity.

Kamakazie Sith · Post by **Kamakazie Sith** » 2004-09-30 11:38pm

jcow79 wrote:Is it just me or did Bush sound like some kind of preacher in his closing statement? Was was all that stuff about the "mighty mountain"?

Results from prior drug use? I dunno, but it was silly though.

Kamakazie Sith · Post by **Kamakazie Sith** » 2004-09-30 11:39pm

Stravo wrote:
Princess Vera wrote:"The future belongs to freedom"... What?
You know it would be nice to not have these two denegrate the word every chance they get.

Too late....

jegs2 · Post by **jegs2** » 2004-09-30 11:41pm

Durandal wrote:The MSNBC internet poll is 70/30 in favor of Kerry. The CNN internet poll is about 80/20 in favor of Kerry. But those polls aren't the most reliable. Still, that's a pretty huge disparity.

First, they're internet polls, not scientific. Second, they're likely polling on who won the debate, not who will win the election. Few (if any) expected Bush to do well against Kerry, the seasoned debator.

Post by **Coyote** » 2004-09-30 11:44pm

Well, I had night duty here and a TV, so I got to see this, and I Am glad I did.

LIke most, I think Bush started strong and hammered consistancy-- he was in his element. Kerry hemmed and hawed and came off as a waffle. But somewhere in there Bush's lack of public speaking ability began to rattle him, especially against Kerry's ability to stay cool and composed.

Kerry delivered his words very well and did not come off too Stentoran or graven. But I do not feel as though he had a clear, consistent message to deliver wrapped up in those smooth words. He contradicted himself and overplayed his "I was in Vietnam, you know" maneuver. He said he had "plans" to deal with Bush's mistakes but very quickly ran through them then dropped it-- help me out here:

He would increase the number and training of Iraqi security forces (which is being done now, so in effect, no real change).
He would get the UN involved and he would get the allies involved (but he doesn't say how).
he had two other points....?

Bush had a lot of potential ammunition to use but he walked away from almost all of it to embrace the mantra of "you keep changing positions". A couple times its effective, but twelve times is repetitive and reveals a lack of any other material. He became visibly flustered and had that 'deer-in-the-headlights' look more than once.

Both of them made the same serious, serious fuck-up. They both said that a free and democratic Iraq will provide security and stability (and so on) to the world, the region... and to Israel. Stupid, stupid, stupid! As if the Jihadis needed another reason to undermine the Iraqi government as 'pawns of the Crusader Zionist Jews'... Dumbasses.

Bush was right on with the Korea issue, though. If one of the biggest criticisms of the US today is 'unilateralism', then why is it advisable for America to cut its own deal with North Korea and not take the neighbors into account? The US won't have to deal with the DPRK's belligerence: S. Korea, Japan, and China will. So they need to be included. Going one-on-one with nuclear nutboy without giving the others a say in it is not a good idea.

Kerry made good points and Bush failed to press his advantages, and stumbled many times in what should have been his best area. But one comment I read on a blog on the way here was that "Kerry neded to draw blood but didn't". I think that is accurate-- he did very well, and Bush flubbed it, but Kerry needed to walk away from this debate with a clear victory.

It is a draw, but a Bush can weather a draw better than Kerry can. Teh next debate is on domestic policy, which Bush will have some trouble with, especially if he performs this bad. It is still anyone's game.

Concensus of the three guys that watched the debate with me: if this is the best our leadership pool can come up with at home, we need a third party. One guy is still voting for Bush regardless, another seemed to feel that Bush walked away from this wearing a dress.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2004-09-30 11:44pm

Durandal wrote:The MSNBC internet poll is 70/30 in favor of Kerry. The CNN internet poll is about 80/20 in favor of Kerry. But those polls aren't the most reliable. Still, that's a pretty huge disparity.

Definately wait for Gallup. As much as I like CNN, 80/20 isn't happening until you run Robo-Clinton vs. a clone of Hitler.

Iceberg · Post by **Iceberg** » 2004-09-30 11:49pm

SirNitram wrote:
Durandal wrote:The MSNBC internet poll is 70/30 in favor of Kerry. The CNN internet poll is about 80/20 in favor of Kerry. But those polls aren't the most reliable. Still, that's a pretty huge disparity.
Definately wait for Gallup. As much as I like CNN, 80/20 isn't happening until you run Robo-Clinton vs. a clone of Hitler.

Poll update: According to Gallup, 53% of those polled believed that Kerry won the debate, compared to 37% for Bush with 10% undecided.

jegs2 · Post by **jegs2** » 2004-09-30 11:52pm

Iceberg wrote:Poll update: According to Gallup, 53% of those polled believed that Kerry won the debate, compared to 37% for Bush with 10% undecided.

Okay, now that is surprising. While I support President Bush, to me it looked like he got his fourth point of contact handed to him by Kerry, but then I had low expectations of Bush in the first place.

Veramocor · Post by **Veramocor** » 2004-09-30 11:52pm

SirNitram wrote:
Durandal wrote:The MSNBC internet poll is 70/30 in favor of Kerry. The CNN internet poll is about 80/20 in favor of Kerry. But those polls aren't the most reliable. Still, that's a pretty huge disparity.
Definately wait for Gallup. As much as I like CNN, 80/20 isn't happening until you run Robo-Clinton vs. a clone of Hitler.

Is robot Clinton, human clinton with some robotic parts, like a robotic heart and penis. Becuase then he'd be more of a cyborg. Or is robot clinton a complete robot with the AI to match human clinton's personality?

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2004-09-30 11:52pm

SirNitram wrote: Definately wait for Gallup. As much as I like CNN, 80/20 isn't happening until you run Robo-Clinton vs. a clone of Hitler.

Agreed, but it gives us a good early look. I think 65-70% in favor of Kerry on this debate makes the most sense. The best thing about this debate for Kerry is that it is likely to give him some breathing room in key states (Pennsylvania, Ohio and Washington) and also give him some fresh support in others (Florida and Iowa for example).

Iceberg · Post by **Iceberg** » 2004-09-30 11:54pm

This is an early poll, keep in mind. Numbers may fluctuate overnight; I doubt the Zogby poll will be up before tomorrow morning.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2004-09-30 11:57pm

Who the FUCK are these undecided people?! I mean seriously, this is not a fucking test, either one guy did better or not. GODDAMNIT I hate people who simply can't see something and make a decision one way or the other.

DPDarkPrimus · Post by **DPDarkPrimus** » 2004-10-01 12:00am

Oh, Jesus Christ... the second thing out of the Fox News reporters mouth about Kerry was his fucking manicure! WHAT THE HELL IS WITH YOU PEOPLES' FINGER FETISH?!

If I never hear the word "manicure" ever again, it won't be soon enough.

Agrajag · Post by **Agrajag** » 2004-10-01 12:00am

I think this was a mixed debate. I think Bush was his own worst enemy in it but also got in some very good punches. He looked like he was going to fall asleep a couple of times, stammered often and sat there silent far too often. I also was put off by his constantly hitting the same single note on "mixed messages". WE GET IT....MOVE ON. In addition, he continually went over the time allowed and was always the one to push for the rebuttal.

That said, I think Kerry could have EASILY won this debate if he had countered just a few of the things Bush said. To my complete astonishment, he never did. Bush kept hitting him on mixed messages and while Kerry did say Bush sends them, he could have said, "Let's get this flip-flop thing resolve right now. You've changed your positions continually. You said that Congress was voting, not for war, but to give you a weapon to KEEP THE PEACE. You were against the 9/11 commission, then for it, against an intelligence director, then for it, against him having any power, then for it and there is no bigger mixed message than cutting the health care for the kids you're sending into harms way.

I do believe, in the end, it will come out that Kerry won this debate but he should have dominated it and didn't. Bush gave him every opportunity.

Agrajag · Post by **Agrajag** » 2004-10-01 12:05am

I would have also nailed Bush on the wimpy comment about "getting the casualty reports and seeing the situation on TV." WHAT?@?!?

Kerry LIVED it and understands FULLY what those things mean. I'd have said something like, "you're as disconnected about this as your father was about the price of milk."

Post by **Coyote** » 2004-10-01 12:06am

Stravo wrote:Who the FUCK are these undecided people?! I mean seriously, this is not a fucking test, either one guy did better or not. GODDAMNIT I hate people who simply can't see something and make a decision one way or the other.

Not always that simple. Kerry owned Bush like a prison ho as far as style, delivery, organization, clarity, and manner. But he didn't really say anything. He also presented himself only as the fixer of Bush's mistakes-- not as the initiator of new dynamics. He has plans but doesn't explain how he'll implement them.

Bush did nothing to shine-- he was poorly organized, cannot handle the pressure of off-the-cuff speaking, and looked visibly shaken. But I thought he did actually make some good points in that convoluted mess of stammering he did. And he stayed consistent, which is pretty much all he needs to do in the face of Kerry. But he also failed to be an inspiring leader type.

So yeah, I walked away from this still convinced that neither have done nothing to earn my vote.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2004-10-01 12:07am

My roommate and I will write in Frank Stallone and Billy Dee Williams.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2004-10-01 12:09am

My roommate and I will write in Frank Stallone and Billy Dee Williams.

Post by **Coyote** » 2004-10-01 12:13am

Stravo wrote:Who the FUCK are these undecided people?! I mean seriously, this is not a fucking test, either one guy did better or not. GODDAMNIT I hate people who simply can't see something and make a decision one way or the other.

Not always that simple. Kerry owned Bush like a prison ho as far as style, delivery, organization, clarity, and manner. But he didn't really say anything. He also presented himself only as the fixer of Bush's mistakes-- not as the initiator of new dynamics. He has plans but doesn't explain how he'll implement them.

Bush did nothing to shine-- he was poorly organized, cannot handle the pressure of off-the-cuff speaking, and looked visibly shaken. But I thought he did actually make some good points in that convoluted mess of stammering he did. And he stayed consistent, which is pretty much all he needs to do in the face of Kerry. But he also failed to be an inspiring leader type.

So yeah, I walked away from this still convinced that neither have done nothing to earn my vote.

Iceberg · Post by **Iceberg** » 2004-10-01 12:18am

Keep in mind that this was only the first debate, and the one on foreign policy, which is the area where Bush is (supposedly) the strongest. The Bush camp's spin of "Kerry won but who cares?" is actually a massive victory for Kerry - they forced the Bush camp to back away from the one thing that could have won the election for Bush. To see Bush flailing in what is arguably his strongest suit is going to have serious repercussions five weeks from now at the ballot box.

At this moment, I think Bush has effectively lost the election.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2004-10-01 12:21am

Iceberg wrote: At this moment, I think Bush has effectively lost the election.

As much as I despise the man I won't make that statement. Kerry's poll numbers aren't that great and he has a ways to go. The man is losing NJ for Christ's sake.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2004-10-01 12:22am

Iceberg wrote:Keep in mind that this was only the first debate, and the one on foreign policy, which is the area where Bush is (supposedly) the strongest. The Bush camp's spin of "Kerry won but who cares?" is actually a massive victory for Kerry - they forced the Bush camp to back away from the one thing that could have won the election for Bush. To see Bush flailing in what is arguably his strongest suit is going to have serious repercussions five weeks from now at the ballot box.

At this moment, I think Bush has effectively lost the election.

Sorry, but I think thats wishful thinking at this point. Bushy came into the debate with a point lead in general and damn good numbers in the 'battleground states'.

While there is still plenty of time left for those numbers to be reversed, this one debate isn't it. Kerry will get a bounce from it, but even that bounce might deflate over the course of the next week, or month.

Kerry needed a curbstomping total victory here, he got a TKO.